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Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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I love how you went from "perhaps you are not familiar with" to:

How is it possible not to know this and think you're qualified to discuss astrophysics? This is basic, basic, basic undergraduate stuff. Go learn it and come back when you're ready to say something well-informed.


Nothing like building your own strawman so that you can watch it burn.


It's not a strawman. It is more than reasonable to challenge the qualifications of crackpots in general, and the electric Sun proponents in this discussion in particular. All too often crackpots make sweeping proclamations that real science has this-that-or-the-other-thing wrong, while at the same time demonstrating that they don't possess the qualifications to understand what it is they're criticizing.

The follow-up suggestion about learning the relevant material before wading headlong into a discussion on an issue which one is wholly unqualified to understand is just being a cooperative, helpful scientist and skeptic. It's what puts the "E" in JREF.

And to address the comments directly, it was another failed argument by complaint, a dishonest red herring, wholly unrelated to the substantive issue of the thread.
 
In fact the whole thing clearly resembles an electrical discharge inside a cloud covering.
Typical of you MM: You see bunnies in the clouds.

Intelligent people know that there can never be lightning in plasma because lightning requires the breakdown of a dielectric and plasma is not a dielectric medium - it conducts :jaw-dropp.
 
Take a look at the surface of the photosphere during that last flare sequence in SDO images Tim. You can see the excess energy flow up and through the photosphere. In fact the whole thing clearly resembles an electrical discharge inside a cloud covering. Now that the sun is more active, we can even see the materials being blown off the surface during flare activity. The coronal loops are not "heated" in some magical place in the sky, they come THROUGH the surface of the photosphere already radiating at millions of degrees Kelvin.

The energy associated with these high energy flares begins WAY below the surface of the photosphere and the effect of those million degree plasmas can be seen on the surface of the photosphere as they come up and through it's surface.


Absolute complete nonsense. Nobody can just look at a picture of the Sun and make any sort of valid scientific analysis. Nobody. That is looks-like-a-bunny science, the realm of cranks and crackpots. There's nothing quantitative or objective about it. It is especially prone to failure when the person attempting the analysis has absolutely no qualifications whatsoever to understand solar imagery.

There are methods for determining thermal characteristics at various depths in the solar atmosphere. It's pretty sound science, well understood, objective and quantitative. Nobody is missing the way those thermal characteristics change at different levels. Nobody besides the crackpots anyway. Hint: Measuring and analyzing the thermal characteristics of the solar atmosphere has something to do with using the various filters to obtain the data.
 
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Even compared to the atmosphere of Earth, the surface of the photosphere is "wispy thin" Tim.
Even compared to your usual ignoraqnce, MM, this is bad: The atmosphere of Earth is not a plasma.

That's because you folks can't seem to make up your minds. Sometimes it is supposedly (GM style) "opaque" when you wish it to act like a "black body" (at a single temp no less), and sometimes it's translucent too. :)
This is because us folks have the basic knowledge of physics that your lack :eye-poppi.
All plasmas are 'translucent' or 'opaque' to various degrees.
For a black body spectrum you need a dense plasma which means it has a small optical depth (i.e. is translucent or opaque).

Like all real emissions patterns from light plasma, the sun actually acts NOTHING like a pure "black body" at a single temperature. It has discharge process running through it that heat plasma to millions of degrees, both above and below the surface.
That is idiotic. No one claims that the coroan or of teh SUn at millions of degrees emit a blackbody spectrum.
The photosphere is where the light escapes from the Sun. It is this light that has a roughl;y blackbody spectrum.

You are persisting with your delusion that the photosphere is light.
Compared to other plasmas (with the obvious exception of plasmas further inside the Sun), the photosphere is enormously dense.

... The materials involved in such a process would have to be MUCH more dense than we observe anywhere near the surface.
You are just repeating your inability to learn some simple facts:
  1. The photosphere is defined as where light escapes from the Sun.
  2. The spectrum of the light that escapes from the Sun (i.e. emitted from the photosphere) is observed to be roughly a blackbody spectrum.
  3. Thus the empirical data is that the photosphere emits a roughly a blackbody spectrum.
That pointless BB calculation approximately does nothing to explain those million degree coronal loops, those X7 flares like we saw today, etc.
That is because it would be idiotic of someone of think that that valid BB calculation (i.e. that the photosphereis measured to emit a roughly black body spectrum) has anything to do with anything outside of the photosphere.

