Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Dogzilla]

The snippet suggests that the boys who had been in four or five camps had heard about Treblinka. Knowledge of Treblinka was universal in the Warsaw ghetto after summer 1942 and widespread in many other late-surviving ghettos like Bialystok.

Could be. But it could also suggest that Treblinka had been the worst of the camps that some of the boys had been in. Ultimately though, it's the statement of a director of an orphanage summarizing what several of his charges told him that was written down by a reporter during a conversation and possibly reworked by an editor before ending up in print. It's interesting but not conclusive in any way.

 

[Clayton Moore]

This is something I wrote in 2004 in a published article:

"In April 1942, 37 transports of Jews amounted to just over 1 percent of 3,523 special trains and upwards of 30,000 scheduled trains"

The source is a report by the state secretary for transport (Der Beauftragte der Vierjahresplan, Geschaeftsgruppe Verkehr, Taetigkeitsbericht fuer April 1942, May 18 1942, Bundesarchiv Berlin R26 IV/47)

Those were the transports from Germany, Austria and the Czech Protectorate, and that's how little the deportation affected railway resources in Germany. 10s of 1000s of trains - every month.

France, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland - they all had their own railways just like Germany. That's how people got around in those days. There were plenty of trains.

You might like also to consider three more facts

1) The Nazis moved around a hell of a lot of civilian labourers, prisoners of war and evacuees. Here is a short guide on Wikipedia to the forced labour program which meant there were 7 million foreign workers inside Germany by 1944. Virtually all came by train over the same kind of distances, and all had to be housed somewhere, many were housed in camps in every German town and city.

2) The Nazis didn't have to move that many Jews. More than 2 million were killed where they lived. Only 3 million were actually deported, and most were deported inside Poland, and didn't have very far to go. Warsaw to Treblinka is hardly any distance at all.

3) To keep someone alive for a year, you need several times their bodyweight to feed them. Deporting someone to be exterminated would actually save on transportation costs, versus keeping them alive.

2 million killed where they lived? Again the Jewish people just hung in there and got themselves killed. Way to go Nick. Way to disrespect Jewish people of the 40s.

 

[Clayton Moore]

The snippet suggests that the boys who had been in four or five camps had heard about Treblinka. Knowledge of Treblinka was universal in the Warsaw ghetto after summer 1942 and widespread in many other late-surviving ghettos like Bialystok.

Spit it out Nick. These kids and women with child and babies and old people how did they survive in death camps for years and become Holocaust survivors if they couldn't work?

 

[tsig]

That's what happens when the lives of you and your loved one's are threatened.

Your heroes turn out to be wimps.

 

[LemmyCaution]

My understanding is that number dramatically rose in the closing 18 months of the war

I chose 1943 as it was within the operational time-span of the AR camps, which was to address Clayton's logistical argument: the Third Reich, whilst putting to death a few thousand of its uniformed personnel for various infractions, could no doubt spare 500, more or less, to run death camps. This being so, the effort requiring more manpower of various sorts that Clayton has to deal with is the deportations (well, there are others Clayton is ignoring, to name two, open air shootings and the entire concentration camp system), which are very well documented but most be denied for the logistical argument to convince even Clayton. So I wanted to understand his stance on the deportations, not his quibbling over how many 500s and 1000s of guards and SS ran the killing centers or whether the Wehrmacht executed soldiers for various infractions.

 

[tsig]

I fully agree that the skinheads are devoid of honor or any other desirable quality. They really are a bunch of hateful racist criminals. Why hasn't the JDL made a frontal assault against them? I guess it's easier to beat up old men and sneak around bombing their homes.

Yep, a bare knuckled beat down always produces the truth.

 

[Pacal]

Originally Posted by Gene Alley

The men like Butz, Farrussion, Zundel, Rudolph, Weber and others are not in the catagory of the former group by any means. These are revisionist historians who dispute historical facts in a peaceful and orderly manner as per the first ammendment of the US Constitution. None of them have been charged with committing any acts of violence against Jews or suggested that others should physically attack Jews or anyone else.

What is troubling to me is the way many of these revisionists have been persecuted and physically attacked and intimidated by the so called good guys. I am in favor of the free exchange of ideas peacefully by civilized debate.

