Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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ApolloG, the Lick people have the coordinates long after this. this transcript section is from well after the EVA. The Lick Observatory Staff actually received the coordinates while the astronauts were walking on the moon. So this part of the transcript you've quoted is not relevant. But I honestly appreciate the honest effort with a concrete proposed counter to my posts. and of course I won't tease any body any more now that we are actually debating. I am sure its more than clear I engaged in what was admittedly adolescent behavior only to push some of you into actually debating me on this point and not continue filibustering. thanks ApolloG! Pat

bolded is wrong

Do you know how to read the time code? I'm using the ALSJ link in my sig. There you will find transcripts of the voice comms. The numbers are part of the "countdown" to zero, when the vehicle is launched, continuing forwards.

hours:minutes:seconds (since liftoff)

"102:45:57 Duke: We copy you down, Eagle.

103:06:58 Collins: Okay. Roger. Understand. Based on the targeted landing site; T1, 104:32:18; T2, 104:37:28, and 4 miles south.

107:11:08 Collins: Roger. Copy. Mike 0.7 and 8.0. The only thing is, my best tool for looking is the sextant and if I'm going to crank the sextant up, I might as well let P22 go at the same time, or don't you think so?

109:24:13 Armstrong: I'm going to step off the LM now. (Long Pause) "

Thus, Collins was using the sextant 2 hours before "first steps." The CSM orbited of the moon took about 2 hours -- thus Collins had 3 orbital passes to check the map and verify the position, working back and forth with Houston.
 
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Good point Apollo. But my point stands with respect to their "landing" at an unplanned site. Not far from the site as originally planned , but off by far enough to scam the pants off us and the $$$$$$ bucks $$$$$$ out of my mom.

Goalpost shifting noted.
 
Goalpost shifting noted.

Shall we get back to the coordinate questions ApolloG? So if Collins did not determine them with the sextant and other equipment available from 60 plus miles up, how were the coordinates that were given to the Lick Observatory Staff determined?
 
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Fine abaddon, i respect you, honestly do. I find this to be where my energy should be in terms of debate, so if you change your mind about mixing it up, I look forward to your challenge.

Do you really?

OK then, explain why Armstrong and Aldrin placed the LRRR on 21st July, but Lick did not find it until 1st August?
 
Shall we get back to the coordinate questions ApolloG? So if Collins did not determine them with the sextant and other equipment available from 60 plus miles up, how were the coordinates that were given to the Lick Observatory Staff determined?

Please read teh thread. He DID use the sextant - 2 hours before the first steps
 
Wrong.


From Apollo Lunar Surface Journal: Apollo 11 Post-Landing Activities.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/frame.html

URL of flown map used by Collins: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/LAM2_CMP-flown-sm.jpg

URL of figure 5-14 of Apollo Mission Report: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11mrf5-14.jpg

Collins used the Sextant on multiple passes.


thanks for pointing that out about the time issue AolloG. In any event 0.7 and 8.0 given as coordinates to check are not commensurate with a determination of lunar surface coordinates specified to the thousandths of a degree. Likewise, Collins had no maps on board featuring detail of the lunar surface commensurate with a determination made to an accuracy featuring seconds of arc as significant figures; 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east and as discussed in our other thread, Buzz Aldrin claimed at the time of the Eagle's star chart sale that this chart, the LM's own star chart , was the most important tool Buzz and Neil had in determining the LM position on the moon. The LM star chart as we all agree is used in conjunction with the LM AOT and not the CM sextant and there is nothing in the Apollo Mission Report that supports coordinate determinations as ever having been made by Collins and his sextant. The Mission Report includes the AOT, PNGS, AGS, maps/photography, rendezvous radar, tracking accelerometer calculations, but nowhere do sextant/maps/CM determinations appear. We may comfortably conclude the sextant was not employed in determining the coordinates as given to the Lick Observatory staff. And of course we have Michael Collis' own words from his book, CARRYING THE FIRE, where he states explicitly the ONLY tools available are "crude maps".
 
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Must be pretty dumb people. Give it up with the ego massage, it's just mental masturbation, and nobody wants to see that in public.


So you are going to abandon this thread?

No of course not abaddon, the poop thing is too good. but come on now, have you ever in all your years of doing things seen so many super smart Apollo Program Believers , Apollo Program Apologists seem ever so backed into a corner and crazy with panic as to how they are going to find their way back to anything that remotely resembles a reasonable degree of confidence? X ran for cover pretty fast. where the heck is sts? you'd think he'd want a piece of this. He must be studying the same materials I have been for the last 4 months, looking for a way out. Tell sts I'll shoot him a script for xanax if he gets too stressed out over this one.

No abaddon, I won't abandon the poop thread, but I am just LOVING the other one. I feel almost as though I have achieved a state of grace. And you guys thought I couldn't write.
 
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By the way, what did the pogo thing that guy was talking about have to do with poop? Does the rocket pogo when the poop gets stuck in the intake?
 
Salmonella is one of several bugs the docs would worry about were this real.

They rejected it though (or, in your version, they decided that they would have rejected it, if the situation was playing out for real).

You're the one who raised the fear of salmonella infection as a reason to abort the mission. So I'd like to know why. May we hear your medical opinion of how likely you believe it is that one of the astronauts could have been incubating a salmonella infection for such a long time before falling ill?
 