Not exactly. It just has to AVERAGE about the same temperature in every direction over BILLIONS OF LIGHT YEARS. Some of it can be warmer. Some of it can be cooler. It just has to have an AVERAGE that peaks at around 2K.
The CMB is measured to be to be at the same temperature, within about +/- 0.001 Kelvins everyhere throught the sky. Thus
First and foremost, it requires all of the plasma everywhere in the universe to be at the same temperature, within about +/- 0.001 Kelvins. All of it. Everywhere

Tim the original "calculation" for a "background temperature" of space was done a LONG time ago. Surely you don't believe that the universe has NO temperature (heat) that is related to the light and energy from stars? We already know for a FACT from the raw images that these very same wavelengths are generated by stars.
Still displaying your ignorance from the Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not? thread:
Eddington did not "predict" the CMB
  • The CMB is a blackbody spectrum, i.e. produced by radiation in thermal equilibrium.
  • Eddington looked at radiation in interstellar space which is not in thermal equilibrium: Radiation in interstellar space is about as far from thermodynamical equilibrium as it is possible to imagine ...".
It just so happens that the average temperature of the universe id close to the temperature of the CMB as expected.

We have been saying all along that the raw images DO NOT produce a 'perfect black body' at any wavelength.

One more time, MM: The raw image is contaminated by the foreground radiation, mostly from the Milky Way. To get the background radiation the foreground radiatioin has to be removed.
Is there something you canoot understand about removing conamination from images?

A nice diagram of the processing pipeline is on Max Tegmark's CMB data analysis center page (a bit out of data since it only goes to 1999).

Is that before or after you folks "discovered" that the universe is at least twice as "dusty" and twice as bright as you first thought?
http://www.space.com/5348-view-universe-suddenly-bright.html

Just how much brighter do you think that the universe would need to ne to turn an average density of 10-6/cm3 into a column density 1024 /cm2 ?

I think you really must not comprehend the concept of an "infinite" universe very well Tim. In Ari's universe, the universe doesn't move, it has not set age, and it has not set size. So what if it takes 2000 trillion light years?
That points out another problem with Ari's universe -we do not live in it :eye-poppi.
In his universe evey line of sight ends in a star. That means that the night sky must be as pright as the surface of a star in Ari's universe (Olbers' paradox).

You're essentially ignoring several key points. A static universe can be ANY size Tim, it's not limited to a set size like your "faster than light speed", physics defying, creation thingy.
You're essentially ignoring several key points MM.
 
Solar Photosphere and Optical Depth (again) III

Even compared to the atmosphere of Earth, the surface of the photosphere is "wispy thin" Tim. ... That's pretty darn thin Tim. White light penetrates our atmosphere without even working up a sweat and the atoms in our atmosphere are MUCH heavier than hydrogen and helium.


Like I said before ...
To begin with, the photosphere is not a "wispy" or "thin" plasma by any reasonable standard.


Your standard of "wispiness", comparing the solar photosphere to Earth's troposphere is extremely unreasonable. Earth's troposphere consists primarily of neutral N2 and O2 molecules (which together make up 99% of the entire atmosphere), along with trace smatterings of H2O, Argon, CO2, CH4, and a whole bunch of other semi-irrelevant stuff. Earth's atmosphere is transparent to eyeball light. However, it is as opaque as a "brick wall" to X-rays, gamma-rays, and large chunks of the infrared wavelength region (see Atmospheric electromagnetic opacity diagram courtesy of our old friend Wikipedia).

