Is Amway A Scam?

[Muldur]

xjx388, you are wise beyond wise.

 

[icerat]

Let's review:

followed by babble that has nothing to do with what I said

There's that legal fiction again...directly contradicted by multiple independent testimonies as to the reality of the AMOs and their tight association with Amway:

followed by babble which in no way supports what you're saying

If it's done FOR Amway AT Amways request and to SUPPORT Amway, then it's Amway's product, the legal fiction of "third party" notwithstanding.

Perhaps. But since it's not done for Amway at Amway's request, so point moot.

No, that would be you. Everyone else well understands exactly what I'm saying and the truth of it.

uhuh

They SAY they know nothing about it, etc, and cite the legal fiction of the "third party" company, but those who have been subjected to it (such as Mr Glasser, etc) have testified that it was abundantly clear that these "third party" materials were part and parcel of the Amway Method, and of the upline's profitability.

Please explain to me how Amway knows about what I order from Amazon. Is Amazon part yof your grand conspiracy too?

A simple Yahoo search brings up dozens and dozens of websites, book citiations and resources about the truth behind Amway. I'm hardly alone, and the truth is hardly "secret".

ROFLMAO!! Wow ... it's on the websites of self-described experts and self-published in their books. Must be true! But those books by actual experts, published by actual publishers - fooled! Judges around the world - fooled! Politicians around the world - fooled!

Listen to the all wise all knowing Mulder!

No, it exposes him as a shill for MLM, a pro-MLM zealot with less than no credibility.

yeah yeah yeah. He supports MLM, therefore he's a shill with no credibility.


Like President George HW Bush, speaking at an Amway seminar (and actual one, not one run by 3rd party company) -

"Amway is an extraordinary company" ... before going on to praise the company, the concept, and IBOs.

Or how about President Bill Clinton on the industry -

"you strengthen our country and our economy, not just by striving for your own success, but by offering opportunity to others"

And I'll repeat Professor Dominique Xardel's comments -

"Amway Corporation has succeeded for more than three decades in a highly regulated industry, because it is a proper, ethical, and honourable addition to the retail marketplace"

Or how about Commissioner Pitofsky, in his findings on FTC vs Amway -


"Direct selling companies usually sell high quality products"
"Amway Is a Substantial Industrial Company"
"Amway's products have very high consumer acceptance"
"consumers are obviously well served by the products that Amway supplies them with"

Doesn't apply. I'm not making extraneous attacks on the PERSON. I'm accurately challenging his credentials and therefore the validity of his argument.

Oh right. So you're not attacking the person, you're attacking the person because he has experience in the industry, and that challenges the validity of his argument. Riiiighhht......

 

[icerat]

Funny, just about everything I've ever heard of Amway selling (soaps, cleaners, cosmetics, vitamins, et al) is sold "simply sitting on the shelf" by retailers all the time.

Really? They don't spend fortunes on advertising? They're not in speciality shops where staff promote and explain products?

Uhuh,

So what's so "special" about Amway soaps, etc that it CAN'T be sold straight retail?

Soap is a very small part of Amway's business these days. Back when it was there was a little thing like phosphates and biodegradibility that were a big problem with "off the shelf" detergents. SA8 still has advantages - here's one example.

You know and I know, Icerat, that the "products" are there to keep the law at bay while Amway rakes in the dough selling Amway and all it's self-promoting "motivationals" and seminars, etc.

Oh for crying out loud. I'm starting to believe you can't possibly believe the crap your spouting and are simply trolling. Amway doesn't make any money on
"self-promoting "motivationals" and seminars", and it's products win awards around the world.

 

[gnome]

You've recruited a million retail customers, you'll be extremely wealthy.

Now, if you're instead talking about developing a network that together recruits a million people who only buy for themselves , profit shares it, and are all trying to make money by recruiting others, that's a different story. My analysis of that model (BTYTODS - by from yourself teach others to do the same) is that there's nothing illegal about it, but it is against Amway's rules.

It's also the pitch I get when I say I'm uninterested in being a salesperson.

 

[Joecool]

Why doesn't Icerat just answer these simple questions:

Why do "most" IBOs do nothing, not even order a product?

