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Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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NoahFence said:
I know the starting conditions. I did about 4 seconds into the collapse of the 1st building. Why is it taking you so long to figure out what I did immediately?
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Did you foresee that Bush would ration the facts about the WTC, to fool the conspiracy theorists into wasting their time there.
 
DeathDart said:
Because of the underground fires and the presence of heated gypsum and carbon monoxide substantial quantities of sulfuric acid (potentially several tons) could have formed, etching or dissolving steel nearby.

The sulfuric acid also produces hydrogen which burns with a flame temperature in air of approx 2400C. This can cause steel to melt. But all of this happens AFTER the collapse.

A computer model that was very detailed (lots of samples) that ran well with un-etched steel and that would fail with etched steel would mean that the steel was intact before the collapse. All the visibly damaged (eaten up steel) steel recovered would not mean anything. Especially if the physical survey placed it near an underground fire.
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I'm not sure whether to call this one weird or "different." Are you suggesting that something other than explosives, thermite, or the fire itself could have been found with the deeper inquiry you're saying should have taken place?
 
seewithyourowneyes said:
black budget....WTC 7....how long before the truth comes out in the mainstream media here in the USA? how long before the smart people who care about our future for our children and their children storm the WH and take our country back from the crooks who planned and carried out nine one one? How long? how long are you paid "doot-dee-doots" going to sit here and try to convince people that what we saw was a building falling in on itself do to fire?
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER was built and designed to withstand the impact of a jumbo jet. That includes the Boeing models 747,757,767,777.

Therefore when a Jumbo Jet, consisting primarily of merely a hollow pressurized cabin, impacts the reinforced concrete and steel support beams of the World Trade Center that it crumples on impact on the outside of the building and falls to the ground because of little encroachment into the building.

The American Media has told people that a Jet wing can cut through steel reinforced concrete designed to withstand the impact of a high speed jet impact.

America was told that what they witnessed was what appeared to be a jet flying completely into the World Trade Center as if it were Jello. What the American media reported was something that is physically impossible. This is another Single Bullet Theory.
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seewithyourowneyes said:
the fire wasn't hot? what planes? you mean the movie projector planes that Hollywood produced going into the towers....they even got the skyline wrong on one of their fake shots!!! black smoke coming out of a building = a cold fine...no O2 = black smoke...no o2 = cold fire not hot enough to burn or weaken any of the steel in the towers!!! none! Smart people who care about their country are not going to shut up until we die...in my care at least another 70 years....so if I were you I would quit wasting your time trying to sell the Official story...as it has way too many holes in it!
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And so it goes. :rolleyes:

Cool story bro, are you from 2006?
 
Porkpie Hat said:
Hang on, hang on, hang on!

One claim in your post really stands out.

We're suppose to be getting paid for this????

Not one of you could tell me that?

No memo, no PM's...not even a paper airplane with a dollar bill taped to it???

Can I back charge?
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Dammit! seewithyourowneyes let the cat out of the bag... someone cut Porkpie Hat a check.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
I'm not sure whether to call this one weird or "different." Are you suggesting that something other than explosives, thermite, or the fire itself could have been found with the deeper inquiry you're saying should have taken place?
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Do a search on converting gypsum to sulfuric acid. Under industrial conditions using clay and carbon (or carbon monoxide) at a temperature above 600C and most efficiently at 1400C will covert half of the gypsum by weight to sulfuric acid. The conditions after the collapse, and the persisting fires would be adequate to produce a large quantity of sulfuric acid. Perhaps several tons.

The sulfuric acid also produces hydrogen after it come into contact with the steel. The hydrogen burns with a flame temperature in air of approx 2400C. This can cause steel to melt. But all of this happens AFTER the collapse. The very high temperatures measured at the site were real. The molten steel was real.

Because of a transformer oil fire at WTC 7 AFTER the collapse, a lot more could have been produced there. That could explain why so little of WTC 7 was recovered, the steel would have looked pretty bad, and nobody was taking any chances on starting any investigations.

I still argue that Bush is hiding a lot, though WTC doesn't look like one of the places he is hiding something.

But this was NOT thermite.

It was actually a series of chemical reactions, powered by conventional fires in the debris mound.
 
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DeathDart said:
It was actually a series of chemical reactions, powered by conventional fires in the debris mound.
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Pure, unadulterated conjecture totally unsupported by evidence pulled without fanfare from your nether regions. And you complain about the NIST report?
 
The steel would have looked like swiss cheese.

Pasquale D'amuro was (probably) ordered to make the mess at WTC go away. The (possibly massive) quantities of eaten up steel had to disappear, and knowing his boss (Bush) he would not have interpreted it as something innocent. So they went into cover up mode for the wrong reasons.

Irony... Its not so bad.

Where are the flight recorders? Yes, I do like to be irritating.
 
