Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Nick Terry]

Could be. But it could also suggest that Treblinka had been the worst of the camps that some of the boys had been in. Ultimately though, it's the statement of a director of an orphanage summarizing what several of his charges told him that was written down by a reporter during a conversation and possibly reworked by an editor before ending up in print. It's interesting but not conclusive in any way.

On the contrary, it's conclusive proof that you will seize on any anomaly, no matter how wafer-thin, and will blurt it out in order to cast doubt on history.

 

[Nick Terry]

2 million killed where they lived? Again the Jewish people just hung in there and got themselves killed. Way to go Nick. Way to disrespect Jewish people of the 40s.

What is disrespectful is your utter ignorance of the history. The victims were trapped behind German lines and closed off in ghettos. That was after sizeable percentages had fled, some to safety and some who ended up overrun by the Nazis.

Kiev had 200,000 Jewish inhabitants before the war. When the Nazis arrived in September 1941, there were about 35,000 left. The rest had fled, because they'd heard about Nazi shootings, and because they were evacuated without preference or favour as part of the Soviet evacuation of workforces and industry to the Urals.

More than 1 million Soviet Jews were evacuated or fled out of the area that was to come under Nazi occupation. 2.5 million died in the same region or were deported. That means close to 30% could escape.

Most of the Jews in the Soviet Union lived on the western borders. They didn't have much of a chance to flee anywhere when the Nazis first arrived. Most were then fenced off in ghettos guarded by men with guns. But that didn't stop them trying to escape when they realised what was happening. 25% of the Jews trapped in the Volhynia region in Ukraine tried to escape the shooting actions. They were then hunted down in ones, twos, 10s, and killed. They were lucky - there were at least some forests nearby. Most of Ukraine is steppe, without forests to hide in.

Same pattern in Poland. 300,000 Polish Jews fled east across the Nazi-Soviet border in 1939, before there were really large-scale killings but when they knew that life under the Nazis would be unpleasant. Then the border was closed and they couldn't escape. 10s 1000s more fled inside Nazi occupied territory, 100s of 1000s were expelled. Then ghettos were erected and they were prohibited from moving anywhere. From late 1941, the penalty for being caught outside the ghetto was usually death, from late 1942 it was always death.

But that didn't stop lots of Jews from trying to flee and hide in the forests or go underground in the towns. The catch was, it was very difficult to survive in hiding. Polish Jews knew this, they knew they could not all blend in and keep themselves hidden. How would they all feed themselves? How could an entire ghetto like Warsaw with nearly 400,000 inhabitants hide themselves outside the ghetto? 10s of 1000s did, but expecting 100% to have done this is poppycock.

 

[LemmyCaution]

On the contrary, it's conclusive proof that you will seize on any anomaly, no matter how wafer-thin, and will blurt it out in order to cast doubt on history.

An example of this being the alacrity with which my mention of genital torture at Buchenwald was seized upon as hilarious and against the laws of physics. In fact, the torture described in that case involved suspending a prisoner from a grated door. Sofsky, whom I quoted earlier, describes that both sexual abuse and torture by suspension were relatively common themes in German camps. On the latter, he writes, "Note also the practice of suspending prisoners on stakes or trees, generally at a semipublic location, such as in the yard of the camp prison. The prisoners' hands were tied behind their backs and they were then suspended by them from stakes, tearing sinews and dislocating wrist and arm joints. The punishment lasted up to two hours. Those who survived were generally left permanently crippled or with severe injuries.The prisoners were unable to work for a certain period. For that reason, Himmler banned the practice in 1942 in the course of the campaign for labor deployment." pp 332-333

A few points can be made here: 1) The derisive dismissal of these tortures earlier seen included that they would have cause severe injury; they did. 2) Clayton's misunderstanding of the labor question (in fact, Sofksy's book, 3 chapters in a unit entitled "Work" can be added to the list Nick posted earlier, of books treating labor matters): here both the competing goals and interests of different elements within even the SS emerge, with camp personnel focused on terrorizing prisoners whilst other leaders took a more multifaceted view of things, and with temporal shifts, here as the Reich's military-economic needs loomed larger by 1942-1943, a shift in policy toward preserving potential sources of labor occurred. Note as well that this shift encompassed the Jews who survived the early mass murders, with Jews in the Baltic ghettos and elsewhere put into work-camp regimes for labor on behalf of Germany at this time. 3) There is a clear connection between the suspensions described by Sofksy here and the often-described practice of public execution, often involving roll call on the Appellplatz, in the camps to terrorize prisoners.