Absolutely hilarious. Butz when it comes to the Holocaust is postively rabid. His picture of Jews lying to make money is straight up anti-semitism. Farrussion is a total loon who massages data to fit his preconceptions. Just read the way he dealt with Serny's Into That Darkness. (It is in a posting above). As for Zundel. I see your still totally clueless about the revelations about his activities as indicated in the above posts, or the fact that Zundel is a fanatical Hitler hugger. As for Weber you don't seem to be aware that Weber was news editor of the National Vanguard, a publication of William Pierce, a fanatical Neo-Nazi who wrote The Turner Diaries. You of course forget that Weber focuses on the "Jews" who he regards as a threat and also sees collectively. Oh and Weber reffers to Jews as "the traditional enemies of truth". As for Rudolph his report is as worthless as Leuchter's.

And of course we have the whine. The revisionits never stop whining about how presecuted they are. Of course Zundel blames "Zionists" for his plight and "persecution". Weber, if his writings are anything to go on, is obsessed with Jews. Butz seems to fantasize about Jews as millenial liars from long ago. Well guess what it seems that your bunch of so-called Historians seem to be a bunch of anti-semitic loons.

But then there is no need to take anything you say seriously. Considering you have already said such standard denier pap has modern day Germany is a puppet state and that Jews routinely exaggerate their suffering i.e., lie, another piece of denier pap.

 

[MaxMurx]

By the way the term "Untermensch" was not used commonly at all. It was received by translating an American textbook of Eugenics, written by P. Popenoe. "Untermensch" was the transaltion of "Under Man". Himmler then later produced a pamphlet to insult Russian military personnel in which that word was used. That pamphlet was withdrawn on request of the Wehrmacht. The universal view of others as "Untermensch" by the nazis seems to be another propaganda scam.

 

[Gene Alley]

Absolutely hilarious. Butz when it comes to the Holocaust is postively rabid. His picture of Jews lying to make money is straight up anti-semitism. Farrussion is a total loon who massages data to fit his preconceptions. Just read the way he dealt with Serny's Into That Darkness. (It is in a posting above). As for Zundel. I see your still totally clueless about the revelations about his activities as indicated in the above posts, or the fact that Zundel is a fanatical Hitler hugger. As for Weber you don't seem to be aware that Weber was news editor of the National Vanguard, a publication of William Pierce, a fanatical Neo-Nazi who wrote The Turner Diaries. You of course forget that Weber focuses on the "Jews" who he regards as a threat and also sees collectively. Oh and Weber reffers to Jews as "the traditional enemies of truth". As for Rudolph his report is as worthless as Leuchter's.

And of course we have the whine. The revisionits never stop whining about how presecuted they are. Of course Zundel blames "Zionists" for his plight and "persecution". Weber, if his writings are anything to go on, is obsessed with Jews. Butz seems to fantasize about Jews as millenial liars from long ago. Well guess what it seems that your bunch of so-called Historians seem to be a bunch of anti-semitic loons.

But then there is no need to take anything you say seriously. Considering you have already said such standard denier pap has modern day Germany is a puppet state and that Jews routinely exaggerate their suffering i.e., lie, another piece of denier pap.

I don't think that Irv Rubin or Mier Kahane could have said it better.

Removed breach. Keep it civil, and address the argument rather than attacking the arguer.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Gene Alley]

You missed this bit.

As anyone who follows the subject of the Holocaust denial knows, from 1991 until 1994 I was well known in the movement as a Jewish Holocaust denier (a self-described "revisionist"). For the last three years I have no longer been associated with this movement, having realized that I was wrong and that the path I was taking with my life was self-destructive and hurtful to others. I have spent the last few years in silence on the subject of my time with the denial movement, a silence caused mainly by my shame at what I had done with my life and my desire to distance myself from that life.

However, in that shame-induced silence it has been brought to my attention that I have not gone as far as I should have to make a clear and complete public statement in order to set the record straight as to where I stand.

It is my great hope that this statement accomplishes that task.

I would like to state for the record that there is no question in my mind that during the Holocaust of Europe's Jews during World War Two, the Nazis employed gas chambers in an attempt to commit genocide against the Jews. At camps in both Eastern and Western Europe, Jews were murdered in gas chambers which employed such poison gases as Zyklon B and carbon monoxide (in the Auschwitz camp, for example, the gas chambers used Zyklon B). The evidence for this is overwhelming and unmistakable.

The Nazis intended to kill all of the Jews of Europe, and the final death toll of this attempted genocide was six million. This atrocity, unique in its scope and breadth, must never be forgotten.

