Gladly.
I said: "Amway pitches themselves as a business opportunity."
1. The brochure in question is called: "A Business Opportunity for Entrepreneurs."
2. The brochure says on page 2:
"IS THIS THE RIGHT BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU?
We hope that once you learn more about the business opportunity that is waiting for you, you’ll agree with millions of others – that having your own business is an opportunity worth pursuing."
3. Along with many other references to the "business opportunity," throughout the brochure, page 15 says:
"ARE YOU READY TO START?
You’ve had a chance to hear how this business opportunity has the potential to fulfill dreams. You’ve read through this brochure and learned more about who and what will be supporting your business opportunity efforts."
4. To solidify the point that this is a business opportunity and not a "buyers club," the Business Reference Guide makes it clear that, when pitching the opportunity, IBOs:
"Must not say that a successful IB can be built in the form of a “wholesale buying club,” where the only products bought and sold are those transferred to other IBOs for their personal use."
I said: "and tells people to set themselves up as sole proprietorships for tax purposes."
1. In the Business Reference Guide, it says in the Rules of Conduct section 3.1:
"IBs shall be formed initially by the individual applicant(s) as sole proprietor(s), or as non-formal (e.g., husband and wife) partners."
2. The brochure goes on to say that, basically, you can start an LLC or other business structure, but you must form as a sole proprietorship/husband-wife partnership first.
3.Under Income Tax Tips, they say:
"Like any small-business owner engaged in a for-profit enterprise, your income is subject to tax and must be reported on your personal income tax returns."
So, as I said, Amway is pitching this as a Business Opportunity where you are forming an actual small business.
No, they don't. Nothing to stop people using it that way though.
Regardless of how you use it, as I've proven in Amway's own words, it is pitched to people as a business opportunity. Amway does not allow you to pitch it as a "buyers club."
The majority of people who put in the recommended work for the recommended time make money, your assertion is false.
I think it's pretty clear that the statistics support my position. The statistics that Amway themselves supply, no less.
<snipity snip snip>
No, it's a buyer's club purchase. Which is against Amway's rules.
Amway rules aside, there is no legal or ethical reason why products can be consumed primarily by Amway members.
Well other than the fact that you would be breaking Amway's rules? Besides that, operating it on the Buyer's club model would make it a pyramid scheme. Amway must insist on retail sales to outside parties because that's one of the stipulations the FTC put on them.
<snipping repetitive arguments>
So 2000 people work part-time to develop a business, and all 2000 of them develop significant incomes, then that makes it a poor business?
Yes, because the other 7,000,000 or so people who were pitched the business opportunity develop nothing. If 9 out of 10 people who opened a McDonald's franchise failed, I think we could say that McDonald's sucked as a business opportunity.
<snipping more repetition>
Right. And if I own a clothing store and the whole world comes at buys my clothes with the idea of reselling them, that'll be 7 billion people. What's your point?
You would have advertised to attract those 7 billion people. They would have come to you because of the greatness of your product. There's no way in hell you could personally sell to all 7 billion of them. Amway can't do this because their products are not competitive in the open market. Thus they prohibit you from doing the best thing any retail business can do: Advertising!
Now you're going all over the place. First your claiming something is terrible. Then you claiming that it doesn't happen, so therefore it's terrible.
Make your mind up.
Nice attempt to confuse the matter there.
Amway sucks as a business opportunity because 99.5% of the people who attempt it make no money. It might be just fine as a buyers club and we wouldn't be discussing it if that's what Amway was pitching. But the facts show that Amway is a terrible business opportunity.
So it's unsustainable if you recruit 20 resellers and all 20 of them work hard and want to make money, and they recruit 20 resellers who do the same etc etc etc.
Yes. Because the statistics show that 99.5% of the people who become IBOs will not be successful.
<more snippy snippy>
No, it's internally collected statistics.
Which means you (conveniently) can't source them. I've given sources for all my evidence.
So now it's a scam because it takes time and effort?
No. It's a scam because despite taking the time and making the effort, most people fail because Amway is an unsustainable model.
Also not true. IBOs can advertise, though there are contractual restrictions. The reason why it's not done much is that there are more effective and efficient ways.
IBOs cannot advertise. Read the Rules of Conduct. Advertising is the best way to attract customers to your business. Why does Amway contractually forbid the best way to sell a product at retail? Because their products can't compete on the open market!
No, it's extremely easy to sponsor one person and have them buy something. On average all you need to do is show the business to 4 or 5 people and you'll have one register and buy something.
The statistics disagree.
<snip>
Frankly this discussion is encouraging me to drop my other ventures for Amway!
I doubt very much that you are serious. If Amway was so great, you never would have needed to start other ventures. Where are your multi-millions? Why aren't you sipping drinks on a beach somewhere?
Ummm, no. The last part is 100% chance in roulette. There's very little chance involved in Amway (or any other business). But yes, your actions do improve your odds. "Critics" like yourself are effectively claiming that people who don't even step in a casino, have a 1:35 chance of winning $50K in roulette. Which is patently rubbish.
You are misquoting. I said that if you simply walk into a casino, you've increased your odds of winning. Just like that article you quoted said that if you just buy a product, you've increased your odds of going platinum. But you are right. It's ridiculous to say either one. The odds in both cases are nowhere near 35-1. The actual odds are near zero for someone to make serious money gambling OR "investing" in Amway. That was the whole point of my little parody.
See, there you go. Claiming people who haven't even stepped in the casino, merely expressed an interest in doing so, have a chance of making money.
First of all, I said nothing of the sort. But this is good! You see the logical flaw inherent in that argument. It's the same flaw as saying "Just by buying a product, you've increased your odds to become platinum." Do you get it yet?
Except with Amway, you get something in return for your money (products) even if you don't "go", plus you can ask for your money back if you discover you're simply not going to do it. I tried that with my new gym after I crashed my bike and broke several ribs a few weeks after joining. It didn't work. I even had to keep paying them for another three months.
We've already established that Amway does not refund all your money.
I don't think Amway attracts a lot of scammers. It attracts a lot of unserious people. I think the MLM strategy attracts scam companies.
Yet you still think it's a good opportunity? That is a strange sort of rationalization there . . .
I only gamble for entertainment, with the expectation that entertainment will cost me money.
But I'm an entrepreneur. I'm currently involved in two startups and evaluating a third business opportunity right now, and I'm always open to others. So go ahead and pitch me.
Why would I pitch you? I want to make money for myself. Only the Amway model has us making our family and friends into competitors. As an entrepreneur, surely you can see the folly in that approach?
It provides NOTHING that is not available in your local Wal-Mart for MUCH less money. It is ALL marketing fluff. I can buy a generic multi and a phyto supplement for less than $15. So what is so special that justifies a $60 markup?
