Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[DeathDart]

The Israeli's have unofficial groups everywhere, day job Israeli intelligence, night job: industrial espionage or smuggling, sometimes for Israeli Intelligence. Yes, even the Muslim countries, who would know the best way to get around an American Embargo?

A few Israeli's know more than enough to stop it, some of them may have legitimately warned us.

Your country right or wrong.

How many times have you heard that as being the only course for a patriot.
My Lai, Iraq WMD's, warrantless wiretapping, Patriots don't have a problem with minutiae like that.

And what about the Israeli Patriots? Liberal democrats believe in equality between the Jews and the Animal Palestinians. American right-wing Republicans understand that you can only have peace, after you kick their &ss into submission.

Shaken,not stirred.

One part Pakistani ISI
One part Israeli Patriots
One part Saudi Arabian money,
and of course Osama Bin Laden

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Thing is... we bash each other on our political ideologies all the time. What we perceive of people doesn't make them criminal, it's their actions. There are ton of sex scandals in our politicians' career's; do the courts suddenly charge them for attempted murder just because "they seem like the type that would try"?

Apparently the TM must think so, they've been at it for ten years,

 

[Grizzly Bear]

How many times have you heard that as being the only course for a patriot. My Lai, Iraq WMD's, warrantless wiretapping, Patriots don't have a problem with minutiae like that.

You charge them for what you can legitimately prove they committed. Not for something you think "they would do because they lied at other things." Politicians can be truly rotten, that doesn't make them all criminals by default.

 

[DeathDart]

NIST did the modeling. If you doubt the modelling, you need to show imperially that it's wrong. Calling them government paid shills is not proving them "wrong" it's poisoning the well. That's not skepticism, it's utter paranoia. It's not methodical, it's absolutely sloppy.


Visual evidence + witness + careful study of Material properties/construction + modelling + physical evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt a combination of impact and fire.

AE911's "methodical" approach:
first in history = not possible
pyroclastic flows
"cold massive steel"
Compare the WTC to some random street building even if it's a porn strip built of legos.

You want to suggest otherwise? Show that NIST's errors are as grotesque as you claim, and show competent research that demonstrates it. Calling Bush an illegitimate president, Rudy rotten, NIST part of a government cohort, or you peers shills isn't just "not enough," it's nothing at all.

Who to believe? The organization that actually spent 4 to 6 years doing the models and studies? Or the rag tag group of professionals who think you can slap two cardboard boxes together and call it a model to a full scale building? That's tough question!


Do as you demand from us; don't speculate, show the proof. You can argue anything you want, but for it to be a proven reality you need to show imperial proof that:
A) NIST's engineering report is grotesquely inaccurate, and where
B) That said errors are made knowingly
C) That you have evidence of an alternative culprit

Anything before that is speculation.


Show us where they covered up. Show us NIST's grotesquely misused engineering calcs and statements. Show that Rudy was even involved in the first place... You demand proof but aren't willing do it for your own arguments. You make a claim, it's your burden to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.


Is your probable cause something other than that you think they're utter slime balls? That's old news... but has nothing to do with direct complicity in mass murder.

Where is the Steel?
How many samples show affects from more than 600C ?

What is the catalog number for those samples?

It is a simple question, with a simple answer.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

It is a simple question, with a simple answer.

NIST modeling showed that large portions of the impact floors were exposed to sustained temperatures of greater than 600oC. Answer first; do you have a problem with their modeling techniques? Did you comprehend criteria for the samples collected?

Give me a credible reason to doubt the model work, then we'll work on the criteria for physical samples. If you can't demonstrate at least a basic capacity to read and understand an engineering report, your issues with the samples are a moot point.

Or does you're unwillingness to tackle such a question have something to do with your poisoning the well not convincing people?

 

[DeathDart]

You charge them for what you can legitimately prove they committed. Not for something you think "they would do because they lied at other things." Politicians can be truly rotten, that doesn't make them all criminals by default.

We are trying to sort out the criminals from any possible traitors.

We also needed to understand the problems in attempting to educate the public.

What would the truth do?

The lack of steel samples is an obvious flaw, logically you can not defend it.

You did.

 

[DeathDart]

When they went to Pakistan to kill Osama Bin Laden,
they did not tell Pakistan,
and they did not tell.........

It succeeded.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

We are trying to sort out the criminals from any possible traitors.

By trying them for murder because they lied about something completely independent of thing you're accusing them of. Are you suggesting that lying about sex scandals implicitely makes someone a murderer?

The lack of steel samples is an obvious flaw, logically you can not defend it.

NIST looked for samples specifically located on the fire floors. They determined the locations based on as-built markings. If they had markings, they knew without a doubt where the sample was pre-collapse. If it didn't have intact markings, then the as-built location isn't known; they don't use it.

If you want samples that are from the impact regions you get the ones you can ID, you don't search a 10 story pile for random samples and gamble.

They made that very clear. They set a criteria, and they went with it for the greatest accuracy they could get from it. They modeled the rest.

You didn't read the report, and on top of that you can't tell me what's wrong with the models because you don't even know what they did. Why should I care about your concerns if your criticisms arise from a report you didn't even spend the time to read or give thought to?

 

[DeathDart]

Look at the picture of the situation room during the Osama Bin Laden raid. That picture is of a room full of Americans, some of whom also happen to be Jewish.

America First

 

[Oystein]

...
Challenges along the lines of "Prove to me that [XXXXX]" are rarely worthwhile, as we see from all the ones currently running; they involve a postulate of impartiality that's never valid.