During my four years as a denier, I was wracked with self-hate and loathing, a fact that many of my critics were quick to point out. Indeed, this self hatred was obvious to most, but I was too blind to see it. The hate I had for myself I took out on my people. I was seduced by pseudo-historical nonsense and clever-sounding but empty ideas and catch-phrases. When my eyes were finally opened, thanks to several good, kind friends who refused to give up on me even at my worst, I was horrified by what I had done. My instinct was to flee and never look back, but I now understand that I owe it to the people I wronged to make a forceful repudiation of my earlier views. I also owe a very large apology, not only to the many people I enraged, and to the family and friends I hurt, but especially to the survivors of the Holocaust, who deserve only our respect and compassion, not re-victimization.

Therefore, to all of the above people, let me offer my most humble and very, very sincere apology. I am sorry for what did, and I am sorry for the hurt I caused.

And just as I must set the record straight concerning my views, it is also incumbent on me to set the record straight regarding the video "documentaries" and media appearances I did from 1991 to 1994. These "documentaries" are merely videotaped garbage filled with self-hatred and pseudo-intellectual nonsense. My "media appearances" were nothing but an embarrassment. My glazed look, specious reasoning, and talking-in-circles during my talk show appearances would have hopefully alerted any astute viewers that this was a man not in touch with reality.

It has been brought to my attention that Bradley Smith is still using one of my videos in advertisements he is running on college campuses. Therefore, I would like to make these additional points: This video is being advertised without my consent, and I denounce this video as being without worth. Bradley Smith is no historian, and denial is no "historical field". Students on college campuses should look elsewhere to find out about the Holocaust. To these students I would say, look to books like Hilberg's "Destruction of the European Jews", Yahil's "The Holocaust", and Dawidowicz's "War Against the Jews" for correct information. If your school library doesn't stock these books, have them order copies. Do not pay any attention to any "David Cole" videos, except to rightly denounce them as frauds.

I am thankful for being given the opportunity to make this statement. This statement is made freely and under no duress, and is quite willingly, even happily, given to Mr. Irv Rubin of the Jewish Defense League for the widest possible distribution. This statement is the most current and accurate compilation of my views, and it supersedes an previous writings, videos, or statements. It is my hope that there will be no more confusion as to where I stand. I thank you for letting me set the record straight.

[Signed]

David Cole

[notarized]

When this letter is taken in context regarding Cole's former writings and interviews followed by physical attacks and continual threats by a group of criminal thugs, it appears to be a document that was written by someone who was blackmailing him to sign it under the threat of death. I'm sure that Mr Cole is not available for comment about anything, ever again.

Signed and notorized.


This letter is so obviously contrived it's ridiculous. It reminds me of several recantation statements by suddeny compromised witnesses before trial in gang cases. They were obviously written by defense council with a space for date and signature. The change of heart usually takes place shortly after some members of the defendant's crew had a little talk with him.;

 

[Wroclaw]

Is that supposed to be a response to anything that has been posted on this page?

I notice that all of you have failed to respond regarding the subject of cowardly attacks against these revisionists that I have pointed out. Does this mean that you secretly approve of the behavior of the Rubins, Kahanes and the Levys and their merry band of loudmouthed gutless criminals?
Wow, you guys are good!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZtbASCE7ZY

Do I think that Holocaust deniers would do with a good beating?

Yeah, frankly I do.

 

[Wroclaw]

The fact that Kahane was a member of the Knesset speaks volumes about their government.

Really? That he got 1.2% of the popular vote in a single Israeli election? Because that's the threshold he had to pass to get elected: 1%.

That would be comparable to having Tom Metzger serve as a US Senator.

You're aware that Metzger ran for U.S. House four years before Kahane was elected, right? And that he got the Democratic Party nomination, yes? With 33,000 votes. Kahane got 25,000 in '84.

There aren't primaries in Israel because it's a single-chamber, multi-party parliamentary system that uses FPTP (look it up). If Metzger had run in a system similar to Israel's, he'd have been elected to the chamber. In fact, based on the percentage of votes he got based on the constituency voting, Metzger's party would have won multiple seats. Kahane's party (Kach) got ONE seat.

You <snip> really should at least do a cursory Wikipedia search before you shoot your big *********** mouths off.

However Israel has a long history of electing terrorist murderers to high government positions.

I'm aware of two: Begin and Shamir. And Shamir was never really elected; he was PM in two unity governments with power-sharing based on elections that were essentially too close to call. He's probably the least popular PM who ever served, except for Shimon Peres, who was literally never elected to the position with a majority.