Why do IBOs make so little on average? Amway cleverly disregarded inactive IBOs when coming up with the $115 average monthly income.

If you are in a group of IBOs wo only "buy from themselves", where does the upline diamond get the income to buy his mansions?

How can diamonds not earn more from tools than Amway when the profit margin is higher and those sharing in the profits is a smaller group?

If Amway is so great, where are all those who worked hard 2-5 years and are now on the beaches sipping exoctic drinks while the checks keep rolling in?

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Icerat: You may be interested to know that appeals to authority are logical fallacies, and this is assuming all people you claim are authorities in that field.

Have fun with this fact.

 

[icerat]

Icerat: You may be interested to know that appeals to authority are logical fallacies, and this is assuming all people you claim are authorities in that field.

Have fun with this fact.

First of all, appeals to authority are not logical fallacies in themselves. It's only a fallacy when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject, or if there's an assertion of infallibility.

Secondly, the topic under discussion was "credibility", in which case the status or "authority" of a commentator is relevant. Claiming a logical fallacy in this instance is inappropriate.

Muldur on the other hand is (a) refusing to even consider a persons arguments because he considers them not credible purely because their conclusions are contrary to his. (b) regularly citing non-authorities to support his beliefs.

With respect, you may want to consider your beliefs and how they may be affecting your judgement of what and who is engaging in logical fallacies.

 

[Joecool]

I wonder what credibility Icerat is claiming to have? He admits to being mostly inactive for the last 12 years.

When I last made a comment on Icerat's forum, his loyal members were on me like piranhas claiming I had no credibility because my experience was about 12+ years old, but they took Icerat's word as if it were the gospel even though his experience is as dated as mine.

Someone's credentials are not necessarily relevent if what they speak of is true. It is true that most people who get involved in Amway end up with less money than they started with. It is true that Amway has earned a bad reputation in the US. It is true that many of these diamond leaders weres systematically and untheically advising their downline to consume tools, often without any regard to that IBOs individual prospects of making a profit.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

First of all, appeals to authority are not logical fallacies in themselves. It's only a fallacy when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject, or if there's an assertion of infallibility.

Secondly, the topic under discussion was "credibility", in which case the status or "authority" of a commentator is relevant. Claiming a logical fallacy in this instance is inappropriate.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Look at #3 onward in particualr

Muldur on the other hand is (a) refusing to even consider a persons arguments because he considers them not credible purely because their conclusions are contrary to his. (b) regularly citing non-authorities to support his beliefs.

You mean, the credibility war? See, I only did that because I noticed you were citing people starting with George H. W. Bush. Who..

With respect, you may want to consider your beliefs and how they may be affecting your judgement of what and who is engaging in logical fallacies.

... I didn't even post an argument eti.. o..ok!

 

[xjx388]

I don't think we need to be appealing to anyone's authority to say whether or not Amway is a good business model. I think we have ample evidence (from Amway itself) upon which to reach a conclusion; evidence that has not been refuted so far:

1. The vast majority of IBOs, for one reason or another, make absolutely no money whatsoever selling Amway.
2. There are very few IBOs, less than .5%, who are Gold level or above.

Therefore, at the very least, we can conclude from this that Amway is a very bad business opportunity which should be avoided. If prospects were given those two bullet points up front, Amway would be dead in a week. Instead, it's buried in confusing numbers in fine print in the "Business Opportunity Brochure," barely noticeable underneath big pictures of families on vacation and wonderful phrases like:

Individuals and couples who become Independent Business Owners (IBOs) find there are many benefits of being in this business:

• The ability to create a family business, one in which second and third generations can (and do) participate.
• The ability to earn income to supplement, replace, and sometimes even exceed current earnings.
• Flexible schedules that allow them to do the things they want.
• The satisfaction of building a better life for their families and themselves.
• Having the opportunity to help others build successful businesses.

To my mind, that's a scam. You have very little chance of ever making a dime off of this "business opportunity," yet it's marketed as your ticket to a dream life. And I don't even need to talk about the really bad stuff that happens to show that it's a scam.

