Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[nomuse]

Oh I am sure there are 100s of coordinates nomuse. The challenge question was specific however. I asked specifically for the coordinates that were given to Lick observatory on the night of 07/20/1969. Only one set of coordinates were given and they were 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. So I understand your point, but the challenge question just asked for the coordinates given to Lick Observatory on the dramatic light of the landing. This way nomuse you see there is not the slightest hint of ambiguity, not a shred, not an iota. See how well that works out nomuse. ZERO AMBIGUITY. 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. Only set given. Shall we move on? I believe phantom and I may be making progress.

Not playing. I know this isn't the BAUT, but I have no interest in Twenty Questions regardless. Make a claim. Make it clearly. Defend it. Does this lie within your ability?

 

[Patrick1000]

I should say to be clear there, Reed's numbers are not 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. I should have said to be crystal clear,

"So the Lick Observatory staff were given the numbers 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east hours before Reed even arrived at Mission Control, let alone began to determine the Eagle's location and calculate a launch solution".

 

[PhantomWolf]

I have mentioned the Remington Stone article many times in my previous posts. I AM THE ONE WHO BROUGHT STONE'S ESSAY TO THE GROUP HERE, THAN YOU VERY MUCH. As mentioned , I have read this particular piece a hundred times easy and can cite much of it verbatim from memory. Care to challenge me on that?

I'd suggest that you re-read it, it answers many of your questions.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Yeah , amazing isn't it, people actually have paid to read my writing. I am more amazed than anyone. And I started at age 10 no less. Songs too. Pretty good, dontcha' think?

PM me the proof.

 

[nomuse]

Well for starters Red, the Lick Observatory staff were given 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east while the astronauts were still moon walking. Reed was sleeping then, read the book. He did not start working on his solution until after breakfast time. By then the Lick crew had been hammering away at 00 41 50 north and 23 26 00 east for hours. Note how I wrote 00 41 50 and not 00 41 15. Per X's reference, also one of my favorite references for this subject, they heard 15 as 50, so the Lick crew was 900 feet off there. Doesn't change what we are discussing here, but it is an interesting detail.

So the Lick Observatory staff knew the numbers before Reed calculated the numbers.

That's one explanation. Have you got another? Please, proceed.

Hoo golly. There couldn't possibly be another explanation! Must mean the whole thing was hoaxed.

Have you even LOOKED to see if there was an alternative? Here I thought you were lecturing other people on differential diagnosis. And yet, here you are you stopped at the vitals with diagnosis already in hand.

 

[Patrick1000]

I'd suggest that you re-read it, it answers many of your questions.

The article says the astronauts determined the coordinates phantom, but it doesn't say how they were determined. what do you think now about the method the astronauts used to determine the coordinates? Do you think they used "crude maps" as Michael Collins suggests is the only available method. One cannot come up with 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east using a sextant and a map as you originally suggested in your post first answering my question. The method employed to locate the LM is not discussed in the Remington Stone article phantom, so you have to come up with something new. I suggested you take a look at Reed's writing to get oriented to how the Mission Control crew viewed the situation. I think you are well on your was to a solution, we can work together on it as no one else seems to be game, except for maybe Stella. I am sure he'll turn up soon. Thanks for the very direct responses by the way. It is greatly appreciated. Pat

 

[Patrick1000]

Another suggestion for you primary source wise phantom, the Apollo 11 Mission Report lists all of the coordinate determinations for all of the methods employed. If you go to the other thread I started, I presented them and discussed them fairly thoroughly. Check over there for a bit more info and/or check the Mission Report for yourself. Section 5.

 

[Patrick1000]

Hoo golly. There couldn't possibly be another explanation! Must mean the whole thing was hoaxed.

Have you even LOOKED to see if there was an alternative? Here I thought you were lecturing other people on differential diagnosis. And yet, here you are you stopped at the vitals with diagnosis already in hand.

We are looking nomuse, we are exploring all possibilities here. Please present the alternatives. As I just pointed out to phantom, if you go to the Mission Report there is a litany of coordinates and with each set the method of their determination is cited as well. This was thoroughly discussed in the other thread, the "differential". Please check it out again, I think I did a fairly good job of presenting it. also, go to the Mission Report for yourself. No one is disputing your point. It is THE VERY THING WE ARE STUDYING IN THIS THREAD, YOU ARE PREACHING TO THE CHOIR AS THEY SAY.

