Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[Porkpie Hat]

Dammit! seewithyourowneyes let the cat out of the bag... someone cut Porkpie Hat a check.

It's about bloody time!

 

[Porkpie Hat]

WTC 7 WTC 1&2 all demolished.....all part of a master plan....come on....haters how do you explain WTC 7 falling down....no real fire...not hit by a plane...and crashes down in 6.5 seconds...something is very strange!!

Indeed.

I suggest you find a new optometrist.

 

[Sunstealer]

I will divide it along a couple of lines.

1. The steel shows potential sabotage weakening it. The problem is we can't tell if it happened before or after the collapse.

What is this sabotage you speak of? How is it weakening the steel?

To me it seems that you think the high temperature corrosion seen in some samples, caused by sulphidation and oxidation driven by solid state diffusion, is in some way a sabotage of the steel before collapse.

2. We have a very detailed starting conditions (Un-etched steel) for running the model. We have a thermal history recorded in the steel. Some of the steel was recovered from areas that the survey reported substantial fires. After compensating, for after collapse heating, the model is correctly set up for the extent and temperature of the fire.

The model repeats or nearly repeats the actions of the buildings as observed. Timing of critical events nearly matches observations. The model is robust and does not require any unusual assumptions.

I'll firstly pull you up on your use of the word "etched". Not sure why you are using that, it has a very specific meaning in metallurgy. http://metals.about.com/od/metallurgy/a/Metallographic-Etching.htm

Yes we have a good basis for models based on the examination of recovered steel.

3. Had the damage (acid etching) occurred before the collapse, the model does not repeat correctly. Conclusion the damage (acid etching) occurred after the collapse. No sabotage, the plane impact and fires have reasonable probability of being SOLELY responsible for the collapse.

The damage is not acid etching -see above. The mechanism for the corrosion observed is not the standard chemical one, but one based upon solid state diffusion. The problem you have is this type of high temperature corrosion will not erode the required thickness of steel in the timeframe that was seen, i.e. the time between the aircraft crashing into the towers and the collapse.

4. Information dispels conspiracies, illogical information or actions (like where is the steel)? and excessive secrecy feed conspiracies.

Here is some information for you to understand.

http://www.georgevandervoort.com/fa_lit_papers/World_Trade_Center.pdf

The steel was examined at various sites. Some of it was marked to be saved so analysis could be performed. How do you think they got the samples for the above report if the steel went missing?

 

[Sunstealer]

The fire is not entirely fuel or contents, the aluminum is now burning. This is like the HMS Sheffield. Nano Aluminum and water ice make a fairly good rocket fuel. Aluminum (with enough oxygen) will burn very hot.

May not be relevant to WTC because there is a lack of samples showing the thermal history throughout the area of impact and fire. Your black smoke is not that relevant to the temperature due to the burning aluminum.

HMS Sheffield had a steel superstructure contrary to popular belief There's plenty of info out there.

Aluminium in bulk form is very difficult to ignite. When used as fuel for rocket motors the aluminium is in a powder form which gives a far higher surface area making it easier to ignite and burn.

Eg: take a 1Kg block of Aluminium and heat it with an oxyacetylene torch. It will take a little while to start melting not burning the block.

Now do the same to 1Kg of powdered aluminium - but call the burn's unit first because you'll need them.

 

[Sunstealer]

Because of the underground fires and the presence of heated gypsum and carbon monoxide substantial quantities of sulfuric acid (potentially several tons) could have formed, etching or dissolving steel nearby.

The sulfuric acid also produces hydrogen which burns with a flame temperature in air of approx 2400C. This can cause steel to melt. But all of this happens AFTER the collapse.

We don't observe any of the effects you describe in the steel recovered and metallurgically analysed. See the report in the few posts above.

 

[dafydd]

Indeed.

I suggest you find a new optometrist.

A psychiatrist would be a good idea too.

 

[Sunstealer]

I'm very confused now. Are you asserting that drywall caused corrosion to the structural steel before the collapse? Or after the collapse, during the subsequent fire?

I think he is claiming that when the steel was removed the workers saw huge numbers of steel beams with lots of holes in - "the swiss cheese" effect. The workers went WTF!?, never seen that before, that must have been caused by thermite. Everything was hushed up because of the odd looking steel, but the workers talked and the theory of thermite got out.

He then goes on to say that the swiss cheese effect isn't caused by thermite, but caused by the decomposition of drywall producing SO₂ and the SO2 reacting with water to produce sulphuric acid which then attacked the steel.

He's sort of right with this except that you don't need the additional step of producing the H2SO4. If he understood this report http://www.georgevandervoort.com/fa_lit_papers/World_Trade_Center.pdf he'd understand that sulphuric acid wasn't the culprit.