 

[icerat]

Look at #3 onward in particualr

You mean - "There is an adequate degree of agreement among the other experts in the subject in question."?

There is, experts overwhelming agree with the assessments I gave. One you'd note was from a former head of one of the world's most prestigious business schools.

You mean, the credibility war? See, I only did that because I noticed you were citing people starting with George H. W. Bush. Who..

I gave both Bush and Clinton to offer political balance. It's often claimed by critics that MLMs "survive" only because of political contributions. The owners of Amway, and indeed a number of other top MLMs, are indeed heavy republican supporters, but here's a Democrat President also supporting the business model.

... I didn't even post an argument eti.. o..ok!

No, but you pointed out the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy to me, apparently referring to what I had said, yet made no such comments about Muldurs' actual fallacious appeals to authority. That would suggest a potential bias in your judgement.

 

[icerat]

1. The vast majority of IBOs, for one reason or another, make absolutely no money whatsoever selling Amway.
2. There are very few IBOs, less than .5%, who are Gold level or above

Therefore, at the very least, we can conclude from this that Amway is a very bad business opportunity which should be avoided.

Now we're talking fallicious logic! Sorry, but non sequitur. You need to know (a) how many IBOs are trying to make money and (b) how many IBOs are trying to make Gold level or above.

Numerous statistics, which you've apparently chosen to ignore, have already been given that show that answer to those questions is very, very few.

Amway Success - What are your odds? covers a lot of the errors in your thinking here.

If prospects were given those two bullet points up front, Amway would be dead in a week. Instead, it's buried in confusing numbers in fine print in the "Business Opportunity Brochure," barely noticeable underneath big pictures of families on vacation and wonderful phrases like:

It's not "buried" at all. It takes up almost half a page and isn't exactly confusing. If you can't comprehend that then you definitely shouldn't be trying to run a business.

But guess what - you've got (in the US) 12 months to work it out and get a full refund if you decide it's wrong for you.

To my mind, that's a scam. You have very little chance of ever making a dime off of this "business opportunity,"

If you think success in business is down to "chance" then I'd say the odds of you making any money in any business is a clear Zero.

 

[Joecool]

What?

Originally Posted by xjx388
1. The vast majority of IBOs, for one reason or another, make absolutely no money whatsoever selling Amway.
2. There are very few IBOs, less than .5%, who are Gold level or above

Therefore, at the very least, we can conclude from this that Amway is a very bad business opportunity which should be avoided.

Now we're talking fallicious logic! Sorry, but non sequitur. You need to know (a) how many IBOs are trying to make money and (b) how many IBOs are trying to make Gold level or above.

Seriously, is Icerat claiming that we need to know whether IBOs wanted to make money? And how many are trying to reach the gold level? So in general, the people don't know why someone would open a business?

Why don't we disregard all IBOs who "do nothing". Even if you count only the ones buying the tools (voicemail, standing orders, functions), then IBOs who reach gold/platinum are still just a fraction of 1%.

The answer is as simple as looking at a big recruitment meeting. For example, looking at the group I was in. Audience of about 1500. Maybe 200 or 250 were guests and the rest were IBOs (The guests were normally seated in the front and were not dressed in business attire). There was one (1) diamond, maybe 8 platinums acting as ushers and the rest were rank and file IBOs. We should be able to assume that IBOs who attend recruitment meetings are interested in making money and installing their own downlines.

 

[NewtonTrino]

It's extremely important to note that in deriving that $115 average, Amway disregarded "inactive" distributors. Icerat claims that nearly all IBOs "do nothing". Thus the true average might be $15 a month (gross).

Also, important to note, that Icerat's example is completely false. In order for an IBO to earn a commission, that IBO must move a minimum of 100 PV, which currently costs about $300.

Yes, Amway's a great business. You work as an unpaid salesperson. Move product at your own time and expense, and your upline get about 90% of the bonus you generated. Oh, and they sell you tools so you can learn what a great deal this is. How can anyone possibly beat that deal?

In a series I wrote on my blog, I had several ways of faring better financially than Amway. Doing nothing and watching TV, pandhandling, working for minimum wage, exercising and looking for spare change - all much more lucrative than the Amway opportunity.

