Split Thread Mormons and marriage

The statistic thrown out isn't entirely complete, is the problem.

It's not that 50% of all marriages end in divorce. It's that 50% of all FIRST marriages end in divorce. Something like 65% of all second marriages end in divorce, and 75% of all third or more marriages end in divorce.

I've seen links to the stats posted here before, but I don't recall one off the top of my head.
Assuming that's accurate, it's certainly more damning of marriage, at least when approached from a religious point of view, with all the vows and other scriptural junk requiring/calling for permanence of the union.

I have mixed feelings about marriage as an institution. Its origins as a means of formalizing the transfer of women as chattel between men are fairly repugnant. It does have its secular uses in terms of financially protecting stay-at-home parents who may sacrifice their long-term earning potential in order to improve the lots of their children, and its civil recognition helps in issues such as when one partner has to make legal/financial/medical decisions for the other when s/he is not able to do so.

Unfortunately, religious nonsense (such as that espoused by some in this thread) continues to get in the way of treating it as it should in our 1st-amendment-based society: A legal contract and little more.
 
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Found a link. Not sure about the credibility, but it says basically what I was just told 2.5 weeks ago in a seminar on the subject of divorce: http://www.divorcerate.org/

The divorce rate in America for first marriage, vs second or third marriage
50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages end in divorce, according to Jennifer Baker of the Forest Institute of Professional Psychology in Springfield, Missouri.
 
Basic science and biology takes gender into account. Two men cannot produce offspring, and neither can two women; it takes one of each. Two men cannot marry, and neither can two women; it takes one of each. It's a simple, basic, unalterable rule about how human life works. Marriage is based on it. Family is based on it. Any stable society is based on it.

Unless you deny marriage to all people who fail to produce offspring, marriage is not based on it.
Marriage is a human construct and is not dependent on reproduction.
 
But marriage is what it is, and it is very sacred and important to us, and we don't accept the idea that we must be forced to accept a vulgar, fraudulent mockery of it as being in any way comparable to the real thing; and we don't think that society, as a whole, should be subjected to the ills that will unavoidably be caused by undermining marriage and family as the basis for society.

How does allowing homosexuals to marry in any way harm other marriages?
If I build a safe house, is yours undermined?
 
Bob, you are wrong.

Tell the gays and lesbians in Canada that are married that what they are doing can't happen. Tell that to the gay and lesbian couples in Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Vermont and Washington, D.C..


That's simply nonsense. Marriage is between a man and a woman. There is simply no such thing as any marriage that is not between a man and a woman. Passing a law to define marriage any other way is as meaningless as passing a law that requires two plus two to equal ten.
 
IIRC, they will then install a theocracy. Won't that be fun? You won't have to wear a uniform but I'm afraid you will need to purchase regulation underwear.

11th Article of Faith.... look it up, RF (come on man, you used to know this stuff).
 
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That's simply nonsense. Marriage is between a man and a woman. There is simply no such thing as any marriage that is not between a man and a woman. Passing a law to define marriage any other way is as meaningless as passing a law that requires two plus two to equal ten.

Since marriage is a human construct, passing a law to define marriage any way the law defines marriage is far from meaningless.
Your analogy is silly beyond belief.
 
I'm not sure when it will be needed. Perhaps never. However, I'm not overly impressed with a 50% divorce rate. I'm not even sure marriage is something we should value.


You're looking at it exactly backward. You question whether marriage should be valued, because tragically, our society has a high rate of failed marriages. I say that this high rate of failed marriages—along with the broken homes and all the ills that go therewith—is a result of our society's failure to properly value marriage and family.

The push for “gay marriage” and other abominations, is simply another symptom of exactly the same evil that is at the root of such a high rate of failed families.
 
Okay, so, I'm trying to read that PDF, and I'm finding it a little hard to follow. Perhaps I've just not had enough caffeine yet today. It also might be a terminology issue.

For me, polyandry (as with polygamy and polygyny) means that the marriages are simultaneous. But the article makes reference to women leaving their husbands (it does not specify if divorce is happening, or legal separations, or what) to be with Smith, and that the leaving of a husband to be with another man who could better guarantee you entry to heaven is fine with Mormon doctrine. To me, if you have left one husband, and you then go on to marry someone else afterwards, that's not polyandry. But the article is kind of fuzzy on the timelines for these things, so I'm really not sure what to make of it.