It's a little different, btw, in a parliamentary system like Israel's, because you don't directly elect the PM; rather, you vote for a party, and that party chooses its own list, the winner of whom becomes PM by default. So really Begin was never directly elected PM. Only Netanyahu (first term), Barak, and Sharon (in 2001) were elected directly, for a ten-year (or so) period where they experimented with direct election for the PM.

But yes, Begin and Shamir were terrorists. And Andrew Jackson was one of the worst war criminals in world history. And Vladimir Putin ran the KGB. Hitler committed treason. So, arguably, did Willy Brandt.

What's your point?

I'm sure that criminal terrorist organizations like JDL have a large base of support in Israel.

Yes, you've shown that your breadth of knowledge on such things is truly unmatched.

<snip>

Edited to remove breaches and to properly mask profanity. Cut out the name calling and do not attempt to evade the auto-censor.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Wroclaw]

2 million killed where they lived? Again the Jewish people just hung in there and got themselves killed. Way to go Nick. Way to disrespect Jewish people of the 40s.

So when the Wehrmacht runs the Red Army out of your town, and a day or so later, men with machine guns roll in and order you out of your house at the end of a gun, walk you to the edge of town, hand you a shovel and tell you to start digging, what do YOU do?

Answer me. Do it now or admit you're wrong on this one.

 

[Wroclaw]

I don't think that Irv Rubin or Mier Kahane could have said it better.

Edited by LashL: 

Removed quote of moderated content.

You should demonstrate any part of his post that is wrong, rather than flinging invective.

 

[Clayton Moore]

So when the Wehrmacht runs the Red Army out of your town, and a day or so later, men with machine guns roll in and order you out of your house at the end of a gun, walk you to the edge of town, hand you a shovel and tell you to start digging, what do YOU do?

Answer me. Do it now or admit you're wrong on this one.

It never fails. You present a preposterous scenario, because of the numbers, and challenge me in isolation from the 2 million number.

What would be the range of the marauding German units following the Wehrmacht?

After the first 10,000 wouldn't the word be out that the Jewish people are in peril?

What would be the size of an area that would have 2 million Jewish people?

 

[erwinl]

It never fails. You present a preposterous scenario, because of the numbers, and challenge me in isolation from the 2 million number.

What would be the range of the marauding German units following the Wehrmacht?

After the first 10,000 wouldn't the word be out that the Jewish people are in peril?

What would be the size of an area that would have 2 million Jewish people?

Are you using this argument again? After being shown other instances when large amounts of people were killed without the victims fighting back? Like the Armenian genocide, Srebrenica, the Killing Fields in Cambodia?
And where were those 2 million jews all in the same place, as in the same town? Who said that?

 

[little grey rabbit]

Really? That he got 1.2% of the popular vote in a single Israeli election? Because that's the threshold he had to pass to get elected: 1%.



You're aware that Metzger ran for U.S. House four years before Kahane was elected, right? And that he got the Democratic Party nomination, yes? With 33,000 votes. Kahane got 25,000 in '84.

There aren't primaries in Israel because it's a single-chamber, multi-party parliamentary system that uses FPTP (look it up). If Metzger had run in a system similar to Israel's, he'd have been elected to the chamber. In fact, based on the percentage of votes he got based on the constituency voting, Metzger's party would have won multiple seats. Kahane's party (Kach) got ONE seat.

You <snip> really should at least do a cursory Wikipedia search before you shoot your big *********** mouths off.



I'm aware of two: Begin and Shamir. And Shamir was never really elected; he was PM in two unity governments with power-sharing based on elections that were essentially too close to call. He's probably the least popular PM who ever served, except for Shimon Peres, who was literally never elected to the position with a majority.

It's a little different, btw, in a parliamentary system like Israel's, because you don't directly elect the PM; rather, you vote for a party, and that party chooses its own list, the winner of whom becomes PM by default. So really Begin was never directly elected PM. Only Netanyahu (first term), Barak, and Sharon (in 2001) were elected directly, for a ten-year (or so) period where they experimented with direct election for the PM.

But yes, Begin and Shamir were terrorists. And Andrew Jackson was one of the worst war criminals in world history. And Vladimir Putin ran the KGB. Hitler committed treason. So, arguably, did Willy Brandt.

What's your point?



Yes, you've shown that your breadth of knowledge on such things is truly unmatched.

<snip>

Ariel Sharon would fit most definitions of terrorist.