Watching paint dry is also higher on the list.

Seriously, anyone who can do a google search would be a moron to get involved with amway at this point. Then again the same holds true for church attendance as well...

 

[Joecool]

I don't think we need to be appealing to anyone's authority to say whether or not Amway is a good business model. I think we have ample evidence (from Amway itself) upon which to reach a conclusion; evidence that has not been refuted so far:

1. The vast majority of IBOs, for one reason or another, make absolutely no money whatsoever selling Amway.
2. There are very few IBOs, less than .5%, who are Gold level or above.

Therefore, at the very least, we can conclude from this that Amway is a very bad business opportunity which should be avoided.

This is the bottom line. Icerat is obfuscating the facts. He says Amway has great products - nothing to do with Amway as a business opportunity. He says Amway's products win awards - nothing to do with Amway as a business opportunity. Even all the debate over the spirit of the FTC ruling on Amway says nothing about Amway as a business opportunity.

Amway is a bad business opportunity, and that's based on the information that Amway supplies the public. If you factor in the horror stories of people scammed by the tool sellers and it gets worse. It does seem that Amway recruiters focus on young and naive people who cannot properly evaluate a business opportunity because real business people see right through the facade.

 

[xjx388]

Now we're talking fallicious logic! Sorry, but non sequitur. You need to know (a) how many IBOs are trying to make money and (b) how many IBOs are trying to make Gold level or above.

Actually, I don't need to know any of that. I assume that anyone who starts a business (after all, it is an Independent Business Organization, no?) wants to make money. That's what they are pitched on. The fact that the vast majority do not make any money tells me all I need to know.

Numerous statistics, which you've apparently chosen to ignore, have already been given that show that answer to those questions is very, very few.

Which only goes to show that Amway is a bad business opportunity. Think about it . . . how can I make any money at all if the vast majority of people I recruit into my downline are not interested in making money? Answer: I can't.

Amway Success - What are your odds? covers a lot of the errors in your thinking here.

Actually, that blog post makes the same error you are accusing me of. I'm not talking about "chance" as in "odds." I'm talking about "opportunity." By Amway's own statistics (and your own admission), the vast majority of people who form IBOs will make no money. That is cold hard fact. So how will I ever have the chance/opportunity to make money by building a downline when the people I recruit as IBOs may not ever even place an order?

But let's go ahead and play the chance/odds game. Let's assume that I concede that the blog post you quoted gets all it's math and underlying assumptions right (yeah, right). The conclusion is: "If you qualify for a bonus on downline volume, then your odds of being a platinum are 1 in 35." The article assures us that Platinums earn about $50,000/yr. Guess what? I have the same odds of making the same money on a $1500 bet at roulette, one of the worst games in the casino. Sorry, but I don't invest in businesses with the chances/odds of success being the same (or worse) as one of the worst bets you can make.

It's not "buried" at all. It takes up almost half a page and isn't exactly confusing. If you can't comprehend that then you definitely shouldn't be trying to run a business.

I agree with you here. If a person can look at that and NOT be completely turned off, then they have no business trying to run ANY kind of business whatsoever. And the relevant stats ARE buried in fine print. In large print is a nice table titled, "Examples of What Others Are Earning," where they give astronomical sums of money. Why don't they just plainly state, "This table only applies to 0.47% of IBOs, the vast majority never make a dime?" Oh yeah, because no one would ever join if they told you that!

But guess what - you've got (in the US) 12 months to work it out and get a full refund if you decide it's wrong for you.

Somehow, I don't find the existence of this guarantee to be very comforting. Am I buying a product or a business opportunity? Will they reimburse me for all the money I've invested in trying to get my "business" up and running? What exactly are they refunding?

If you think success in business is down to "chance" then I'd say the odds of you making any money in any business is a clear Zero.

There is an element of chance in any business. But you are right, success is dependent on hard work. The problem with Amway is that too many people who I know personally, along with the multitude of former reps online, HAVE put in the hard work and gotten zero out of it. Again, it's not about "chance," it's about "opportunity." Using the numbers that Amway itself provides, along with supporting material from yourself and the blogs you quote, it's obvious that Amway does not represent a good opportunity. You can't twist the numbers, unfortunately, with motivational speeches and useless platitudes.