 

[332nd]

Well for starters Red, the Lick Observatory staff were given 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east while the astronauts were still moon walking. Reed was sleeping then, read the book. He did not start working on his solution until after breakfast time. By then the Lick crew had been hammering away at 00 41 50 north and 23 26 00 east for hours. Note how I wrote 00 41 50 and not 00 41 15. Per X's reference, also one of my favorite references for this subject, they heard 15 as 50, so the Lick crew was 900 feet off there. Doesn't change what we are discussing here, but it is an interesting detail.

So the Lick Observatory staff knew the numbers before Reed calculated the numbers.

That's one explanation. Have you got another? Please, proceed.

Off the top of my head, Collins used a starmap & sextant & was right.

Armstrong, knowing the area very well, adjusted for the overshoot & was right.

Etc...

 

[abaddon]

Yeah , amazing isn't it, people actually have paid to read my writing. I am more amazed than anyone. And I started at age 10 no less. Songs too. Pretty good, dontcha' think?

Must be pretty dumb people. Give it up with the ego massage, it's just mental masturbation, and nobody wants to see that in public.

Oh jump over to the other thread nomuse, the real action is obviously there now. Why debate poopies when so much more is at stake over on the other side? Know what I mean?

So you are going to abandon this thread?

 

[Patrick1000]

Off the top of my head, Collins used a starmap & sextant & was right.

Armstrong, knowing the area very well, adjusted for the overshoot & was right.

Etc...

Red, read on a bit more, you'll see a map and sextant from an LM cannot come up with 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. People accuse me of patronizing/teasing. I will not be with you here. you are most fair and capable. Read on the subject. Think about it Red, a map and sextant from 60 plus miles up. see that 15 at the end of the north coordinate, that is 15 x 27.6 feet or a total of 412.5 feet. Collins is going to show with a map and sextant and star chart the LM is there within that degree of accuracy? Not possible. Additionally, the Mission Report itself lists all of the methods of coordinate determination. those methods include the use of the LM AOT but not the CM sextant. So NASA's primary source of/for this information shows your suggestion to not be correct. Read on yourself. It is an interesting subject to say the least and obviously one I consider ultimately to be most revealing.

 

[abaddon]

I'll rephrase my point about the Remington Stone article, no one ever showed it to me. I found it on my own along with other articles by the Lick Observatory scientists. How about taking a shot at my challenge questions abaddon. A lot more interesting than the microscope question, would you not agree.

I think not. I am not about to run about the interwebs at your beck and call. Do your own research.

You are making the affirmative claim, therefore the burden of proof rests with you.

Present your proof and sources and the we maybe could have a discussion.

Until then your not so subtle attempts to shift the burden of proof just won't wash. Sorry.

 

[abaddon]

I'll rephrase my point about the Remington Stone article, no one ever showed it to me. I found it on my own along with other articles by the Lick Observatory scientists. How about taking a shot at my challenge questions abaddon. A lot more interesting than the microscope question, would you not agree.

Oh, BTW that should be telescope, not microscope.

There is a difference, you know.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Additionally, the Mission Report itself lists all of the methods of coordinate determination. those methods include the use of the LM AOT but not the CM sextant. So NASA's primary source of/for this information shows your suggestion to not be correct.

Wrong.

107:10:06 McCandless: Columbia, this is Houston. Over.

107:10:13 Collins: Go ahead.

107:10:15 McCandless: On your next pass, Columbia, rather than performing a P22 as such, we would like you to look in the vicinity of the coordinates that we gave you, which is our best analysis based on math/physics and the trajectory. And we also have another set of coordinates that we would like you to search in the vicinity of. This last one being based on an interpretation of the geological features that were seen by the crew on their way down. The coordinates of this second site are Mike 0.7 and 8.0. I say again, Mike 0.7 and 8 (garbled) I say again, Mike 0.7 and 8.0. Over.