Israeli historian Avi Shlaim describes the massacre thus: "Sharon's order was to penetrate Qibya, blow up houses and inflict heavy casualties on its inhabitants. His success in carrying out the order surpassed all expectations. The full and macabre story of what happened at Qibya was
revealed only during the morning after the attack. The village had been reduced to rubble: forty-five houses had been blown up, and sixty-nine civilians, two thirds of them women and children, had been killed. Sharon and his men claimed that they believed that all the inhabitants had run away and that they had no idea that anyone was hiding inside the houses."

The UN observer on the scene reached a different conclusion: "One story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshhold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them." The slaughter in Qibya was described contemporaneously in a letter to the president of the United Nations Security Council dated 16 October 1953 (S/3113) from the Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary of Jordan to the United States. On 14 October 1953 at 9:30 at night, he wrote, Israeli troops launched a battalion-scale attack on the village of Qibya in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (at the time the West Bank was annexed to Jordan).

According to the diplomat's account, Israeli forces had entered the village and systematically murdered all occupants of houses, using automatic weapons, grenades and incendiaries. On 14 October, the bodies of 42 Arab civilians had been recovered; several more bodies were still under the wreckage. Forty houses, the village school and a reservoir had been destroyed. Quantities of unused explosives, bearing Israel army markings in Hebrew, had been found in the village. At about 3 a.m., to cover their withdrawal, Israeli support troops had begun shelling the
neighbouring villages of Budrus and Shuqba from positions in Israel.

http://www.counterpunch.org/sharon.html

It would be difficult to find Hitler or Putin personally doing anything like that.

 

[LemmyCaution]

After the first 10,000 wouldn't the word be out that the Jewish people are in peril?

What would be the size of an area that would have 2 million Jewish people?

Yes and no. First, Jews in the east were relatively powerless, certainly without meaningful defenses as the Germans swept eastward. Second, whilst Jews in parts of the east knew that the coming of the Nazis was a bad thing for them (many fled further east along with non-Jews), the harm expected was not that the Germans would wipe out the Jewish population. Third, as they swept east, in summer 1941, the Germans did not have a master plan to slaughter all eastern Jews. The mass killings, in fact, began with the male Jews and only began to encompass the entire Jewish population in occupied areas by August. Fourth, in the context and without the benefit of hindsight, the mass murders at first appeared as local pogrom-like outrages, not as the general extermination of a whole group of people. Fifth, as the killings continued into the fall, some Jews, mainly activists, did realize that their precarious situation had become dire. In Vilna, for example, the Jewish youth organizations organized an underground, issued a warning on New Year's Day 1942 declaring that "Ponar means death" and that the Nazis aimed to slaughter the Jews, dispatched couriers to other Jewish communities, and began preparing for self-defense. Seventh, as the Germans conquered new areas after the initial offensive, many Jews in these places did resist but were done in by overwhelming force. Arad's recent book on the Holocaust in the USSR includes material on resistance and attempted evasion. Seventh, even when Jews suspected the meaning of German orders, the Germans played on emotions and encouraged hope with false stories and actions designed to deceive the victims. Most often was the notion of resettlement for labor: so distrusting did some Jews become of this rationale for the actions that in one case in a different context, Warsaw January 1943, when a removal of ghetto Jews to labor camps was announced, the Jews resisted in the firm conviction that more transports to Treblinka were in the offing. And, eighth, the slaughter didn't unfold at the same time or pace in all places - for example, in the Baltics most of the Jews remaining there at the time of Barbarossa were dead by end of 1941, whilst the mass murder didn't reach high gear in Belorussia until 1942.

For all these reasons, Clayton Moore's view can be shown to reflect his own version of "common sense" but not the situation and its development in 1941-1942.

I should think that Clayton would be sufficiently well versed, as someone who opines vociferously on these matters, to know where eastern Jews lived and which territory the Reich conquered and controlled in the east, so I take his last question as rhetorical posturing.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I don't think that Irv Rubin or Mier Kahane could have said it better.

Edited by LashL: 

Removed quote of moderated content.

Here is the spectacle of Gene Alley, who popped in here some time ago posing as a fence sitter and citing good arguments "on both sides," and who has posted exclusively with memes and gambits culled from the sad history of denial, lecturing forum members on the evils of playing loose with facts.

 

[Nick Terry]

Spit it out Nick. These kids and women with child and babies and old people how did they survive in death camps for years and become Holocaust survivors if they couldn't work?

There are always exceptions to the rule, is why. Quite a few are known, and they don't add up to much. Mengele selecting twins for experiments, that sort of thing.

Can you prove that more than 1% of "these kids and women with child and babies and old people" survived Auschwitz if they were Jewish?