 

[LemmyCaution]

But that didn't stop lots of Jews from trying to flee and hide in the forests or go underground in the towns. The catch was, it was very difficult to survive in hiding. Polish Jews knew this, they knew they could not all blend in and keep themselves hidden. How would they all feed themselves? How could an entire ghetto like Warsaw with nearly 400,000 inhabitants hide themselves outside the ghetto? 10s of 1000s did, but expecting 100% to have done this is poppycock.

For anyone who has a real interest in this history, as opposed to those who want to pick and choose decontextualized bits and pieces to deny the history and mock people who suffered under the assault of the Nazis, I recommend a book I've previously mentioned in this thread, Gunnar Paulsson's Secret City: The Hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945 (Yale University Press, 2002). Excellent.

 

[Nick Terry]

And this is from the top of the food chain among the exterminationists here.

In this brilliant historian's view I guess these acts would ot qualify as persecution, only gassings. That's rich!!

Thanks Doc

What I find extremely telling about these "tough guy" loud talking Jewish defenders is that they almost exclusively target scholarly old men and nerdy kids. I am not surprised that these weasly gutless little pukes never target the real Nazi White supremicist groups as they'd get their asses handed to them by these tatooed toothless morons in a heartbeat. LOL

Naturally you and Clayton alike missed the irony in my post. Revisionists fuss over gassings while ignoring virtually everything else about the Holocaust. So you are hypocritical if you handwave and dismiss far more violent examples of the persecution of Jews - as deniers invariably do - and whine about a small number of incidents when your gurus were attacked.

 

[dafydd]

When this letter is taken in context regarding Cole's former writings and interviews followed by physical attacks and continual threats by a group of criminal thugs, it appears to be a document that was written by someone who was blackmailing him to sign it under the threat of death. I'm sure that Mr Cole is not available for comment about anything, ever again.

Signed and notorized.


This letter is so obviously contrived it's ridiculous. It reminds me of several recantation statements by suddeny compromised witnesses before trial in gang cases. They were obviously written by defense council with a space for date and signature. The change of heart usually takes place shortly after some members of the defendant's crew had a little talk with him.;

It only seems fair that Holocaust denying quasi nazis should have Nazi tactics used on them.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Naturally you and Clayton alike missed the irony in my post. Revisionists fuss over gassings while ignoring virtually everything else about the Holocaust. So you are hypocritical if you handwave and dismiss far more violent examples of the persecution of Jews - as deniers invariably do - and whine about a small number of incidents when your gurus were attacked.

7.59 pm Piazza del Popola (or something like that)

One Cardinal down. But the film version sort of missed the significance of the Oculus. Tant pis.

Is Dr Terry seriously implying that raising the issue of non-existing gas chambers is "fussing"? That the question is somehow irrelevant and even if untrue should be asserted as fact because being hung by the willy is definitely true?

Clio weeps.

 

[dafydd]

Here is the spectacle of Gene Alley, who popped in here some time ago posing as a fence sitter and citing good arguments "on both sides," and who has posted exclusively with memes and gambits culled from the sad history of denial, lecturing forum members on the evils of playing loose with facts.

I think that he's fallen of the fence. I can guess which side he landed.

 

[dafydd]

7.59 pm Piazza del Popola (or something like that)

One Cardinal down. But the film version sort of missed the significance of the Oculus. Tant pis.

Is Dr Terry seriously implying that raising the issue of non-existing gas chambers is "fussing"? That the question is somehow irrelevant and even if untrue should be asserted as fact because being hung by the willy is definitely true?

Clio weeps.

Let's call it nitpicking then.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I think that he's fallen of the fence. I can guess which side he landed.

I think he mounted the fence from the side on which he roamed in the first place, trying one of the oldest denier tactics in the books: the "just asking", "not me Mrs Cleaver" antics of Eddie Haskell. Which was clear from the get-go: what was odd was how short-lived was the act, as though he couldn't help himself. . . and lacked the self discipline to carry the gambit through. Strange. It's just the Internet, after all.

 

[Nick Terry]

Is Dr Terry seriously implying that raising the issue of non-existing gas chambers is "fussing"?

No, I wrote

Revisionists fuss over gassings while ignoring virtually everything else about the Holocaust.