The only problem with that idea... if you're arguing in favor of the same process that eroded the WTC 7 sample that took anywhere between days and weeks, not an hour or two... While sulfuric acid is highly corrosive I haven't heard of any rational explanation showing it'd create the eutectic reaction over the short time frame that'd be required...
 
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bill smith said:
I believe this gem from Mike Rivero absolutely. Who wants to deny this Truth.

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."
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Fairness is one thing, mass murder quite another.

Here's my response:

Truthers are individuals primarily living in a fantasy world of popular fiction based beliefs.

Believing that a hidden elite controls the world, that this hidden elite has at it's disposal a cadre of professional sociopaths and psychopaths that murder wholly innocent individuals in wholesale quantities without hesitation or remorse.

Believing in this false reality while aligning oneself against it and for "truth" allows for individuals with marginal lives to inflate their self esteem, and also allows them to experience a sense of community with other self deluded individuals.

Standing for "truth" also gives these types the opportunity to experience a sense of elitness themselves, as witnessed by the derogatory terms they often apply to individuals not participating in their shared delusions.

Far from being critical thinkers as they assert, these individuals choose to believe in a fictional construct so completely divorced from reality that even the most tortured explanations offered by the "truth movement" finds adherents. Turning the laws of physics upside down is the least of their delusions. The fantastic, the impossible and the improbabale are commonplace opinions and even when the laws of science contradict their theories they hold their theories close, and refuse to acknowledge the impossibility of their construct.

Given the similarites between religious fundementalists and the "truth" movement, one can only conclude that the "truthers" have simply adopted the method of "faith as fact" and applied it to their delusional beliefs.
 
DeathDart said:
I don't care care if you have a stack of PHD's, you wasted your money getting them.
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You don't have the education or the intelligence to make that judgement. I think that his money was well spent. What did you spend your money on? What are your qualifications?
 
twinstead said:
Pure, unadulterated conjecture totally unsupported by evidence pulled without fanfare from your nether regions. And you complain about the NIST report?
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http://www.ehow.com/how_5700758_extract-sulfur-gypsum.html
Roast the gypsum moderately in an oven, causing it to give off its "waters of hydration."
CaSO₄·2H₂O ' CaSO₄ + 2 H₂O'
The anhydrous calcium sulfate can then be processed further to obtain a separation or extraction of its sulfur content.
2
Heat the gypsum in a kiln to 600 to 900 degrees C in the presence of a reducing atmosphere such as hydrogen or carbon monoxide to produce calcium oxide and sulfur dioxide. Using hydrogen, for example,
CaSO₄ + H₂ ' CaO + H₂O + SO₂
Thus the gypsum is converted to calcium oxide (lime) and sulfur dioxide, both very useful products. The sulfur dioxide can then be further processed in at least two commercially profitable ways.

Read more: How to Extract Sulfur From Gypsum | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_5700758_extract-sulfur-gypsum.html#ixzz1TpAHj1kP
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SO2 combines with water to produce H2SO4 sulfuric acid.

So the debris after the collapse contains 100s(?) of tons of Gypsum.
It has fires producing carbon monoxide and carbon soot particles.
In some places heat, carbon monoxide, carbon soot ,concrete , and gypsum combine to make sulfuric acid.

If only .2% of the gypsum is converted, that is several tons of sulfuric acid.

On contact with steel that produces Iron Sulfides(?) and Hydrogen
The hydrogen burns (In Air) with a temperature of 2200C
Steel can melt at 1400C.

You have molten steel and you have a flame temperature of 2200C or 2400K.

Temperatures like this were seen on thermal images of the site. They were thought to be erroneous.

Not Thermite, Sulfuric Acid!

Without the heat and gases from the underground fires, the sulfuric acid would not have been produced in these kind of quantities. This may happen to some extent in all fires where gypsum is involved, it is usually produced as H2S gas and produces only minor corrosion though it can be a major cause of smoke inhalation damage. The conditions were a little unique at the WTC site, and the long burning fires produced a lot of sulfuric acid and hydrogen gas.
 
DeathDart said:
SO2 combines with water to produce H2SO4 sulfuric acid.

So the debris after the collapse contains 100s(?) of tons of Gypsum.
It has fires producing carbon monoxide and carbon soot particles.
In some places heat, carbon monoxide, carbon soot ,concrete , and gypsum combine to make sulfuric acid.

If only .2% of the gypsum is converted, that is several tons of sulfuric acid.

On contact with steel that produces Iron Sulfides(?) and Hydrogen
The hydrogen burns (In Air) with a temperature of 2200C
Steel can melt at 1400C.

You have molten steel and you have a flame temperature of 2200C or 2400K.

Temperatures like this were seen on thermal images of the site. They were thought to be erroneous.