 

[jaydeehess]

WTC 7 WTC 1&2 all demolished.....all part of a master plan..

Very nice, begin with a prejudicial conclusion.

..come on....haters

"How to win friends and influence people" 101

how do you explain WTC 7 falling down....no real fire...

Incorrect! There were fires on several floors each of which would have been considered major fires on their own.

not hit by a plane...

Yet for some reason there are other instances of full or partial collapses that also do not involve aircraft crashing into the structure. Go figure....No really go and figure that one out please.

and crashes down in 6.5 seconds..

Incorrect! The entire collapse took over 16 seconds. Why do idealogues such as yourself often seem to dismiss completely the very obvious internal collapse and only 'count' the collapse of the facade?

something is very strange!!

I agree, but IMHO its your prejudices and ideology that are 'strange' not the physical destruction of WTC 7(or the other WTC structures, or the Pentagon, just to be clear)

 

[jaydeehess]

Do you stlll say that we have not gathered enough to justify a new enquiry ?

Given the explanations for the destruction that are available
- the NIST/Bazant and others scenarios in which the very obvious aircraft impacts and jet fuel acellerated large area multifloor fires in the towers, the widespread large area fires in WTC 7 and the aircraft impact at the Pentagon caused the destruction and loss of life of Sept 11/01
- various and sundry hidden from view enormous conspiracies involving, in some cases, unknown technologies (appeal to magic), and/or legerdemain.

I will accept the former.

In short, no you do not have enough evidence to prove something other than 4 suicide hijacker controlled aircraft were the initiating cause of the death and destruction of Sept 11/01.

 

[DeathDart]

I think he is claiming that when the steel was removed the workers saw huge numbers of steel beams with lots of holes in - "the swiss cheese" effect. The workers went WTF!?, never seen that before, that must have been caused by thermite. Everything was hushed up because of the odd looking steel, but the workers talked and the theory of thermite got out.


He's sort of right with this except that you don't need the additional step of producing the H2SO4. If he understood this report http://www.georgevandervoort.com/fa_lit_papers/World_Trade_Center.pdf he'd understand that sulphuric acid wasn't the culprit.

The report if I understand it correctly suggests a complex environment.
It is attacked by acid, and the the hydrogen that is created burns very close to the sample. Temperature of 950C reached. The flame temperature of hydrogen burning in air is 2200C.
Because of thermal conduction the steel sample moves heat to non-flame exposed areas.
The FeS liquifies and enters the structure of the steel. I guess it was nnear the surface since it would have enough oxygen for the flame and to account for some of the chemical reactions.

This in not inconsistent with exposure to a H2S at a high temperature. The environment seems too hot for Sulfuric Acid to form. It still reacts with the steel, and still produces hydrogen to produce a hot flame.

The second sample has copper mixed in. Either a hot conventional material fire or a hydrogen fed fire may have melted the copper on to the steel.
The molten copper would tend to indicate high temperatures though a low oxygen content. The copper may have melted purely from heat conduction and migrated as a liquid. Just a guess.

It would indicate more H2S gas corrosion than a liquid sulfuric acid attack. The H2S is more mobile and moves as a gas rather than the liquid (and gravity driven) sulfuric acid.

 

[DeathDart]

So George Bush was a total incompetent and an evil genius?

He was a coward and a weak man who wanted power. And no, we wouldn't have allowed him in the Evil Genius Union.

 

[Sabretooth]

WTC 7 WTC 1&2 all demolished.....all part of a master plan....come on....haters how do you explain WTC 7 falling down....no real fire...not hit by a plane...and crashes down in 6.5 seconds...something is very strange!!

Something tells me your not practicing what your handle suggests you preach.

 

[Sabretooth]

He was a coward and a weak man who wanted power. And no, we wouldn't have allowed him in the Evil Genius Union.

And, yet, he pulled off the GREATEST CONSPIRACY OF ALL TIME that, 10 years later, still hasn't been exposed.

Yeah, keep banging that drum...

 

[Animal]

Just a guess.

That sums up the troofer's claims about everything.

 

[DeathDart]

And, yet, he pulled off the GREATEST CONSPIRACY OF ALL TIME that, 10 years later, still hasn't been exposed.

Yeah, keep banging that drum...

Oh yeah, I reversed the exit port on your light saber, hope you can tie your shoe laces with your teeth.

 

[beachnut]

The report if I understand it correctly suggests a complex environment.
It is attacked by acid, and the the hydrogen that is created burns very close to the sample. Temperature of 950C reached. The flame temperature of hydrogen burning in air is 2200C.
Because of thermal conduction the steel sample moves heat to non-flame exposed areas.
The FeS liquifies and enters the structure of the steel. I guess it was nnear the surface since it would have enough oxygen for the flame and to account for some of the chemical reactions.