I could just as easily have said obsess over, nitpick, or many other variations, the point would stand all the same. Gassings may well be important but the manner in which revisionists approach the topic is not - it is just obsessive fussing and nitpicking.

 

[little grey rabbit]

No, I wrote



I could just as easily have said obsess over, nitpick, or many other variations, the point would stand all the same. Gassings may well be important but the manner in which revisionists approach the topic is not - it is just obsessive fussing and nitpicking.

Not if they are correct. If they are wrong then whether or not it is fussing or nitpicking is beside the point.

Another Cardinal has gone down, when will this slaughter stop?

 

[Nick Terry]

Not if they are correct. If they are wrong then whether or not it is fussing or nitpicking is beside the point.

Revisionists have to fuss and nitpick over gassings precisely because they are wrong. It is an intrinsic characteristic of revisionism to fuss and nitpick. 50+ years of the genre prove this handsomely.

But that is beside the point, which is that revisionists ignore everything else about the Holocaust and cannot present a coherent account of the whole thing. 50+ years of the genre prove this handsomely.

 

[uke2se]

The men like Butz, Farrussion, Zundel, Rudolph, Weber and others are not in the catagory of the former group by any means. These are revisionist historians who dispute historical facts in a peaceful and orderly manner as per the first ammendment of the US Constitution. None of them have been charged with committing any acts of violence against Jews or suggested that others should physically attack Jews or anyone else.

Considering that we have just established that Zundel is indeed a neo-Nazi and white supremacist, I wonder what you think you can gain by lying this obviously.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Naturally you and Clayton alike missed the irony in my post. Revisionists fuss over gassings while ignoring virtually everything else about the Holocaust. So you are hypocritical if you handwave and dismiss far more violent examples of the persecution of Jews - as deniers invariably do - and whine about a small number of incidents when your gurus were attacked.

Wow. Without the nonsense gassing lies there would be no "Holocaust" reverence due. The rest was people of the time settling social problems with aristocrats, a minority ruling class, who were controlling them.

 

[Wroclaw]

Wow. Without the nonsense gassing lies there would be no "Holocaust" reverence due. The rest was people of the time settling social problems with aristocrats, a minority ruling class, who were controlling them.

So these are aristocrats? A ruling class?

 

[dafydd]

Wow. Without the nonsense gassing lies there would be no "Holocaust" reverence due. The rest was people of the time settling social problems with aristocrats, a minority ruling class, who were controlling them.

Have you heard of these things called history books? Have you heard of things called books?

 

[Dogzilla]

The fact that Kahane was a member of the Knesset speaks volumes about their government. That would be comparable to having Tom Metzger serve as a US Senator. However Israel has a long history of electing terrorist murderers to high government positions. I'm sure that criminal terrorist organizations like JDL have a large base of support in Israel.

Kahane had some support among extremists but he was never even close to mainstream. His limited success is in the Knesset is about as meaningful as David Duke's limited success in the US Congress.

Even Alan Dershowitz (about as obnoxious a liar you'll find when it comes to defending Israel and the holocaust) publicly debated Kahane back in the 1980s because he thought Kahane views were warped and dangerous. Some of these debates have been uploaded on Youtube and are worth watching if only to see the Jewfro Dershowitz was sporting back in the day.

 

[Dogzilla]

On the contrary, it's conclusive proof that you will seize on any anomaly, no matter how wafer-thin, and will blurt it out in order to cast doubt on history.

No, I said the mention of Treblinka was interesting but not conclusive. I thought it was also interesting that the director said that the Jewish children didn't have much gratitude and were highly critical of the clothes and food they were given once they reached England. They were also angry at the British because they weren't allowed to go to Palestine. Interesting, but not conclusive.

It demonstrates that there was at least one reference in print to Treblinka possibly being a transit camp. The important words here are "one" and "possibly." It in no way proves that Treblinka was a transit camp and I did not suggest that it did. I even said why it didn't.

If you believe this tidbit is an attempt to cast doubt on history, it must be more important in your mind than it is in mine.

 

[Dogzilla]

Naturally you and Clayton alike missed the irony in my post. Revisionists fuss over gassings while ignoring virtually everything else about the Holocaust. So you are hypocritical if you handwave and dismiss far more violent examples of the persecution of Jews - as deniers invariably do - and whine about a small number of incidents when your gurus were attacked.

"Fuss" over gassings while ignoring virtually everything else about the holocaust? Because there's substantial evidence for virtually everything about the holocaust except the gassings, we should just accept that the gassings are true?