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Abortion: My personal experience

Bob Blaylock said:
I have not claimed that I was being brave. I was simply telling an important truth. A man who willingly participates in the murder of his own child is, at best, a coward. I don't claim that it takes any special courage to say so.

As it happens, I am also considerably less “anonymous” than the majority of people in this forum, including yourself.
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A girlfriend of mine, about 20 years ago, got an abortion. I didn't participate in it, but I paid for it. Can I be a monster too? :)
 
Safe-Keeper said:
Oh, and a word of advice -- whenever someone comes barging into a thread like an elephant in a glass store, full of emotion or political fury and apparently incapable of empathy (like Bob in this thread or JihadJane in the thread about the US special forces helicopter crashing)... just put him or her on ignore. Responding encourages such behaviour, while ignoring the responsible party teaches him/her (yeah, I'm an optimist) that being a **** isn't tolerated and will only lead to everyone giving you a cold shoulder.
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Nah, I use them as cat toys.
 
A message to all those men out there who don't like abortions: Don't Get One.

Don't ever DARE to judge someone when you are completely and utterly incapable of feeling what the person you are judging feels. Your sanctimonious response does nothing to advance your view except to further isolate you. NONE of us can speak for God (yes, I do believe in God and have no problem with that belief), so saying that you know for certain that this man and his wife will stand before God with the blood of their unborn child on their hands is not only the height of arrogance, but just such an un-Christian thing to say. It's beyond despicable.

Michael
 
foxholeatheist said:
No one was having fun. On top of that, ****** pop music was piped in.
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The sort of detail that makes all the difference.

Anyway, at least you didn't have to deal with protesters out front calling your wife a bitch-whore and spitting on her (like Jesus would).
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Some day, you will stand before your maker, with your murdered child's blood dripping from your hands, and you will be held to account for yourself.
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How much blood does a five-week old fetus have, anyway? I'm not sure 'dripping' is the right word.
 
thaiboxerken said:
People, like Bob, don't understand that abortion is a hard choice but a responsible one. They believe sex is only for procreation....weird.
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You know the Catholic Church's official position is that birth control is verboten. I was raised Catholic. I can't think of too many others I knew who paid the slightest attention to it.
 
Dessi said:
From the OP:

The fetus has no memory, no personality, no experiences, no sensation, no wants, no desires, no interests, no pleasure, no pain, no satisfaction, no suffering, no sense of its surroundings, no mental life whatsoever. Its not clear what, if any, morally relevant characteristics a fetus has at all which make it comparable to a child, let alone an infant, yet they have an equal claim to moral value? Sorry if I'm a little skeptical.

I don't see anything obviously objectionable with terminating a 5 week pregnancy. I think there is something profoundly objectionable to 24-hour waiting periods, needless ultrasound, healthcare that's nearly inaccessible to impoverished people, sweeping prohibitions on insurance providers from covering abortion regardless of individual circumstances, and the very fact that we even need armed guards at the entrance of healthcare clinics.

foxholeatheist, my heart goes out to you and your wife.
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Fantastic post.
Foxholeatheist, you did the right thing, thanks for the post
 
Great post Foxholeatheist.

I have always thought that "pro-choice" included the "anti-abortion" people, since they can freely choose not to have an abortion.

I have known a number of women (in fact drove a few of them to a clinic), who had abortions. They all had their own various reasons and for all it was very emotional.

I can't get my mind around the idea that if abortions were illegal, then by definition the state will own woman's wombs and will be responsible for unborn fetuses.

The insidious roadblocks and violence against abortion providers is profoundly wrong.

It is, and always will be a choice between a woman (her husband/partner), and her doctor.

Charlie (Hey Man) Monoxide
 
Charlie Monoxide said:
I have always thought that "pro-choice" included the "anti-abortion" people, since they can freely choose not to have an abortion.
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Depends. If you believe abortion is murder then it would be morally inconsistent. It's akin to saying, "don't like slavery, then don't own a slave".

There are 2 problems with thinking abortion is murder however.

  • A fetus in the first trimester has largely the same human traits as a wart.
  • After the first trimester there are a number of traits the fetus lacks that render it not a moral agent (a bit more shady I confess but significant nonetheless).
 
foxholeatheist said:
It really is not an undue burden. It is however when there are no clinics nearby, then it is a big deal. I understand the concept so that rash decisions are not made. But I can't help but think about those in rural areas or those without dependable transportation.

