Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Ciao bro!

GlennB said:
Patrick1000, what happened to the India trip?
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I am going Glenn. Thanks for the fun. Will be back I imagine, though to be honest, I am far from sure. Hope you were not bothered by my shenanigans, as I was not by yours. As Michael Corleone would say, "only business Glenn". Anyway, ciao bro! Pat
 
Ciao to you ApolloGnomon

ApolloGnomon said:
How did the CAPCOM learn about the laser being fired? From Walter Cronkite, who had breathless but uncorrect information from a field reporter.

Misinformation repeated is still misinformation. The only sources for the information "LRRR reflection returned on 20th" are faulty. Mission control was not in charge of Lick Observatory, they were not AT the observatory, and the only way they knew what was happening in the outside world was from television which was WRONG.

Television reported the laser return. Television was wrong.

Scientific write-ups of the event ALL AGREE that there was no laser return on the 20th.

Lick Observatory did not have the correct coordinates on the 20th and the pulse receive timing was wrong, having been programed for the distance from the moon to the USGS Benchmark out in the parking lot not the actual location of the telescope.

Despite the errors in coordinates laser pulses were finally returned on the 1st of August. There were no returns on the 20th. NONE. Only Cronkite thought so, having been given bad data. Mission control, watching tv, thought Cronkite's report was reliable.

The Mission Report lists the LRRR as mission success not for the Lick returns but for Armstrong actually placing the thing on the moon. If he had aborted the landing or something the LRRR would not be listed as an accomplished goal.

And anyway, even if Lick somehow managed to get the data and read a laser on the 20th that wouldn't automatically "disprove" the validity of the rocks. It would cause one to reexamine the data of the rocks in greater detail. But the existence and veracity of the rocks is separate data from the stupid laser pulse.

Bah.
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The Chronkite story may be apocryphal , but there is no question, the other part, the part about the reporter at Lick Observatory believing he had the scoop of the century in telling the world the LRRR had been targeted on the night of the landing, that was true. Wish I could write more ApolloGnomon, but I am flat out beat. I think it will have to be after I get back for any more battle chat.
It was fun. Hopefully, I 'll come back, but to be honest, I have so much to do now away from this stuff, not that it is not worth our attention. Anyhoo, Ciao! Pat
 
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Patrick1000 said:
The Chronkite story may be apocryphal , but there is no question the other part, the part about the reporter at Lick Observatory believing he had the scoop of the century in telling the world the LRRR had been targeted on the night of the landing.
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Yes. To unpack your statement above, the reporter (wrongly) thought he had "the scoop of the century" and Cronkite repeated the mistake on air.

Glad we finally agree. Too bad that completely destroys your position on Lick having the coordinates on the 20th.

Have a nice Freshman year, Patrick1000. Hope your dorm is nice. If you were to come back and admit you were chain yanking and ask honestly and nicely for academic help some of us would be glad to do so. If you continue to lie, though, you will continue to get no respect whatsoever.
 
ApolloGnomon said:
Freshman orientation hasn't demanded as much of his attention as he thought. Just wait until classes start.
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I'll tell you what I do do ApolloGnomon. Believe it or not, I really am a writer. Well, we all are writers, but I do it as a job sometimes, whether freelance or other things. I'll be writing some medical reports for the United Nations. Actually, the reports are written already, but the reports are ever so terse. They need some help. I am sort of well known for that, even though I began writing medical stuff as an epidemiological statistician. My prose caught the eye of some, and the rest as they say, is history.

So I am lucky that way. I have traveled much in my personal life, but as a medical writer, I have been to China, India, Italy, Japan, Philippines, Mexico, Brazil and Chile. I am very fit, but still, at 53, it is harder for me than it was when I first did any of this at age 33, exactly 20 years ago.

You probably could/can figure out "who I am now" , not Jarrah White!!!!! He's Australian, is he not? I have never been there.

Funny, after all that quarreling over Apollo for the last 2 weeks, I feel as though you are my friend. That said, I somehow doubt the feeling is mutual.

In all honesty Apollo, perhaps you guys have been at this longer than me, but I feel my familiarity with the source materials is as good as "yours" for the most part. By that I do not mean you per se, but the average Apollo Believer. I also think I am much much better at maths, not you in particular, but your group. Perhaps that is not fair because I went to school for so long for that, but still, this is obvious to me. My prose helps and hurts. For "scientific types, perhaps hurts, for "literary types" it's a huge plus.

