Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Clayton Moore]

So are you denying that Jews were deported from the Reich, including Austria and the Protectorate; from Western Europe; from the General-Gouvernement (e.g., Lodz, Warsaw, Lublin, and other locations large and small); Hungary; Slovakia; Greece; and other parts of Nazi occupied Europe?

We've already seen that, to run 3 death camps, the Nazis had to divert fewer personnel than the number of soldiers they executed in a year for violations of military rules--fewer than 500 German SS, Ukrainians, and ethnic Germans. Auschwitz-Birkenau was run by something like 2000 people--throwing in that total we are still under the number of military executions for 1943. So clearly running the camps where gassings took place wasn't a drain on wartime manpower. So tell us about the deportations of some Jews across Europe and many, many others to the death camp down the road.

You're saying the Germans executed over 2500 of their own soldiers in 1943?

 

[dafydd]

You're saying the Germans executed over 2500 of their own soldiers in 1943?

http://rhapsodyinbooks.wordpress.co...nd-evil-in-world-war-ii”-by-michael-burleigh/

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://rhapsodyinbooks.wordpress.co...nd-evil-in-world-war-ii”-by-michael-burleigh/

You're citing a book review? Good work.

 

[MG1962]

You're citing a book review? Good work.

Well at least he is not following your example and citing his own opinion

 

[uke2se]

Not that Clayton's going to believe it (after all, he seems to only believe what he himself says), but there's a memorial to German deserters in WWII in Ulm. About 15000 German soldiers were executed for desertion during the war. That makes about 2500 executed for desertion per year of war. This number of course doesn't include those executed for other things, such as cowardice.

http://sites-of-memory.de/main/ulmdeserters.html

 

[Wroclaw]

Clayton - I’m curious. If a couple of armed SS wanted to force you out of your home, and pack you onto a train, what would you do?

He gets upset when you ask him this type of question, e.g., my repeated queries on whether he's ever had a gun to his head.

 

[Wroclaw]

We should remember that it was the exception and not the rule that the U.S. (in general —*Slovik an obvious exception) didn't shoot deserters during WWII. Most armies still did this, particularly those under totalitarian governments. The U.S. Army lost nearly 20,000 men to desertion in France alone. Germany had comparable desertion figures, and so they shot the ones they caught. Desertion numbers for the Soviets were massive (hundreds of thousands) and it's estimated that at least 100,000 deserters who were caught were shot immediately, per Stalin and Red Army orders.

So what's the problem if the Nazis executed five figures of their own troops? Why is that unbelievable?

 

[Hans]

May I suggest that you look at the suicide rate among Nazi troops

Clayton where are your number refuting RW?

Are you admitting you cannot counter them and your denial was based on pure 'making stuff up'?

 

[dafydd]

You're citing a book review? Good work.

Better than citing knucklehead Nazi sites,and what is worse,believing them. Why do you hate Jews?

 

[Wroclaw]

Why do you hate Jews?

I find this line of questioning self-defeating, and I wish it would stop. Let's go on the assumption that the best of intentions exist in our opponents, even when they don't, and refute them using methodological approaches. Let's leave ideology on the back burner, I suggest. Doing the above merely comes off as an attempt to stifle debate on the basis that one's opponent is ideologically "beneath" one's self, which may in fact be true, but which is likely to give lurkers the impression that the debate is essentially moral, which it essentially is, but there's no need to appear that way.

Make sense?

 

[Clayton Moore]

So are you denying that Jews were deported from the Reich, including Austria and the Protectorate; from Western Europe; from the General-Gouvernement (e.g., Lodz, Warsaw, Lublin, and other locations large and small); Hungary; Slovakia; Greece; and other parts of Nazi occupied Europe?

We've already seen that, to run 3 death camps, the Nazis had to divert fewer personnel than the number of soldiers they executed in a year for violations of military rules--fewer than 500 German SS, Ukrainians, and ethnic Germans. Auschwitz-Birkenau was run by something like 2000 people--throwing in that total we are still under the number of military executions for 1943. So clearly running the camps where gassings took place wasn't a drain on wartime manpower. So tell us about the deportations of some Jews across Europe and many, many others to the death camp down the road.

Maybe your fellow minions don't see through the double talk but I do. Every time you get caught exaggerating or lying you cast out another exaggeration or lie from the big "get our way at all costs barrel."

Now you're saying

http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Camps/AuschwitzEng.html

was run 24/7 by 2000 people?