 

[icerat]

Actually, I don't need to know any of that. I assume that anyone who starts a business (after all, it is an Independent Business Organization, no?) wants to make money.

So you think all that's needed to start a business is sign a contract with some company that internally gives you a name "business owner"?

Nothing else is required?

Does the IRS agree with you? How about regional licencing authorities?

Which only goes to show that Amway is a bad business opportunity. Think about it . . . how can I make any money at all if the vast majority of people I recruit into my downline are not interested in making money? Answer: I can't.

Huh? Do you have any idea how Amway even works? If I sell something to my downline for their own use (ie they don't want to sell it and make money) then there is a profit margin and I make money. Same goes for those few who do actually run a business.

Actually, that blog post makes the same error you are accusing me of. I'm not talking about "chance" as in "odds." I'm talking about "opportunity." By Amway's own statistics (and your own admission), the vast majority of people who form IBOs will make no money. That is cold hard fact.

Yup, and that's just fine. Since the vast majority of them have no expectation to make money and indeed don't even try

I'm a registered Microsoft Reseller. I make no money from it, because I registered primarily to reseller pricing on Microsoft software.

By your logic that is evidence that selling Microsoft software is a poor business opportunity.

Ridiculous.

So how will I ever have the chance/opportunity to make money by building a downline when the people I recruit as IBOs may not ever even place an order?

Are you serious or just trolling? Who ever spoke about nobody ordering? If you want to argue with scarecrows, go to a farm.

But let's go ahead and play the chance/odds game. Let's assume that I concede that the blog post you quoted gets all it's math and underlying assumptions right (yeah, right). The conclusion is: "If you qualify for a bonus on downline volume, then your odds of being a platinum are 1 in 35." The article assures us that Platinums earn about $50,000/yr. Guess what? I have the same odds of making the same money on a $1500 bet at roulette, one of the worst games in the casino. Sorry, but I don't invest in businesses with the chances/odds of success being the same (or worse) as one of the worst bets you can make.

Could you please let me know which casino you go to? I'd be very interested to visit one where if I place $1500 at 1:35 they pay me $50000 a year ongoing if I win.

Somehow, I don't find the existence of this guarantee to be very comforting. Am I buying a product or a business opportunity?

Either one or both.

Will they reimburse me for all the money I've invested in trying to get my "business" up and running? What exactly are they refunding?

Either one or both

There is an element of chance in any business. But you are right, success is dependent on hard work. The problem with Amway is that too many people who I know personally, along with the multitude of former reps online, HAVE put in the hard work and gotten zero out of it.

Let's see. It's generally taught that to build a decently profitable Amway business you have to work hard consistently for at least one to two years.

How long did Joecool build for? less than a year
How long did Russell Glasser build for? never been an IBO
Scott Larsen? less than a year
David Brear? never an IBO
Newton Trino? never an IBO
Ruth Carter? Less than a year
Stephen Butterfield? Less than 2 years, and he reports making money
Rick Ross? Never an IBO
Jon Taylor? Never an IBO
etc etc etc

Sure there's probably some people that worked hard and didn't make any money. In what business isn't there? But there's certainly not a "multitude online".

Again, it's not about "chance," it's about "opportunity." Using the numbers that Amway itself provides, along with supporting material from yourself and the blogs you quote, it's obvious that Amway does not represent a good opportunity. You can't twist the numbers, unfortunately, with motivational speeches and useless platitudes.

Yeah, and you can tell us about your casino that keeps paying and paying ....

 

[xjx388]

So you think all that's needed to start a business is sign a contract with some company that internally gives you a name "business owner"?

Nothing else is required?

Does the IRS agree with you? How about regional licencing authorities?

You are making my point here. IBOs are not real businesses. They are simply given the IBO title by Amway. So how can Amway market an IBO as a real business opportunity with all the fluffy marketing hyperbole?

Huh? Do you have any idea how Amway even works? If I sell something to my downline for their own use (ie they don't want to sell it and make money) then there is a profit margin and I make money. Same goes for those few who do actually run a business.