I'll end there. I must sleep a bit. Gdbye ApolloGnomon. Perhaps I shall return.

PS Last thought, think of me what you will, I have exposed great weaknesses in your side's position, HOAX be true or not. You and Matt and the others need to work on the "coordinate thing" . It's a problem for you. I imagine everyone on the "outside" of our debate directly can see this at least a little.
 
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Redtail said:
Then you won't have a problem pointing out where you answered it.
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Redtail, one answer to the what coordinates is the Remingtone Stone article; 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. We have covered that. The when I gave in parts, after Neil's first step per Stone, but still close to then, commencing just after the LRRR was put down per National Geographic. Wish I could write more, but even for me, this is a bit difficult given my fatigue.

As to the others, 50/50, I'll be back. I have way too much to do to indulge in this as I have recently. I have been on Sabbatical from one of my jobs and had time, but now must return to work. I won't do any of this stuff away from home. I pass my free time reading and playing chess. This activity is a tad stressful, not to my liking when I am writing. Nor have I time for it. Having said that , it is very important material.

As I said to one of the others, false bravado or not, your side is very vulnerable here. by here I refer the approach I have been using against you. The narrative is the key. My opinion, and go ahead and blow a fuse if you like, I still think it is true. I spent all my free time , all of it, studying Apollo for the last 4 months, I submit, position HB vs AB aside, I know the source materials, not to mention the pop materials, as well or better than most on your side. You may disagree with my take, but that is a fact I believe with respect to knowing what is where. "What is on the shelf", I believe I know as well or better than many of you, most of your really. Not to say that I am correct in all my opinions, but I know your books.

I will pass out now. Wish I could write more, but need rest and then off. Pat
 
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ApolloGnomon said:
Yes. To unpack your statement above, the reporter (wrongly) thought he had "the scoop of the century" and Cronkite repeated the mistake on air.

Glad we finally agree. Too bad that completely destroys your position on Lick having the coordinates on the 20th.

Have a nice Freshman year, Patrick1000. Hope your dorm is nice. If you were to come back and admit you were chain yanking and ask honestly and nicely for academic help some of us would be glad to do so. If you continue to lie, though, you will continue to get no respect whatsoever.
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I do not know how important my position was after all ApolloGnomon. Perhaps when I return I will write an essay about Apollo. My friends encouraged me to do one, so I may. But I got out of this what I needed. Not that the "truth" isn't important, but more important to realize when you are and are not a jerk and I was a jerk to X, so hope I learned. that may not make sense to you, but I dare say I am a little older, maybe not, but probably. Not that age is wisdom, but it changes things. So what if they did or did not walk on the moon? By so what I mean what happened between me and X was more important in my life and I botched it. So if I learn from that, hope I did, then Apollo one way or the other is much less important.

That said, I imagine when I return I will "look" for more evidence of foreknowledge. That is my original idea and it is a good one. If Apollo is FRAUD, and I do not know if it is or is not, but if it is, this is the way to attack it. I say this because for your side, the rocks, the photos, the trajectories are taken off the table. I can eviscerate the strength of your position by adopting this line of attack. hen we sort of become equals. Pat
 
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Patrick1000 said:
Redtail, one answer to the what coordinates is the Remingtone Stone article; 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. We have covered that. The when I gave in parts, after Neil's first step per Stone, but still close to then, commencing just after the LRRR was put down per National Geographic. Wish I could write more, but even for me, this is a bit difficult given my fatigue.

As to the others, 50/50, I'll be back. I have way too much to do to indulge in this as I have recently. I have been on Sabbatical from one of my jobs and had time, but now must return to work. I won't do any of this stuff away from home. I pass my free time reading and playing chess. This activity is a tad stressful, not to my liking when I am writing. Nor have I time for it. Having said that , it is very important material.