This in not inconsistent with exposure to a H2S at a high temperature. The environment seems too hot for Sulfuric Acid to form. It still reacts with the steel, and still produces hydrogen to produce a hot flame.

The second sample has copper mixed in. Either a hot conventional material fire or a hydrogen fed fire may have melted the copper on to the steel.
The molten copper would tend to indicate high temperatures though a low oxygen content. The copper may have melted purely from heat conduction and migrated as a liquid. Just a guess.

It would indicate more H2S gas corrosion than a liquid sulfuric acid attack. The H2S is more mobile and moves as a gas rather than the liquid (and gravity driven) sulfuric acid.

What does this mean? You are not a chemical engineer. Better take your nonsense to the fantasy science forum, over yonder.

 

[DeathDart]

And, yet, he pulled off the GREATEST CONSPIRACY OF ALL TIME that, 10 years later, still hasn't been exposed.

Yeah, keep banging that drum...

No, it was exposed. People, for what ever motives chose to protect it. The more that become aware of the conspiracies extents, the weaker it becomes.

The conspiracy became too large and too many members are having doubts. Few of the people aiding the conspiracy have actually committed crimes. They thought this was just politics in the gray areas of the law.

They will be given one chance, a choice to come over to the Jedi, or remain affiliated with the Sith.

When the choice is between acknowledging your mistakes or willingly choosing to be a traitor, it would seem to be an easy decision.

The Conspiracy will succeed or fail by these choices.

How will you choose?

 

[seewithyourowneyes]

Oops!

the building turned to dust...no? where did all the energy come from to turn the concrete into dust (ya have any idea how hard it is to do that and the amount of energy that would be required to turn it all into dust) maybe you do.....I do...and there wasn't enough energy left (if you believe the official lie) why...because there is energy required to SEVER all the connection points...by the floors "crashing into each other" hey if you want to believe that fine.....but why wait 411 days to start an investigation???? why??? oh so the people who planned it could make sure all the evidence was cleaned up....(yeah maybe the police should wait 411 days to start an investigation into a murder than you would be sure to gather all the important evidence)

I don't know who some of you are....I could care less unless you speak the truth....and the Truth is Not that 19 Arabs led by a man in a cave 6000 miles away demolished 3 WTC buildings.....where is the plane from flight 93? where is the evidence that a place actually flew into the pentagon? give me a break.....oh I bet you and others get paid to keep the lie going....I bet you believe JFK was shot by oswald too huh? Google Operation Northwoods...read it well see what little sneaks our little secret black op's/cia was doing back then......please jet fuel melting WTC....COME ON WHERE ARE THE PICTUERS OF A RAGING FIRE....IF YOU BELIEVE FIRE BROUGHT WTC 7 DOWN YOU ARE HIGH ON CRACK MY FRIENDS.....CAN YOU SAY DEMOLITION...COME ON DEMO LITION....EASY SOUND IT OUT.....

 

[DeathDart]

What does this mean? You are not a chemical engineer. Better take your nonsense to the fantasy science forum, over yonder.

I used to read a lot of science fiction, now I have a hard time not shredding the inherent assumptions.

Oh, you are saying that I am illegally in possession of knowledge, which only a knowledge licensed chemical engineer is allowed to possess?

 

[NoahFence]

the building turned to dust...no? where did all the energy come from to turn the concrete into dust (ya have any idea how hard it is to do that and the amount of energy that would be required to turn it all into dust) maybe you do.....I do...and there wasn't enough energy left (if you believe the official lie) why...because there is energy required to SEVER all the connection points...by the floors "crashing into each other" hey if you want to believe that fine.....but why wait 411 days to start an investigation???? why??? oh so the people who planned it could make sure all the evidence was cleaned up....(yeah maybe the police should wait 411 days to start an investigation into a murder than you would be sure to gather all the important evidence)

I don't know who some of you are....I could care less unless you speak the truth....and the Truth is Not that 19 Arabs led by a man in a cave 6000 miles away demolished 3 WTC buildings.....where is the plane from flight 93? where is the evidence that a place actually flew into the pentagon? give me a break.....oh I bet you and others get paid to keep the lie going....I bet you believe JFK was shot by oswald too huh? Google Operation Northwoods...read it well see what little sneaks our little secret black op's/cia was doing back then......please jet fuel melting WTC....COME ON WHERE ARE THE PICTUERS OF A RAGING FIRE....IF YOU BELIEVE FIRE BROUGHT WTC 7 DOWN YOU ARE HIGH ON CRACK MY FRIENDS.....CAN YOU SAY DEMOLITION...COME ON DEMO LITION....EASY SOUND IT OUT.....