Whether an atmosphere is transparent, translucent, or opaque, and the degree to which it is any of those things, has absolutely not on thing to do with the number of particles to be found per unit volume. Rather, the degree to which the atmosphere is any of those things is solely and strongly dependent on the interaction between electromagnetic photons and the particles in the atmospheric gases, by absorption/emission and/or by simple scattering. The neutral molecular gases of Earth's atmosphere interact weakly with visible wavelengths of light. However, the ionized gases (i.e., plasma) of the solar photosphere will necessarily interact strongly with electromagnetic photons precisely because they are a plasma.

You have been arguing about this for years, always relying on your own fatally flawed intuition, and always ignoring every sense of science, every sense of physics. You ignore physics like it's a poison. We have been over this before, but you never learn.

From 23 April 2010:
The fact that the sun is made mostly of hydrogen is crucial, since we also know that, counterintuitively perhaps, the continuum opacity of stellar photospheres is dominated by the H- ion (e.g., Wildt, 1939; Massey & Bates, 1940; Chandrasekhar, 1945, a 5-part paper, all parts linked from this page; John, 1988; John, 1994; The Observation and Analysis of Stellar Photospheres by David Gray, 3rd edition 2005, pp. 154-157; Solar Astrophysics by Peter Foukal, 2nd edition 2004 section 5.3.2, pp. 149-150). Finally, there is quite good enough agreement between helioseismological observations, solar neutrino observations, and the standard astrophysical models of the sun, such that all of Mozina's alternate hypotheses are excluded with confidence (see, e.g., Bahcall & Ulrich, 1988; Bahcall, Pinsonneault, & Basu, 2001 and citations thereto for both papers).

From 22 April 2010:
One should also keep in mind that the continuum opacity of the solar photosphere is actually dominated by the H- ion; yep, negative hydrogen, believe it or not (e.g., The Observation and Analysis of Stellar Photospheres; David Gray, 3rd edition 2005, page 154; Wildt, 1939; Chandrasekhar, 1945 & citations thereto).

From 19 July 2009:
You clearly don't have any idea what the words optical depth mean, so let me fill you in. It's nothing more complicated than the absorption integrated along the path length. Every plasma has a path length. Every plasma has a wavelength dependent absorption spectrum. Therefore every plasma has an optical depth. It is therefore a necessary consequence of the laws of physics that if the optical depth is high enough then no photons at all will transmit through the plasma along the given path length. If you're going to tell me that sounds like something I just made up I am going to laugh in your face in a very insulting manner because it is a very insultingly stupid thing to say.

From 6 July 2009:
I told you once before that "thin" is irrelevant. You don't believe me of course, but that's no surprise. But I'll say it again anyway. "Thin" is irrelevant, whether you like it or not. We call it "physics", and the key concept here is optical depth. The optical depth of anything depends not only on "thin" or "thick" (both of which you have yet to quantitatively define), but on the absorption coefficient of the material at the wavelength(s) of interest. A strong absorption coefficient means strong absorption, even in a "thin" material, while a weak absorption coefficient can mean weak absorption, even for a "thick" material. After all, ordinary glass has about 1,000,000 times the mass density of the solar photosphere, and is "thick" by colloquial standards, but totally transparent to eyeball wavelengths of light, while totally opaque at other wavelengths.


And now we return to the present:
How is it possible not to know this and think you're qualified to discuss astrophysics? This is basic, basic, basic undergraduate stuff. Go learn it and come back when you're ready to say something well-informed.
Nothing like building your own strawman so that you can watch it burn.

There is nothing "strawmany" about it. Qualification is not necessarily having a degree, it's having a foundation of knowledge. You constantly rely on your ignorance and forsake knowledge. It's all about physics, which you choose to despise & ignore. It's all about science, which you choose to despise & ignore. It's all about knowledge, which you choose to despise & ignore. I, and others, have been telling you it's optical depth for years, but you ignore it every time and just continue to cascade one insult on top of another for years, treating knowledge like a psychic plague.

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Optical Depth
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Until you make the effort to learn what those words mean, you have no business, and should have no right at all, to talk about the solar photosphere.
 
Until you make the effort to learn what those words mean, you have no business, and should have no right at all, to talk about the solar photosphere.

Nor about the CMB. Nor about CMB foregrounds. Nor about alternate theories where the CMB is emitted by the IGM.
 