As I said to one of the others, false bravado or not, your side is very vulnerable here. by here I refer the approach I have been using against you. The narrative is the key. My opinion, and go ahead and blow a fuse if you like, I still think it is true. I spent all my free time , all of it, studying Apollo for the last 4 months, I submit, position HB vs AB aside, I know the source materials, not to mention the pop materials as well or better than most on your side. You may disagree with my take, but that is a fact I believe with respect to knowing what is where. "What is on the shelf", I believe I know as well or better than many of you, most of your really. Not o say that I am correct in all my opinions, but I know you books.

I will pass out noe. Wish I could write more, but need rest and then off. Pat
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Uh-uh... a wall of text to say "I don't know".
 
Advice?

Redtail said:
Uh-uh... a wall of text to say "I don't know".
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Last comment to you Redtail. I have the privilege of addressing you one last time. Take or leave my advice. I have worked in academic medicine 25 years. Not that this is the same, but for what it is worth, consider;

If I say that Remington Stone's article more or less makes a claim that the coordinates of Tranquility Base are 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east and that those coordinates were given to the people at that facility shortly after Neil Armstrong first stepped on the moon, any one who reads the article knows this to be the case in a broad sense. You come across as sort of not being there, intentionally so Redtail. Look, it makes no difference to me. There is a very good chance I will never debate you again. And of course, you are welcome to your opinion, but I would suggest, you need to come at me with something substantive. So if you do not like Stone's accounting, what do you like and how are you supporting that? Because you have a majority opinion on your side as an Apollo Believer does not mean you look OK when you do this. Blow a fuse if you like, but I see you this way and my friends did too that looked over my shoulder off an on for the last 2 weeks and every one of them is an Apollo Believer like you.

Ditto for the National Geographic thing. Weaver can be interpreted in several ways, but most would suggest he says Armstrong puts the LRRR down and not too long after Wampler gives Stone instructions to commence firing. Even if you do not agree with this interpretation, it is clear to most in some general broad sense this is what Weaver probably means to say in the National Geographic article and you need to say why that is the case or is not the case. You and others come of as smug. Please do not take that as a criticism because what I mean is you are so firm in your position, you sort of go, "so what" to everything, even acknowledging the fundamentals.

Playing, teasing as I was, fairly or unfairly at times, perhaps not you, but some of your colleagues were very intimidated by me at times because of their "smugness" they could not "begin" in a sense when confronted with a real real HARD strong pointed fact against them. Like when X used my own reference to begin his argument and I threw it in his face. My being malicious and piling on was completely uncalled for. But the debating point was made.

It is advice. Perhaps Stone is full of it and so is Weaver, but you need to show everyone that you know what they are talking about or it will appear as though you are the one who does not know what you are talking about. Kick and scream and call me a jerk all you like. But I guarantee that if you pay attention to what I just said, you will become better in the art of debate.

Perhaps you all will call me patronizing for saying this, but then I will again call you smug. You have to soften a little and say, "I see what you are saying, but.....". AND, I am not claiming myself to be "open" and "acknowledging as often as it would help me in a debate. But you probably noticed me trying on some level , despite time constraints to take a shot at most questions and acknowledge their substance given my limited background.

Just advice Redtail. thanks. Pat
 
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Poor Patrick1000. It seems he hasn't slept all night. He's been posting continuously for the past 12 hours at least...

ETA: I think, also, that we should all be extremely flattered that we are so important to Patrick1000 that he refuses sleep and skips intercontinental flights just to hang out with us. He puts his job on the line just to throw words at us. He must think very highly of us.
 
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Cl1mh4224rd said:
Poor Patrick1000. It seems he hasn't slept all night. He's been posting continuously for the past 12 hours at least...

ETA: I think, also, that we should all be extremely flattered that we are so important to Patrick1000 that he refuses sleep and skips intercontinental flights just to hang out with us. He puts his job on the line just to throw words at us. He must think very highly of us.
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It is true, right/wrong, dumb or not, as I said above, on my sabbatical, I have spent all my free time on Apollo, all of it. I did go swimming yesterday and a touch of work as well. but I also type much much much faster than you I would imagine Cl1mh4224rd, perhaps not but probably. anyway, your point is correct, as I said above, all of my free time has gone into this. Not sure what else to say except it is not, was not, meant to flatter. It was for me, I wanted to match wits with you. I absolutely did this for myself. That should be clear to X, as much as I regret what happened. It did show the depth of my understanding on a dozen levels, even the dark ones.
 