I can certainly understand someone having objections to abortions be it early or late. However I cannot understand laws and regulations placed simply to inconvenience women that are likely scared and confused enough already.
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This I wholeheartedly agree with. The problem is that each law is separate, so none can be successfully challenged and overruled because the individual law does not place an undue burden on access, but when they start piling up, the total effect does create the burden.

I also have one question for you. In your OP, you mentioned that this was discussed at length before the situation arose (good thinking ahead planning btw) but you did not go into details. You mentioned that the primary consideration was that you could not afford a child and did not feel that you would be good parents. May I ask why you decided that having the child, then putting it up for adoption was not your ultimate decision? (yes, I know this is personal and I will not be upset if you decline to answer, but you seemed to have thought this through and based on only the very limited information that you have so far provided, it seems like this may have been a viable alternative)
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
Point of order:

It has been some years since I last held the post of Ward Clerk or Executive Secretary and as such had access to the Mormon churches "General Handbook of Instructions". So I am going purely on memory here, but as I recall, members of the church who are convicted of the crime of murder in most western jurisdictions are immediately excommunicated from the church. Members who have had abortions are not. They might be, depending on the circumstances (such as marital infidelity, attempts at cover-up, et cetera...) but it is not automatic as it is with the actual commission of "Colonel Mustard in the Study with the candlestick" murder.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled flame-war.
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This is actually interesting. Is it because abortions aren't criminal by secular societal standards (i.e. "the crime of murder in most western jurisdictions"), or is there a theological basis for this in Mormonism?
 
Bob Blaylock said:
I have not claimed that I was being brave. I was simply telling an important truth. A man who willingly participates in the murder of his own child is, at best, a coward.
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So god is a coward at best?
 
Leumas said:
FGod has killed millions of babies according to the biblical saga.
  • HE CAUSED HIS OWN SON to be killed so as to forgive people he could have clicked his fingers to forgive instead
  • He killed millions of babies when he flooded the world
  • He causes people to EAT THEIR CHILDREN for not loving him
  • He TORTURED for SEVEN DAYS and then killed David’s bastard son to punish David for the sin of adultery and murder
  • He killed the children of the Egyptians because the Pharaoh had his heart hardened by god himself....even the slaves' sons
  • He orders the Hebrews to kill children and exterminate entire races….and he assists.
  • He killed thousands of babies when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah
  • He killed millions of Hebrew babies when he was REPEATEDLY and ENDLESSLY punishing them for not loving him as much as he wanted.
  • He promises to kill babies To the FOURTH GENERATION of people who don't love him as much as he desires
  • He lets millions of babies die before they come to term
  • He lets millions of babies die from diseases and hunger
  • He lets millions of babies be born with congenital and genetic diseases
  • He ordered Abraham to kill his son.
  • He let Jephthah kill his daughter to fulfill a pledge he made to him in return for winning a war where Jephthah kills babies of other people
  • He killed the children of Korah for opposing Moses
  • He stands idly by while millions of children are being killed annually
And the list goes on and on ad nauseam.
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Don't forget the story of Job. God allows, amongst other tragedies, Job's children to be killed just in order to win a bet with Satan.
 
RandFan said:
Depends. If you believe abortion is murder then it would be morally inconsistent. It's akin to saying, "don't like slavery, then don't own a slave".

There are 2 problems with thinking abortion is murder however.

  • A fetus in the first trimester has largely the same human traits as a wart.
  • After the first trimester there are a number of traits the fetus lacks that render it not a moral agent (a bit more shady I confess but significant nonetheless).
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You are correct, but I was being my typical faecetious self.

What about the countless abortions that occur naturally? I don't see the "anti-women" people out there protesting against Mother Nature ......

Charlie (killing for Jesus) Monoxide
 
Charlie Monoxide said:
You are correct, but I was being my typical faecetious self.

What about the countless abortions that occur naturally? I don't see the "anti-women" people out there protesting against Mother Nature ......

Charlie (killing for Jesus) Monoxide
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Got it, just call me Rand (slow on the uptake) Fan. :)
 
Hokulele said:
This is actually interesting. Is it because abortions aren't criminal by secular societal standards (i.e. "the crime of murder in most western jurisdictions"), or is there a theological basis for this in Mormonism?
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Current sociobiological explanations would be that controlling base drives is a powerful means of controlling people. If you control sex, reproduction, consumption, etc., you can keep your followers from questioning your authority. Extremes include cults like Moonies and Hare Krishna and mainstream organizations like many Islamic theocracies.
 
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