Absolute complete nonsense. Nobody can just look at a picture of the Sun and make any sort of valid scientific analysis.

It's a good thing then that I handed you Alfven's work on coronal loops and Onel and Mann's work on solar flares and circuit theory. It's a pity you never read or responded to them. You are therefore stuck in pure denial of scientific fact.

Nobody. That is looks-like-a-bunny science, the realm of cranks and crackpots. There's nothing quantitative or objective about it. It is especially prone to failure when the person attempting the analysis has absolutely no qualifications whatsoever to understand solar imagery.

You have demonstrated over and over again that denial is your primary self defense mechanism and personal attacks are the only form of communication that you engage in. When did you intend to address that Mann and Onel *MATH* or did you intend deny it's existence forever and ever?
 
Typical of you MM: You see bunnies in the clouds.

You and GM really give "observation" a "bad name". In fact you give "science" a "bad name" because without "observation", all your "maths" are utterly meaningless, utterly pointless, and utterly incapable of deciding between competing ideas.

Intelligent people know that there can never be lightning in plasma because lightning requires the breakdown of a dielectric and plasma is not a dielectric medium - it conducts :jaw-dropp.

Intelligent people have already read Peratt's work and understand that "electrical discharges" are very common in plasma and occur ANYTIME THAT EM FIELD ENERGY IS QUICKLY RELEASED INTO PLASMA. It's a pity that you and GM are in pure denial of simple scientific fact, facts that were discussed by Dungey in relationship to solar flares over 60 years ago.
 
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It's a good thing then that I handed you Alfven's work on coronal loops and Onel and Mann's work on solar flares and circuit theory. It's a pity you never read or responded to them.


Since I have addressed the Onel and Mann paper as necessary and relevant to this discussion, this argument is a lie.

And the complaint doesn't address the fact that nobody can just look at a picture of the Sun and make any sort of valid scientific analysis.

When did you intend to address that Mann and Onel *MATH* or did you intend deny it's existence forever and ever?


Since I have addressed the Onel and Mann paper, this argument is an uncivil and dishonest distortion of the facts.

Is there any objective quantitative evidence to support the electric Sun conjecture?
 
Since I have addressed the Onel and Mann paper as necessary and relevant to this discussion, this argument is a lie.

Your "looks like a bunny" crap is a "LIE", a huge lie, and the repetitious lie that you keep telling over and over again. Instead of accepting and dealing with the maths and the physics, you completely ignore them, and you repeat the same lie over and over and over and over and over again.

And the complaint doesn't address the fact that nobody can just look at a picture of the Sun and make any sort of valid scientific analysis.

It's a damn good thing that Mann and Onel did not do that. It's a pity you didn't *HONESTLY* acknowledge their work.

The only uncivil behavior comes from you, and only you.

Is there any objective quantitative evidence to support the electric Sun conjecture?

An honest person would not have to ask that question, they would have already responded to and acknowledged the maths and physics in Mann's paper. Since you refuse to do that, you keep spewing the same denial based BS over and over again. Grow up.
 
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Your standard of "wispiness", comparing the solar photosphere to Earth's troposphere is extremely unreasonable. Earth's troposphere consists primarily of neutral N2 and O2 molecules (which together make up 99% of the entire atmosphere), along with trace smatterings of H2O, Argon, CO2, CH4, and a whole bunch of other semi-irrelevant stuff. Earth's atmosphere is transparent to eyeball light. However, it is as opaque as a "brick wall" to X-rays, gamma-rays, and large chunks of the infrared wavelength region (see Atmospheric electromagnetic opacity diagram courtesy of our old friend Wikipedia).

In the sense that the atmosphere around the Earth is mostly NOT made of plasmas, you're right, it's "opaque" to different (typically higher energy) wavelengths of light as compared to a wispy light hydrogen atmosphere that would be be less likely to interfere with the higher energy wavelengths. That's exactly why we see iron ion wavelengths in SDO images, but not in ground based images. That very same issue is exactly why we can observe IRON ION WAVELENGTHS from under the surface of the photosphere because that plasma is already heavily ionized.