The article is a very confusing description of a practice that is not really so confusing at all.

In Modern Mormonism, this practice is regarded as having been in error; basically part of the “growing pains” of a new church, trying to make sense of its beliefs and what to do about some of them.

We Mormons believe that marriage is intended to be, not just for this mortal life, but for all eternity.

It was widely thought, back then, that a woman could be assured a better place in the afterlife if she was married to a man who she was sure would achieve the highest level, instead of to a man who might fall short. So there were a number of women who married “for time only” to their proper husbands, but had themselves sealed to Joseph Smith or to other high leaders, on the assumption that in the afterlife, they would be married to these leaders, and would share the higher place in Heaven that they assumed these leaders would occupy, but that they didn't assume that their own husbands would achieve.

As I said, we now believe this practice to have been in error. It is my understanding that where this is known to have occurred, that the Temple work has since been done to seal these women to their proper husbands.

In any event, as with the previous “evidence” provided by Epepke, this doesn't actually support the claim that he says it does. If the practice described therein were to stand as valid, the effect would be that at death, the women in question were essentially divorced from their mortal husbands, and remarried to Joseph Smith or other church leaders. It is not an example of any woman having two marriages to two different men in effect at the same time.

I'm not going to take the position that the church never has, or never will allow anything that can honestly be described as “polyandry”, much less “group marriage”. But so far, Epepke, who made the claim, has twice provided “evidence” to support the claim, which, in fact, entirely failed to support it at all.
 
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Mormons practiced polyandry as well as polygyny.

Anyway, this is one of the few things that IMO Mormons got right, and it's quite funny to me that it's the one thing they really go ape-fertilizer over when it's mentioned.

I hadn't heard about that before. For some reason that got me thinking about Paint Your Wagon....
Partner: Now, Elizabeth, let's try and be reasonable about this.
Ben: For God's sake, make up your mind!
Elizabeth: l can't. l love both of you.
Partner: But that ain't going to work. You can't have both of us.
Elizabeth: Why not?
Ben: Why not?
Elizabeth: Why not?
Partner: A woman can't have two husbands.
Elizabeth: l was married to a man who had two wives. Why can't a woman have two husbands?
Partner: Because you can't.
Elizabeth: Well, why?
Partner: You explain it to her, Ben.
Ben: l'd like to oblige, Pardner, but l'll be damned if l can think of a reason. Out here we make up our own rules as we go along. A man with two wives wants to sell one at auction, nobody thinks twice. lf a town needs females, hijacking 'em seems the natural thing to do. And if two pardners want to share a wife, why not? This ain't Michigan. lt's gold country. Why, hell, it's the golden country! Untouched and uncontaminated by human hands! People can look civilisation in the eye and spit! You don't have to please anybody, don't have to love thy neighbour. lt's wild, human and free, and all over this nation, they preach against it every Sunday. But l don't think God's listening. You know why? Because he's here, in glorious California!
Partner: You trying to say you're willing?
Ben: l am. l think it's a humane, practical, beautiful solution.
Elizabeth: lt does make a lot of sense.
Partner: lt don't.
Ben: lt don't in Michigan. lt does in California.
Partner: What's everybody gonna say?
Ben: Who are you talking about? You mean everybody in town playing them French horns? They'd be damn glad to have two less in line.
Partner: You're right.
Ben: Of course l'm right. lt's not like somebody was asking you to do something immoral, like stealing gold!
Partner: lt ain't as bad as all that.
Ben: What the hell's bad about it? Show me on that list of commandments where it says a woman can't have two husbands.
Partner: There ain't no commandment like that! Hot damn! l think it's great! lt's history-making!


However, looking it up on the internet, all I find are references to Joseph Smith marrying other men's wives. Were polyandrous relationships generally accepted in the Mormon faith, or was Joseph Smith the sole exception?
 
In Modern Mormonism, this practice is regarded as having been in error; basically part of the “growing pains” of a new church, trying to make sense of its beliefs and what to do about some of them.

How do we know when a practice is no longer 'in error' and is just right?
When does a'growing pain' stop being a 'growing pain'?
When does a belief stop needing to be made sense of?
When do we know what to do about the things we believe, as opposed to what not to do about them??
It sounds like utter nonsense to me.

And how does my building a house undermine your house?
 
Found one. Elizabeth Brough. See http://www.broughfamily.org/history/brough_tipton.html

I think you'd probably be surprised at a lot of facts.