[This sextant target is about 3 kilometers north of the actual landing site, which is near Juliet 0.7 and 7.4. See Figure 5-14 in the Apollo 11 Mission Report. In the figure, each of the small squares is 1 kilometer on a side and the circles, which represent the approximate sextant field-of-view, are each about 3.2 km (2 miles) in diameter. See, also, the flown copy of LAM-2.]

107:11:08 Collins: Roger. Copy. Mike 0.7 and 8.0. The only thing is, my best tool for looking is the sextant and if I'm going to crank the sextant up, I might as well let P22 go at the same time, or don't you think so?

107:11:24 McCandless: Roger. If you want to go that way, crank it up, and then you can drive it around and look where you want.

107:11:33 Collins: Okay.

107:11:35 McCandless: And if you can find the LM, then by all means, track it or make a note of where it was, and we can track it on the next Rev. If you're ready, we have a REFSMMAT update that we can pass up to you at this time, if you will give us P00 and Accept. Over. (Pause)

From Apollo Lunar Surface Journal: Apollo 11 Post-Landing Activities.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/frame.html

URL of flown map used by Collins: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/LAM2_CMP-flown-sm.jpg

URL of figure 5-14 of Apollo Mission Report: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11mrf5-14.jpg

Collins used the Sextant on multiple passes.

 

[Patrick1000]

Ok, let's say Reed using the RR was the confirmation for the coordinates.

This shows the landing was faked how?

Nomuse accuses me of playing guessing games, just so there is no mistake about this, I of course care not to engage in such childish activities. I stated previously and will state here specifically again, the study of this subject leads to the conclusion that the LM coordinates, the exact coordinates, the coordinates given to the Lick Observatory staff on the night of 07/20/12969 were known independently of any determinations made by Reed or any of the other Mission Control staff. As they were known independently of Mission Control calculations, there was foreknowledge of those coordinates. The coordinates were known before the astronauts even touched down at 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. Since this can hardly be imagined to be so in any conceivable universe, knowing the coordinates, the exact landing coordinates, especially after GOING OFF COURSE, we conclude they never landed. It was a set up. there was an LRRR there at 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east beforehand. but there was no Eagle landing there . About that , we were conned. Fair enough, direct enough? you have access to the same materials with respect to this challenge. Suggest another explanation and prove me wrong. I honestly would like nothing more than to be proven wrong with respect to this. Fair enough Red?, Pat

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

So in spite of having this amazing "blood on their hands" foreknowledge they still fail to bounce off the reflector for nearly a week?

What kinda half-assed conspiracy was it, anyway?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Apparently.

 

[332nd]

Red, read on a bit more, you'll see a map and sextant from an LM cannot come up with 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. People accuse me of patronizing/teasing. I will not be with you here. you are most fair and capable. Read on the subject. Think about it Red, a map and sextant from 60 plus miles up. see that 15 at the end of the north coordinate, that is 15 x 27.6 feet or a total of 412.5 feet. Collins is going to show with a map and sextant and star chart the LM is there within that degree of accuracy? Not possible. Additionally, the Mission Report itself lists all of the methods of coordinate determination. those methods include the use of the LM AOT but not the CM sextant. So NASA's primary source of/for this information shows your suggestion to not be correct. Read on yourself. It is an interesting subject to say the least and obviously one I consider ultimately to be most revealing.

Sorry, but you're assuming he didn't have help from Armstrong & Aldrin on the ground. Not to mention you ignore Armstrong calling it. Also you over look Reed getting his timelines blurred.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

The Eagle didn't "go off course." Armstrong flew it manually over a crater full of rocks and picked a flatter landing spot 4 miles downrange of the autopilot target.

If you're going to get basic facts like this wrong there's no hope for your claim.

 

[Patrick1000]

The Eagle didn't "go off course." Armstrong flew it manually over a crater full of rocks and picked a flatter landing spot 4 miles downrange of the autopilot target.

If you're going to get basic facts like this wrong there's no hope for your claim.

Good point Apollo. But my point stands with respect to their "landing" at an unplanned site. Not far from the site as originally planned , but off by far enough to scam the pants off us and the $$$$$$ bucks $$$$$$ out of my mom.