We can even tell the direction of the FLOW of the material based on the 1600 and 1700A images. It comes from UNDER the surface of the photosphere and it lights up the surface of the photosphere as the hot, highly energized plasma comes up and through that surface.

When did you intend to comment on the movement of mass seen it the 1600 and 1700A images Tim? Why do they look nearly IDENTICAL to that white light Trace image we discussed awhile back?

15%20April%202001%20WL.gif
 
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Let's all please remember to keep the discussion civil. Address the argument and do not attack or accuse others. Thank you.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader
 
In the sense that the atmosphere around the Earth is mostly NOT made of plasmas, you're right, it's "opaque" to different (typically higher energy) wavelengths of light as compared to a wispy light hydrogen atmosphere that would be be less likely to interfere with the higher energy wavelengths. That's exactly why we see iron ion wavelengths in SDO images, but not in ground based images.


Absolute malarkey. The SDO images are graphical representations of the thermal characteristics of different regions of the solar atmosphere. The various filters were designed to record different temperatures which are indicated by various abundances of ionized iron.

That very same issue is exactly why we can observe IRON ION WAVELENGTHS from under the surface of the photosphere because that plasma is already heavily ionized.


Complete nonsense. We can't observe anything under the photosphere. The photosphere is opaque at a depth of roughly 500 kilometers. By definition the deepest point in the photosphere is where no light can be transmitted. Opaque. By definition.

We can even tell the direction of the FLOW of the material based on the 1600 and 1700A images. It comes from UNDER the surface of the photosphere and it lights up the surface of the photosphere as the hot, highly energized plasma comes up and through that surface.


That is another fine example of an argument from ignorance. Lack of understanding what goes on in the photosphere does not support some cockamamie, physically impossible alternative explanation. Just because something looks like a bunny does not mean it is.

When did you intend to comment on the movement of mass seen it the 1600 and 1700A images Tim? Why do they look nearly IDENTICAL to that white light Trace image we discussed awhile back?


I can show pictures of two virtually identical mushrooms, one of which is eminently edible, while eating the other would likely cause a violent, painful death. To suggest that one looks like the other and therefore has similar properties is looks-like-a-bunny science. And I'm sure we all agree it makes for a very stupid argument.
 
That very same issue is exactly why we can observe IRON ION WAVELENGTHS from under the surface of the photosphere because that plasma is already heavily ionized.

Nope.

We can see iron ion wavelengths from above the photosphere. You are the only person on Earth who looks at solar images and mentally interprets them in your bizarre way.

It's like looking at a photo of a bird in the sky, and instead of saying "there is a cloud with a bird in front of it" you say "that bird-shaped hole in the cloud allows me to see that the interior of the cloud is feathered. See my web page at www.thecloudisfeathers.com"
 
You and GM really give "observation" a "bad name". In fact you give "science" a "bad name" because without "observation", all your "maths" are utterly meaningless, utterly pointless, and utterly incapable of deciding between competing ideas.
Wrong: We know that observation by itself is useless. It is the equivalent of the pictures taken by a tourist.
You have to know something about what you are observing. You cannot start with a preconceived notion about what an observation shows and not do the analysis to confirm that you are right.

For example, what if someone thinks that an observation (an image taken of the Sun) shows structures that are 4800 km below the photosphere?
If you just look at the image then they may be right.

But now apply some rational thought and physics:
  • If you are observing the light from a region that is defined as where the light escaped from the Sun (photosphere) then you know that it is incorrect to think that you can see light from below that region.
  • The optical depth of the plasma means that there is about a photon a year from that depth. (How can we detect the less than 1 photon per year from your iron crust?)
  • Look at the source of the observation (a 171A image TRACE satellite) and note that a 171A image detects light from ionized Fe at temperatures that only exist in the corona, i.e. above the photosphere.
Intelligent people have already read Peratt's work and understand that "electrical discharges" are very common in plasma and occur ANYTIME THAT EM FIELD ENERGY IS QUICKLY RELEASED INTO PLASMA.
That is wrong.
Peratt never worked on electrical discharges in plasma for the simple reason that he knew that they are impossible.
But I think you are refering to the one page in his book Cosmic Plasma where he describes the role of electrical discharges in creating plasma (as in his example of lightning).
Your mistake has been pointed out comperhensively in other threads, e.g.
and even in this thread, e.g. on 8th February 2011:
By falling into MM's semantic trick of cherry picking the first sentence of Peratt's definition as a definition of an electrical discharge within plasma, we get to rather idiotic situations. For example a capacitor discharging is a "a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy". Thus MM will have us redefine solids as plasma.