I am all too familiar with how Amway works. You have previously said that such a model (Buy for yourself and and get other to do so) is against Amway's rules. Now you are saying it is "how Amway works." So finally, you admit that no one actually "retails" Amway products. So what we are left with is a Buying Club, not a business opportunity.

Yup, and that's just fine. Since the vast majority of them have no expectation to make money and indeed don't even try

I'm a registered Microsoft Reseller. I make no money from it, because I registered primarily to reseller pricing on Microsoft software.

By your logic that is evidence that selling Microsoft software is a poor business opportunity.

Ridiculous.

Not even worth arguing this one. . .

Are you serious or just trolling? Who ever spoke about nobody ordering? If you want to argue with scarecrows, go to a farm.

You, yourself, just said this:

Yup, and that's just fine. Since the vast majority of them have no expectation to make money and indeed don't even try

So if the vast majority of the IBOs I recruit aren't even going to try to make money, how can I expect to make any money?

Could you please let me know which casino you go to? I'd be very interested to visit one where if I place $1500 at 1:35 they pay me $50000 a year ongoing if I win.

Can you please let me know where I am guaranteed an ongoing $50,000 income in Amway?

Either one or both.

Well, since we are talking about Amway as a business opportunity, let's stick with that, shall we?

Either one or both

So, are you telling me that Amway will refund me all the money I've spent establishing my business? Can you point to me where this is spelled out in Amway marketing materials? I can find no reference to this.

Let's see. It's generally taught that to build a decently profitable Amway business you have to work hard consistently for at least one to two years.

How long did Joecool build for? less than a year
How long did Russell Glasser build for? never been an IBO
Scott Larsen? less than a year
David Brear? never an IBO
Newton Trino? never an IBO
Ruth Carter? Less than a year
Stephen Butterfield? Less than 2 years, and he reports making money
Rick Ross? Never an IBO
Jon Taylor? Never an IBO
etc etc etc

First of all, I'm not talking just about the "notable" Amway critics. I'm talking about all the people on message boards, on blogs - frankly all over the place. I'm also talking about the people I personally know.
But besides that, why did so many of these people drop out of Amway? Maybe because they finally saw what a horrible "business opportunity" they had gotten themselves into?

Sure there's probably some people that worked hard and didn't make any money. In what business isn't there? But there's certainly not a "multitude online".

You haven't really looked, have you?

Yeah, and you can tell us about your casino that keeps paying and paying ....

And you can keep telling us about how Amway guarantees that your business will prosper or you get all your money back!

 

[icerat]

You are making my point here. IBOs are not real businesses. They are simply given the IBO title by Amway. So how can Amway market an IBO as a real business opportunity with all the fluffy marketing hyperbole?

You never took logic classes did you?

Some IBOs not being businesses, even most IBOs not being businesses, does not make all IBOs not businesses.

I am all too familiar with how Amway works.

Your comments so far indicate otherwise.

You have previously said that such a model (Buy for yourself and and get other to do so) is against Amway's rules. Now you are saying it is "how Amway works." So finally, you admit that no one actually "retails" Amway products. So what we are left with is a Buying Club, not a business opportunity.

That's not the model I was describing. At no point did I exclude customer sales by those who are building a business.

Not even worth arguing this one. . .

I have a contract with Amway that gives me the right to distribute their products.

I have a contract with Microsoft that gives me the right to distribute their products.

In neither case am I actually distributing their products.

Yet you seem to believe I have an Amway business and a Microsoft software business.

I don't.

Glad you don't want to argue it.

You, yourself, just said this:
So if the vast majority of the IBOs I recruit aren't even going to try to make money, how can I expect to make any money?

I'm struggling to even understand what you're saying here, it so, well, bizarre.

You don't need downline trying to make money to make money in Amway. Where do you get that idea? Have you even seen the compensation plan?

Can you please let me know where I am guaranteed an ongoing $50,000 income in Amway?

Never said you were. It was you that compared a yearly income with a one of winnings. Are you not aware that starting a business and getting it to profitability is much more work than maintaining it?