Not Thermite, Sulfuric Acid!

Without the heat and gases from the underground fires, the sulfuric acid would not have been produced in these kind of quantities. This may happen to some extent in all fires where gypsum is involved, it is usually produced as H2S gas and produces only minor corrosion though it can be a major cause of smoke inhalation damage. The conditions were a little unique at the WTC site, and the long burning fires produced a lot of sulfuric acid and hydrogen gas.
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No qualifications then. Understood.
The ignition temperature of hydrogen in air is 500 degrees centigrade.
http://alternativefuels.about.com/od/hydrogen/a/safehydrogen.htm
That is just one of the many mistakes in your post. You would not made those mistakes if you actually had studied chemistry and physics.
 
seewithyourowneyes said:
the fire wasn't hot? what planes? you mean the movie projector planes that Hollywood produced going into the towers....they even got the skyline wrong on one of their fake shots!!! black smoke coming out of a building = a cold fine...no O2 = black smoke...no o2 = cold fire not hot enough to burn or weaken any of the steel in the towers!!! none! Smart people who care about their country are not going to shut up until we die...in my care at least another 70 years....so if I were you I would quit wasting your time trying to sell the Official story...as it has way too many holes in it!
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Welcome to JREF. I take it you're a "no planes" theorist? Please review the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoE8Uz2ia3M

The above link is a video of "all known footage of 2nd plane impact." There are over 20 different shots from all possible angles, at distances ranging from just under the building less than a block away to over 5 miles out. Most of these clips were taken by random citizens with random video cameras. Watch them carefully. They match. There are no inconsistencies from one to another.

If "they" used video trickery to generate fake planes, then please explain how random New Yorkers were able to capture images that exactly match the trajectory of:
  • the airplane
  • the debris ejecta,
  • the fuel bolus from the center fuel tanks (google " wtc pinocchio's nose " if you are unfamiliar with the contents of your own contention) which then burst into flame on exit creating
  • a fireball consistent in all video clips which left "no hole" in the outer curtain wall, but did leave a blackened circle of wall with the windows blown out an the aluminum cladding blown off.
  • the right - side jet engine exiting the building near the corner and leaving a spiralling trail of smoke before landing at the intersection of Church and Murray streets
  • the chunk of fuselage that was later found on a building top a couple blocks away

Airplanes crashing into buildings present an internally and externally consistent narrative; no-planes creates any number of inconsistencies with existing technology and observable reality.

Perhaps a more fertile (or at least, less well-trod) line of inquiry for you might be "How did al Quada get hold of the CIA mind control methods that are being used to create suicide bombers?"
 
The swiss cheese metal and thermite may be connected in a strange way.

You are removing steel from the WTC site and you see this swiss cheese steel. You have done demolition before, but you have never seen metal like this. Everything is hush, hush, about the swiss cheese steel. But you know what you have seen. Without knowing about the fires and the sulfuric acid you think it happened when the buildings collapsed.

This conspiracy leaked like a sieve. The people who saw the swiss cheese steel would have seen what appeared to be obviously the work of something like thermite. That is why the thermite connection was so strong. People had seen with their own eyes the swiss cheese steel combined with people who were trying to keep it quiet.

Thermite in the buildings or on the planes could explain what they saw. So much for keeping secrets.

Everyone, maybe even the FBI, thought it looked like the work of thermite. They were covering up for a rare natural occurrence.

It would be hard to argue about thermite with someone who had seen the Swiss Cheese metal themselves.
 
DeathDart said:
The swiss cheese metal and thermite may be connected in a strange way.

You are removing steel from the WTC site and you see this swiss cheese steel. You have done demolition before, but you have never seen metal like this. Everything is hush, hush, about the swiss cheese steel. But you know what you have seen. Without knowing about the fires and the sulfuric acid you think it happened when the buildings collapsed.

This conspiracy leaked like a sieve. The people who saw the swiss cheese steel would have seen what appeared to be obviously the work of something like thermite. That is why the thermite connection was so strong. People had seen with their own eyes the swiss cheese steel combined with people who were trying to keep it quiet.

Thermite in the buildings or on the planes could explain what they saw. So much for keeping secrets.

Everyone, maybe even the FBI, thought it looked like the work of thermite. They were covering up for a rare natural occurrence.

It would be hard to argue about thermite with someone who had seen the Swiss Cheese metal themselves.
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Proof for the above bolded assertions, please.
 
Let me get this straight -- you accept the chemistry and thermodynamics of sulfur cooking off the drywall in a reducing-atmosphere slow fire . . . but still manage to twist it into thermite?
 
WTC 7 WTC 1&2 all demolished.....all part of a master plan....come on....haters how do you explain WTC 7 falling down....no real fire...not hit by a plane...and crashes down in 6.5 seconds...something is very strange!!
 
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