"Pogo" is a dangerous behavior in launch vehicles caused when the vertical thrust couples with the inertia of the propellant. This sets up an instability where thrust pushes more propellant than requested into the combustion chamber, which surges, creating additional thrust as well as a backpressure that momentarily opposes additional propellant entering the chamber. The instability can get worse and worse over time, leading to vertical vibration in the rocket itself. Hence, "pogo," accelerating as though on a giant pogo stick.

This is extremely hazardous for several reasons. First, rocket engines are designed to work in only a narrow range of mixture ratios and flow rates. The pogo effect moves you away from the ideal mixture in an uncontrollable fashion. This leads to less efficient combustion, which can quickly lead to heating or erosion of the rocket components themselves, in turn leading to a large, smoky fireball.

Second, the fueling systems upstream of the rocket engine are extremely high performance and fragile. Ever have "water hammer" in your house? Imagine it in plumbing that carries 100,000 gallons a minute, fed by boost pump turbines running at 200,000 RPM. Oh, and the fluid is at cryogenic temperatures. And unlike water, it readily explodes.

Third, the vibration can cause secondary damage in the rocket, and structural vibration coupling can exacerbate the pogo effect even more. Some failure mechanisms are "hard," like rivets coming loose or tanks buckling, but there are also "soft" failures like navigation sensors becoming less accurate and thrust vector control being less precise, which can in turn increase aerodynamic loads and heating on the vehicle.

The Saturn rocket programme implemented many fixes to its rockets to fight the "pogo" effect, most having to do with careful balancing of pipes and inclusion of complicated pressure reservoirs and self-regulating systems. This is part of the cost of doing business in space -- there are still a lot of things we don't know about building good rockets, and quite a few of those things can be deadly. The most famous example was on Apollo 13, where pogo grew so severe that the center engine of the second stage automatically shut down during the burn. Shutting down a rocket engine is a perilous thing... but we got away with it.

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After reading this thread, I see no evidence that the poor nut who initiated it has any ability to comprehend what the rest of you are saying. It's rather sad.

Boy, for a while I really had lost perspective. I was hanging out over at that other thread I had opened where basically nothing more was going on than seeing the entire edifice of the bogus Apollo monolith come tumbling down in half an evening's time, when I should have been here all along on my original thread studying this mother of all non sequiturs by Mackay.

As everyone knows, we had been discussing abort options in the context of the Borman poop fest. I really did wonder initially what the pogo had to do with poop. Then it dawned on me that what Mackay was getting at was that the pogo phenomenon occurred when poop got sucked into the rocket's fuel inject system and created a mixture far too rich for the ship to handle.

Chatting about this with a friend of mine who is an aerospace engineer, he corrected me after first complimenting me on a good guess. He said actually You would use the Borman poop to toss into the fuel mixture, kind of like a grenade, to defuse the pogo effect.

And here I thought this thread was a waist of time and Mackay's post was some kind of psychotic non sequitur. Why would I have ever wanted to have for a minute thought about starting that other more focused and productive thread?
 
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... Apologists seem ever so backed into a corner and crazy with panic as to how they are going to find their way back to anything that remotely resembles a reasonable degree of confidence? X ran for cover pretty fast. where the heck is sts? you'd think he'd want a piece of this. He must be studying the same materials I have been for the last 4 months, looking for a way out. Tell sts I'll shoot him a script for xanax if he gets too stressed out over this one.
I am really damned sick and tired of your denigration of those who disagree with you.
 
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Boy, for a while I really had lost perspective. I was hanging out over at that other thread I had opened where basically nothing more was going on than seeing the entire edifice of the bogus Apollo monolith come tumbling down in half an evening's time, when I should have been here all along on my original thread studying this mother of all non sequiturs by Mackay.

As everyone knows, we had been discussing abort options in the context of the Borman poop fest. I really did wonder initially what the pogo had to do with poop. Then it dawned on me that what Mackay was getting at was that the pogo phenomenon occurred when poop got sucked into the rocket's fuel inject system and created a mixture far too rich for the ship to handle.

Chatting about this with a friend of mine who is an aerospace engineer, he corrected me after first complimenting me on a good guess. He said actually You would use the Borman poop to toss into the fuel mixture, kind of like a grenade, to defuse the pogo effect.

And here I thought this thread was a waist of time and Mackay's post was some kind of psychotic non sequitur. Why would I have ever wanted to have for a minute thought about starting that other more focused and productive thread?

:id: :id::id::id::id::id:

...With special extra smiley for a self-derail via a day-old quoted post:
:dl:

Must be approaching time to triplicate the thread...
 
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Why would I have ever wanted to have for a minute thought about starting that other more focused and productive thread?

You think that's focussed and productive?

You could have stated your case concisely in a single post.

Instead of that, you wasted page after page trying to shift the burden of proof by alternately imploring and taunting everyone else to waste their time in a futile game of trying to discover whatever it was that you obviously thought was some kind of smoking gun.

Well, I've read the thread, and all I can see is you opining that the astroauts could not have come up with the landing site location given to Lick observatory. Still waiting for you to put some flesh on the bones of that opinion. If you were able, I imagine you would have done so by now.
 
Running in terror, eh? Falling like a house of cards? Wildly searching for anything to prop up their beliefs? Why, if I had a nickle for every hoax believer who thought they were accomplishing that, I wouldn't be busy replacing the mobo on an aging computer right now.

I wonder where this illusion comes from. Projection seems too simple. Wishful thinking doesn't seem adequate to create that level of delusion. Do they really think their silly ideas, based on a poor understanding of the Apollo Program, cause anyone actual worry?
 
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