So, are you telling me that Amway will refund me all the money I've spent establishing my business? Can you point to me where this is spelled out in Amway marketing materials? I can find no reference to this.

You didn't look very hard, but then you've already noted your inability to comprehend a simple brochure. That very brochure has "Amway Assurance Program" in large letters on page 15.

We stand behind our products with a 180-day, 100% Satisfaction Guarantee.
-100% money-back guarantee on your business registration fee in the first
90 days after you register.
-100% money-back guarantee on training materials and services purchased
and returned through an Approved Provider in the first 90 days after you register.

So no, Amway will not refund you all the money you may have spent. If you decide you need a new computer for your new business, and then don't pursue the business, then you're out of luck.

But you can go as far as trying the products and returning the empty package and get a full refund.

First of all, I'm not talking just about the "notable" Amway critics. I'm talking about all the people on message boards, on blogs - frankly all over the place. I'm also talking about the people I personally know.

How many are "all the people"? The biggest "critic" website is Scott Larsen. a few years back I analysed a couple of years worth of messages he posted on his site, and less than a third were people who had had negative experiences and were critical. The majority were either supportive or had no experience.

There are currently somewhere around 8 million people registered with Amway around the world, just this year. Half of them will decide it's not for them and move on with life.

What percentage of all the people with experience with Amway are "all the people"?

Are you aware that a University of Westminster study into global attitudes towards direct selling, including Amway (study linked to earlier) found that the majority of people with actual experience with direct selling (either as a distributor or customer) were positive about the industry?

But besides that, why did so many of these people drop out of Amway? Maybe because they finally saw what a horrible "business opportunity" they had gotten themselves into?

Or maybe because, like me, it just wasn't something they wanted to pursue at the time and they had other priorities. There's lots of good business opportunities out there. I don't want to pursue the vast majority of them

That doesn't mean they're horrible business opportunities.

You haven't really looked, have you?

Yes I have. I've read pretty much everything online. I monitor new discussions daily. I've also read all the court cases, and nearly all the books about Amway, both positive and negative, about Amway.

And you can keep telling us about how Amway guarantees that your business will prosper or you get all your money back!

Now you are outright lying. I never said anything remotely like that. No business opportunity can guarantee anything.

 

[xjx388]

You never took logic classes did you?

Some IBOs not being businesses, even most IBOs not being businesses, does not make all IBOs not businesses.

Independent Business Organization. That's what it's called. By definition, all of them are businesses. By statistics that are not in dispute, the vast majority of them are businesses that have failed. Amway markets itself as a business opportunity. By all evidence available, it's a horrible business opportunity because the vast majority of IBOs will not make any money.

Your comments so far indicate otherwise.

I haven't shared my personal anecdotes because there's no need to. I think I've demonstrated that I know enough about them to discuss them rationally. Even if I had zero experience with them, I can read a brochure and analyze it rationally.

That's not the model I was describing. At no point did I exclude customer sales by those who are building a business.

The problem for Amway is that no one is "building a business" through sales of the products. The statistics prove this.

Yes. There is a lot of product being moved. However, the evidence indicates that the product is being moved by IBOs buying for their own consumption and recruiting others to do the same. That is precisely how Amway works. Most IBOs fail because this model is not sustainable.

I have a contract with Amway that gives me the right to distribute their products.

I have a contract with Microsoft that gives me the right to distribute their products.

In neither case am I actually distributing their products.

Yet you seem to believe I have an Amway business and a Microsoft software business.

I don't.

Glad you don't want to argue it.

No need to argue it because it makes my point. You aren't running a business, you are buying things at a discount. Similarly, almost no one runs Amway as a business. It is not a sustainable business model. Therefore, it sucks as a business opportunity.

Now if you want to claim that there are plenty of people who DO join it and 2-3 years later are raking in the money, you need to present evidence of this.

I'm struggling to even understand what you're saying here, it so, well, bizarre.

You don't need downline trying to make money to make money in Amway. Where do you get that idea? Have you even seen the compensation plan?