Reading through that page, it seems she divorced her first husband (Samuel Cartlidge) in 1863 and married her second husband (Enoch Tipton) in 1864. So she did have two husbands, but not the same time.

So, no. Not polyandry.

EDIT: Dammit. Kopji, Bob Blaylock and Tesscaline all beat me to it. Should have read the rest of the thread before replying.
 
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How do we know when a practice is no longer 'in error' and is just right?
When does a'growing pain' stop being a 'growing pain'?
When does a belief stop needing to be made sense of?
When do we know what to do about the things we believe, as opposed to what not to do about them??
It sounds like utter nonsense to me.

And how does my building a house undermine your house?


We'll probably know for sure only when Jesus returns, and clears up for us what we are still doing wrong. Until then, we imperfect, mortal men will muddle along figuring out what we can from what guidance we've been given.
 
Sure I did. Here's more.

http://mccue.cc/bob/documents/rs.early mormon polyandry.pdf

If you can't read that, it's your own problem.


At a quick glance, it appears to be about Joseph Smith. Since I'm not interested enough in the subject to closely examine a nine page PDF opinion piece in search of information that probably isn't there, can you specify in which paragraph on which page that it talks about a polyandrous marriage other than Joseph Smith's?

It does contain a link to an eleven-page PDF titled "A Tale of Two Marriage Systems: Perspectives on Polyandry and Joseph Smith", but that too seems concerned solely with Joseph Smith's personal arrangements.
 
That's simply nonsense. Marriage is between a man and a woman. There is simply no such thing as any marriage that is not between a man and a woman.


Marriage is a human construct. We have the right to define marriage in whatever way that best fits society's needs. If same-sex couples are living in relationships functionally identical to marriage, and society agrees they should have the same legal rights as opposite-sex couples, then surely the only sane course of action is to extend the legal definition of marriage to include them?

You say "marriage is between a man and a woman". Fine, make that assertion. But that doesn't tell us what marriage is. And without describing your concept of what marriage is, we have no reason to take this assertion seriously.

Personally, I regard marriage as a life partnership. There's nothing about this concept that requires it to be between "a man and a woman". Just between two (or more) persons.

Passing a law to define marriage any other way is as meaningless as passing a law that requires two plus two to equal ten.


In the Base 4 numbering system, 2+2=10. Really!
 
That's simply nonsense. Marriage is between a man and a woman. There is simply no such thing as any marriage that is not between a man and a woman. Passing a law to define marriage any other way is as meaningless as passing a law that requires two plus two to equal ten.
Nonsense. Marriage is a human social construct it can, and has, been defined in different ways by different cultures.
 
Passing a law to define marriage any other way is as meaningless as passing a law that requires two plus two to equal ten.


In the Base 4 numbering system, 2+2=10. Really!


Yes, but in base four, 10 isn't ten; it's four. In base four, ten is 22. And two plus two doesn't equal it, not even if you can get a law passed that says it must.

Ten isn't necessarily “10”. Ten is this quantity:
••••••••••​
It's only “10” in base ten, but that is a characteristic of any base, that whatever number it is that us being used as the base will be “10” in that base.

•• plus •• does not equal ••••••••••, no matter what numeric system you do the math in.
 
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Reading through that page, it seems she divorced her first husband (Samuel Cartlidge) in 1863 and married her second husband (Enoch Tipton) in 1864. So she did have two husbands, but not the same time.

So, no. Not polyandry.

EDIT: Dammit. Kopji, Bob Blaylock and Tesscaline all beat me to it. Should have read the rest of the thread before replying.


Don't feel bad. All it shows is that Epepke is not paying nearly as much attention to what his “evidence” really says, as any of us who are actually looking at it. The more of us there are that notice such details as this, before having read where others have already spotted it, the better the point is made that Epepke simply has no clue what his own “evidence” does or does not prove.
 
Yes, but in base four, 10 isn't ten; it's four. In base four, ten is 22. And two plus two doesn't equal it, not even if you can get a law passed that says it must.

Ten isn't necessarily “10”. Ten is this quantity:
••••••••••​
It's only “10” in base ten, but that is a characteristic of any base, that whatever number it is that us being used as the base will be “10” in that base.


Bob, did someone remove your ability to detect humor? It was a joke. Sort of like the t-shirt that reads...

There are 10 kinds of people
Those who understand binary
And those who don't.​
 

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