In Autumn 1943, the camp administration was reorganized following a corruption scandal. By the end of 1943, the prisoner population of Auschwitz main camp, Birkenau, Monowitz and other sub-camps was over 80,000: 18,437 in the main camp, 49,114 in Birkenau, and 13,288 at Monowitz where I G Farben had its synthetic rubber plant. Up to 50,000 prisoners were scattered around 51 sub-camps such as Rajsko, an experimental agricultural station, and Gleiwitz, a coal mine (see The List of the Camps for a complete list of those sub-camps).

The situation in the sub-camps was often even worse than in the main camps. In mid-1944, Auschwitz was designated a huge SS -run security area in Upper Silesia of over 40 sq. The camp population reached in August 1944 105,168. The last roll-call on January 18th, 1945 showed 64,000 inmates.

During its history, the prison population of Auschwitz changed composition significantly. At first, its inmates were almost entirely Polish. From April 1940 to March 1942, on about 27,000 inmates, 30 percent were Poles and 57 percent were Jews. From March 1942 to March 1943 of 162,000 inmates, 60 percent were Jews.

 

[Gene Alley]

Originally Posted by Mondial
David Cole with Mark Weber on the Montel Williams show

BZZZZZZT! Wrong! David Cole has rescinded everything he said and has since apologized to the jewish community for his antics.

I wonder why? Sword of Truth forgets to mention this little detail. Bear in mind that this group of criminal thugs have bombed, maimed and killed others and threatened their families as a matter of policy for decades. They are the muscle end of the holocaust industry. Here's a sample of their work regarding Cole. Talk about 'Hate Speech'!!

David Cole: Monstrous Traitor
Robert J. Newman


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: The following piece was posted by the Jewish Defense League at: http://www.jdl.org/Traitor_amer.html . This piece probably represents the single worst piece of hate ever posted on the World Wide Web. We have reproduced this piece here to help explain what happened and what was done to David Cole. We denounce this and all other forms of hate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JDL in America

David Cole: Monstrous Traitor
By Robert J. Newman

He has managed to stir the gullible masses with hatred, lies and deception. Just like a low-lying snake that slithers from dark place to dark place, he spreads his venom to innocent victims.

This is David Cole, who takes pride in his demonic occupation: Holocaust denier of the Six Million Jews.

Cole is a young Jewish man with an evil plan: To alter history and to deny documented facts. A revolting and horrible monster is this so-called Jew.

...

Edited to restore another member's proper user name and snipped for compliance with Rule 4. Do not change a member's user name in order to insult, and do not copy and paste lengthy tracts of text available elsewhere. Instead, post a short quote and a link to the source.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Chaos]

Let's go on the assumption that the best of intentions exist in our opponents, even when they don't, and refute them using methodological approaches.

I´m all for giving people the benefit of doubt, but that´s benefit of DOUBT, not benefit of ignoring the freaking obvious. Someone can only lie through their teeth and handwave away evidence against their views for so often until it´s glaringly obvious that they have an agenda, and in this case the point of the whole agenda is crystal clear.

I don´t think anyone here is still harboring any delusions that it´s possible to convince the Nazi fanboys here that the Holocaust happened; we´re mainly talking to the fencesitters here, i.e. the ones with an actual working brain and the will to use it, so that the Nazi fanboys´ filth does not go unopposed here.

 

[Gene Alley]

BZZZZZZT! Wrong!

David Cole has rescinded everything he said and has since apologized to the jewish community for his antics.

The shamelessness, dishonesty and chutzpah of those who are vehemently trying to stifle any debate regarding holocaust revisionism by discrediting, threatening and physically assaulting those who challenge their sacred religion is stunning!! To wit:

http://www.whale.to/b/cole_h.html


On January 22, 1992, revisionist activist David Cole was attacked by JDL thugs at a meeting held at the University of California at Los Angeles. Before the meeting began, JDL leader Rubin first tried to push the youthful Cole down a flight of stairs. JDL hoodlums also harassed and pushed around meeting organizer Robert Morrissey. After the meeting commenced, JDL punks tried to shout down the speakers, and then threw food at Cole. Finally, a JDL thug assaulted Cole -- who is Jewish -- hitting him in the face and bloodying his nose.


David Cole at the 1992 IHR Conference. He was attacked by JDL thugs at a meeting in January 1992 at the University of California at Los Angeles.

The tumult was recorded on videotape by a camera crew of the CBS television news program "48 Hours," as well as by news crews of two local Los Angeles television stations. Neither of the two local stations mentioned a word of the incident in their nightly news broadcasts. Similarly, CBS officials decided not to air even a second of this outburst, not even in a segment about Holocaust revisionism that was part of the CBS television network's hour-long magazine-format program "48 Hours" broadcast of February 26, 1992. Network officials apparently decided that scenes of Zionist hoodlums beating a young Jewish revisionist would not "fit" with the image of revisionism that CBS wanted to project to its many viewers. [1993] The Zionist Terror Network Background and Operation of the Jewish Defense League and other Criminal Zionist GroupsExternal

 

[Nick Terry]

I´m all for giving people the benefit of doubt, but that´s benefit of DOUBT, not benefit of ignoring the freaking obvious. Someone can only lie through their teeth and handwave away evidence against their views for so often until it´s glaringly obvious that they have an agenda, and in this case the point of the whole agenda is crystal clear.