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Patrick1000 said:
Last comment to you Redtail. I have the privilege of addressing you one last time. Take or leave my advice. I have worked in academic medicine 25 years. Not that this is the same, but for what it is worth, consider;

If I say that Remington Stone's article more or less makes a claim that the coordinates of Tranquility Base are 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east and that those coordinates were given to the people at that facility shortly after Neil Armstrong first stepped on the moon, any one who reads the article knows this to be the case in a broad sense. You come across as sort of not being there, intentionally so Redtail. Look, it makes no difference to me. There is a very good chance I will never debate you again. And of course, you are welcome to your opinion, but I would suggest, you need to come at me with something substantive. So if you do not like Stone's accounting, what do you like and how are you supporting that? Because you have a majority opinion on your side as an Apollo Believer does not mean you look OK when you do this. Blow a fuse if you like, but I see you this way and my friends did too that looked over my shoulder off an on for the last 2 weeks and every one of them is an Apollo Believer like you.

Ditto for the National Geographic thing. Weaver can be interpreted in several ways, but most would suggest he says Armstrong puts the LRRR down and not too long after Wampler gives Stone instructions to commence firing. Even if you do not agree with this interpretation, it is clear to most in some general broad sense this is what Weaver probably means to say in the National Geographic article and you need to say why that is the case or is not the case. You and others come of as smug. Please do not take that as a criticism because what I mean is you are so firm in your position, you sort of go, "so what" to everything, even acknowledging the fundamentals.

Playing, teasing as I was, fairly or unfairly at times, perhaps not you, but some of your colleagues were very intimidated by me at times because of their "smugness" they could not "begin" in a sense when confronted with a real real HARD strong pointed fact against them. Like when X used my own reference to begin his argument and I threw it in his face. My being malicious and piling on was completely uncalled for. But the debating point was made.

It is advice. Perhaps Stone is full of it and so is Weaver, but you need to show everyone that you know what they are talking about or it will appear as though you are the one who does not know what you are talking about. Kick and scream and call me a jerk all you like. But I guarantee that if you pay attention to what I just said, you will become better in the art of debate.

Perhaps you all will call me patronizing for saying this, but then I will again call you smug. You have to soften a little and say, "I see what you are saying, but.....". AND, I am not claiming myself to be "open" and "acknowledging as often as it would help me in a debate. But you probably noticed me trying on some level , despite time constraints to take a shot at most questions and acknowledge their substance given my limited background.

Just advice Redtail. thanks. Pat
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... Two walls of text to say "I don't know"....
 
Oh, good heavens. Is he still claiming to be a doctor, and an adult? And now he's an "epidemiological statistician"? And bragging about his writing? Claiming that he actually gets paid for it? *snort*

You know, I am not and never have been a professional writer. But I have been paid to write, both directly as a stringer for a large city newspaper, and indirectly preparing and editing reports for my engineering work. (And, yes, I actually have prepared a couple of presentations for a UN committee to be presented by someone else, but PowerPoint != writing.) One of the most important abilities demonstrated by a real writer is brevity; as Mark Twain said, one must "eschew surplusage".

Poor Patrick1000/fattydash/DoctorTea/BFischer/<and many more> not only writes like the juvenile he is, and not only does his ability, such as it is, vary with the Red Bull concentration in his bloodstream; but he manifestly lacks the ability to say things clearly and concisely, as a true writer would. It makes his posts even more tedious to read than their pompous, mendacious, repetitive, and self-contradictory content.
 
So wow Patrick1000 has claimed both that he has proven the Apollo mission was a fake and hasn't.

Bad writing, continual lying and a good demonstration of how to act like a kook on the internet.

Well we did work on a good recipe for crab salad the results are here:

2 cans of crab meat (much better with fresh of course)
3 packages (30 individual) crab meat fingers (fish cakes)
1 bunch of green onions
1 stalk of celery
1 ½ cups of Mayonnaise
½ juice of a lemon
2 TSP of pepper

1. Break up crab meat fingers into small pieces.
2. Chop green onions and celery into small pieces and add to bowl.
3. Mix in mayonnaise and other ingredients
4. Mix well.
5. Tastes better if stored in the refrigerator for eight hours prior to eating

So we all got SOMETHING out of dealing with the troll

Adieu
 
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