Of course you need downline! Reaching Gold level or higher (which only 0.47% of all IBOs ever do) requires monthly sales volume of roughly $15,000. We all know (as you said "Since the vast majority of them have no expectation to make money and indeed don't even try") that virtually no one is selling that much in monthly volume by themselves. You must recruit a downline to help you reach this. But most of the people you recruit will not even try to make money. So the realistic chances/odds of ever reaching Gold level are very minute. Which means that I don't really have a chance/opportunity of ever making any money with Amway. Therefore, Amway sucks as a business opportunity.

Never said you were.

You said: "But guess what - you've got (in the US) 12 months to work it out and get a full refund if you decide it's wrong for you."

I asked in response: "Am I buying a product or a business opportunity? Will they reimburse me for all the money I've invested in trying to get my "business" up and running? What exactly are they refunding?"

You responded: "Either one or both."

So yes, you did say that I was guaranteed to be satisfied (make a significant income) or I would get my money back.

It was you that compared a yearly income with a one of winnings. Are you not aware that starting a business and getting it to profitability is much more work than maintaining it?

But the article you quoted said I had 35-1 odds of making a $50,000 salary if I recruited a productive downline. I merely said that I have the same odds of winning that money on a $1500 bet to illustrate that the odds of that happening are pretty long by the logic of the article you quoted. I also implied that I don't really buy the premise of the article in the first place.

You didn't look very hard, but then you've already noted your inability to comprehend a simple brochure. That very brochure has "Amway Assurance Program" in large letters on page 15.

We stand behind our products with a 180-day, 100% Satisfaction Guarantee.
-100% money-back guarantee on your business registration fee in the first
90 days after you register.
-100% money-back guarantee on training materials and services purchased
and returned through an Approved Provider in the first 90 days after you register.

So no, Amway will not refund you all the money you may have spent. If you decide you need a new computer for your new business, and then don't pursue the business, then you're out of luck.

But as I quoted you above, you said I would have 12 months to reconsider. This only says 3 months to get my business registration fee and training material expenditures back and 6 months on product. Where does it say I have 12 months? That's what I can't find.

But you can go as far as trying the products and returning the empty package and get a full refund.

Not as an IBO for stock that I purchased to sell. For that they charge me $5.95 per return. So I'm not getting a "full refund" if I decide the opportunity is not good for me.

How many are "all the people"? The biggest "critic" website is Scott Larsen. a few years back I analysed a couple of years worth of messages he posted on his site, and less than a third were people who had had negative experiences and were critical. The majority were either supportive or had no experience.

This has not been my experience. YMMV.

There are currently somewhere around 8 million people registered with Amway around the world, just this year. Half of them will decide it's not for them and move on with life.

If 8 million is the number registered then this means that only about 36000 worldwide (extrapolating the .46% in North America) have reached gold level or above. That means that 7,964,000 have been pitched a "business opportunity" and not made any money at it at all.

Or maybe because, like me, it just wasn't something they wanted to pursue at the time and they had other priorities. There's lots of good business opportunities out there. I don't want to pursue the vast majority of them

That doesn't mean they're horrible business opportunities.

But if it was a legitimate business opportunity, the success rate would be a hell of a lot higher. I don't think people sign up with Amway to fail. Even if half just signed up on a whim or just to please a friend or family member, that still leaves quite a few who may have wanted to make money but discovered that the business model was unsustainable.

Yes I have. I've read pretty much everything online. I monitor new discussions daily. I've also read all the court cases, and nearly all the books about Amway, both positive and negative, about Amway.

I have to ask you: Why do you care so much if you don't have a stake in this? You have said that you are not actively involved in Amway so why so much effort in defending it? I am pretty active in discouraging everyone I know from getting involved in it (and all MLM products) because I've seen first-hand how bad it can be. My aunt lost everything she had because she got sucked in to this trap. I lost my best friend because I wouldn't join his downline (he's no longer involved and we've reconciled). It does tear apart families and friends and can lead to financial ruin. That's why I'm here, anyway.

Now you are outright lying. I never said anything remotely like that. No business opportunity can guarantee anything.

As I quoted above, you said that Amway would reimburse me for the expenses I incurred in setting up my business if I wasn't satisfied with the opportunity. You've had to correct/clarify/retract that, so I will retract this statement.