I don´t think anyone here is still harboring any delusions that it´s possible to convince the Nazi fanboys here that the Holocaust happened; we´re mainly talking to the fencesitters here, i.e. the ones with an actual working brain and the will to use it, so that the Nazi fanboys´ filth does not go unopposed here.

Equally glaringly obvious is the fact that none of the Nazi fanbois are ever going to answer the question 'why do you hate Jews?' It's therefore a waste of time asking it. Indeed, it's very nearly a waste of time asking the deniers any questions, because they never, ever answer, no matter how they are expressed or what subject they are on. The only really good reason to ask deniers questions is to expose this obvious mental defect of theirs, and to show that they are incapable of engaging in reasoned dialogue.

This exchange

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
You're citing a book review? Good work.



Better than citing knucklehead Nazi sites,and what is worse,believing them. Why do you hate Jews?

would have been far more effective if it had just read

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
You're citing a book review? Good work.



Better than citing knucklehead Nazi sites,and what is worse,believing them.

The one line response was all that was necessary.

Repeating 'why do you hate Jews?' over and over and over again isn't going anywhere. People should think up other questions or other ways of revealing why they hate Jews, as they so obviously do.

 

[dafydd]

I find this line of questioning self-defeating, and I wish it would stop. Let's go on the assumption that the best of intentions exist in our opponents, even when they don't, and refute them using methodological approaches. Let's leave ideology on the back burner, I suggest. Doing the above merely comes off as an attempt to stifle debate on the basis that one's opponent is ideologically "beneath" one's self, which may in fact be true, but which is likely to give lurkers the impression that the debate is essentially moral, which it essentially is, but there's no need to appear that way.

Make sense?

Not really,If you deny the Holocaust you are a Nazi admirer and therefore a Jew hater. I just want to know why our deniers have this hatred,all they have to do is summon up the guts to answer the question once and I won't ask it again

 

[dafydd]

Equally glaringly obvious is the fact that none of the Nazi fanbois are ever going to answer the question 'why do you hate Jews?' It's therefore a waste of time asking it. Indeed, it's very nearly a waste of time asking the deniers any questions, because they never, ever answer, no matter how they are expressed or what subject they are on. The only really good reason to ask deniers questions is to expose this obvious mental defect of theirs, and to show that they are incapable of engaging in reasoned dialogue.

This exchange



would have been far more effective if it had just read



The one line response was all that was necessary.

Repeating 'why do you hate Jews?' over and over and over again isn't going anywhere. People should think up other questions or other ways of revealing why they hate Jews, as they so obviously do.

But why do you hate them? That's what I'm asking. Answer and I won't bother you again and you can carry on hugging Hitler.

 

[Wroclaw]

Repeating 'why do you hate Jews?' over and over and over again isn't going anywhere. People should think up other questions or other ways of revealing why they hate Jews, as they so obviously do.

Precisely.

Understand, Dafydd and others that the argument isn't about whether they hate Jews. Undoubtedly, the vast majority of these people do, and I'm the first to acknowledge that. Rather, we should seek to demonstrate this rather than just say it. Show, rather than tell. Yes?

 

[dafydd]

I´m all for giving people the benefit of doubt, but that´s benefit of DOUBT, not benefit of ignoring the freaking obvious. Someone can only lie through their teeth and handwave away evidence against their views for so often until it´s glaringly obvious that they have an agenda, and in this case the point of the whole agenda is crystal clear.

I don´t think anyone here is still harboring any delusions that it´s possible to convince the Nazi fanboys here that the Holocaust happened; we´re mainly talking to the fencesitters here, i.e. the ones with an actual working brain and the will to use it, so that the Nazi fanboys´ filth does not go unopposed here.

My uncle saw Belsen,he told me about it. We must show the fencesitters what kind of people these neo Nazis are. They all hate Jews but are too cowardly to say why. Brave Aryan warriors.

 

[dafydd]

Precisely.

Understand, Dafydd and others that the argument isn't about whether they hate Jews. Undoubtedly, the vast majority of these people do, and I'm the first to acknowledge that. Rather, we should seek to demonstrate this rather than just say it. Show, rather than tell. Yes?

You are all doing a good job of demonstrating it but I just want to hear one of them say it,just once. I'll drop it if you think it gets in the way.