It's a pity that you and GM are in pure denial of simple scientific fact, facts that were discussed by Dungey in relationship to solar flares over 60 years ago.
It is a pity that Dungey's use of the term electrical discharge is still not understand by you - he used it in the context of high current density with no "sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy" involved.

The main problem is that you have no actual definition for electrical discharge. You flip flop between anything that supports your misconception that there have to be electrical discharges on the Sun, maybe because you have seen pretty pictures of things that look like them.
 
Nope.

We can see iron ion wavelengths from above the photosphere. You are the only person on Earth who looks at solar images and mentally interprets them in your bizarre way.

Actually even that isn't true ben. You seem to forget that I've published papers with 3 other authors.
 
Complete nonsense. We can't observe anything under the photosphere. The photosphere is opaque at a depth of roughly 500 kilometers. By definition the deepest point in the photosphere is where no light can be transmitted. Opaque. By definition.

According to Tim, the photosphere is defined as the region where light can escape, the "translucent" shiny stuff. According to Sol, the term "opacity" has nothing whatsoever to do with "blocking all light". <Snip>
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Removed personal comment
 
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Wrong: We know that observation by itself is useless. It is the equivalent of the pictures taken by a tourist.

Er no. I can observe you sticking your hand in fire, dance around screeching and yelling about how hot it is, and I can easily learn that sticking my hand in the fire isn't a good idea. You seem to falsely believe that all types of knowledge are "mathematical" in nature. I don't need to know any math at all to know that the fire isn't good for skin, just by observing your mistakes. :)

In your case those mistakes all seem to center around the fact that you can't accept the fact that electrical discharges occur in plasmas, even though I've shown you some occurring inside of a tokamac, and in spite of the fact that Peratt defines the process as a *DEFINITION*, and Dungey wrote about them in relationship to solar flares over 60 years ago. :) Hoy.
 
Actually even that isn't true ben. You seem to forget that I've published papers with 3 other authors.
Actually that is not what ben said: "We can see iron ion wavelengths from above the photosphere. You are the only person on Earth who looks at solar images and mentally interprets them in your bizarre way."

So you need to cite these three authors stating that the images show light from below the photosphere.
First point out to these authors that the photosphere is defined as where the light effectively escapes from the Sun so that by definition there is no light detectable from below it.
Next point out that the optical depth of the plasma means that there is about a photon a year from that depth. (How can we detect the less than 1 photon per year from your iron crust?).

However you may be correct - the statements in the 2 published papers make the authors seem as ignorant as you about solar physics:
Observational confirmation of the Sun's CNO cycle (Journal of Fusion Energy, volume 25 (2006) pages 107-114)
Cites your web page (:eye-poppi) and a conference about your delusion that you discovered 'rigid, iron-rich structures below the Sun's fluid photosphere'.

The Sun is a plasma diffuser that sorts atoms by mass (Phys.Atom.Nucl.69:1847-1856,2006)
Cites your web site again (:eye-poppi) with your fantasy that running difference images taken of light emitted from the corona magically revels 'rigid, iron-rich structures below the Sun's fluid photosphere.

It looks like your co-authors are either gullible or ignorant.

That these papers citing a web site got through peer-review without the reference being questioned is rather strange.
Why papers in solar physics were not published in astronomical journals is even stranger. It makes the author look as if they did not want astronomers to review their papers on astronomy.

The flaws in Observational confirmation of the Sun's CNO cycle have been discussed before.
Uudergraduate students can see that the second paper is invalid - diffusion means that any layers in the Sun would rapidly mix up.
 
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