The current one is no exception. NF reserves the right to be a party to the contest as well the referee! And already his tone against me is as bad as any thruther's who's ever posed a challenge like this.

However, it is a good point that WTC1/2 explosive CD theories require explosives to have been placed in the part of the buildings that were impacted by airliners and then burned for a significant period,

Why, exactly? Is there any particular CD theory that you can point to that has this requirement? I bet no.

and also require those explosives to have survived that treatment in a fit condition to operate correctly.

That's an assumption. Assumptions are not proof! [/NF]

It's pretty much an appeal to magic, because it postulates explosive devices of an unknown type, with unknown properties, that are specifically different to those of all known explosives.

It's a call to fill in the blanks. The point is: There exists no theory of CD that tells us anything at all about the nature, amount and placement of any devices. That's the main reason why there is nothing to be proven or disproven.

So it's worth noting that the burden of proof is still firmly in the conspiracist camp.

Absolutely. And before proof, we need a theory.

Personally I wouldn't demand proof with a reward. I'd simply ask to see a plausible existence theorem, from anyone proposing a CD theory, for any device that could exhibit the properties required for whatever hypothesis they're advancing, however tenuous. None has so far been offered.

Exactly. There is no hypothesis yet to be proven, but NF asks for us to prove one aspect of a non-existing hypothesis. As the hypothesis he wants proven does not exist, it is clear that we MUST make assumptions about it. I wish someone else here had the guts to explain this to NF, for he won't listen to me any longer.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7412273&postcount=9390

Wow. The mention of Dr. Sobrosky certainly shut the swarm up.

 

[Oystein]

For all your prickish patting yourself on the back, you still haven't proven it, kiddo.

Assumptions backed up by evidence.... What language do you want that in?

You are dumb and unwilling to learn.

lol
"breach of contract" -- well better than what I consider you at this point, :

You offered to donate 1000 bucks if anyone can prove that exposives can survive plane impact (checked - just place them outside of plane path) and fires (checked - just place them in heat-retardant boxes, such as money saves).

To remind you - here is what you offered in the OP:

So here it is. I have $1,000 to donate to your favorite twoofer and mine - Richard Gage.

All you have to do is PROVE explosives can survive the impact of the aircraft and subsequent fire. Assumptions are not proof. Secret government documents aren't proof. Proof is proof. What was the device used to house these explosives that can survive?

• Survive the impact of the aircraft: That is rather trivial. We know that people survived the impact without major harm, so explosives protected by a hard case would, too, if not in the flight path
• Survive subsequent fire: RDX, a high explosive that is often used in CDs, melts at 204°C, but starts to decompose at 170°C. So we need to keep RDX below 170°C for one hour in the midst of an office fire, right? Take this line of commercially available safes for your home: http://www.firesafestore.com/homesafes-sentry2.htm "These Sentry home safes come with a UL 2 Hour Rating. ... Product is subjected to temperatures of 1850° F (1010° C) for 2 hours. The interior remains below 350° F (177° C) to protect documents.". So this safe will keep our RDX below 170°C for well over an hour.
• And that's all I have to do to meet your challenge!

See now how stupid the OP is? It contains no other provisions or restrictions that I need to apply.

 

[Oystein]

It's become painfully apparent that despite the efforts of a few massively intelligent dolts, it can't be proven that explosives can survive the events of 9/11 in such a manner that they'd be a useful tool in taking down the towers. As expected, my money is quite safe.

Mods can close this thread now should they so choose. From here on out it'll just be another name for the general discussion thread......

Buddy, that hilighted assumption does not appear in the offer for contract that is the OP. You moved the goal post!

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Look at the picture of the situation room during the Osama Bin Laden raid. That picture is of a room full of Americans, some of whom also happen to be Jewish.

America First

I'm still trying to figure out how your hatred for politicians and Israel apparently proves complicity in murder on the part of the NIST report. Maybe once you finish trying to swing to new topics you can enlighten readers.

 

[Craig4]

Shaken,not stirred.

One part Pakistani ISI
One part Israeli Intelligence (doesn't have to be the Mossad, Israel has several intelligence groups)
One part Saudi Arabian money, and of course Osama Bin Laden

ISI and the Saudis are going to do a fund raiser (fund raiser as in The Long Kiss Goodnight).

Can you put any officers or agents of the intelligence services mentioned above at the WTC with explosives?

 

[Craig4]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7412273&postcount=9390

Wow. The mention of Dr. Sobrosky certainly shut the swarm up.

No, I was just waiting for a response to the question, can you place any officers or agents of Israel at the WTC planting explosives?

 

[tsig]

Where is the Steel?
How many samples show affects from more than 600C ?

What is the catalog number for those samples?

It is a simple question, with a simple answer.

Does the world always jump too when you make demands?

This post looks like the cries from a baby.

 

[alphahelix]

Where is the Steel?
How many samples show affects from more than 600C ?

What is the catalog number for those samples?

It is a simple question, with a simple answer.

The simple answer is, there are pictures of steel all across this forum, using the search function and "researching" the forum before using capslock and large fonts to JAQ off, and rehash things that have been discussed to absolute death. Might get you a much more productive conversation and you might come across the explanations of the pictures with links and section numbers of the reports you say are fundamentally wrong which would be a much better starting point for "proving" something than name calling and paranoia.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Look at the picture of the situation room during the Osama Bin Laden raid. That picture is of a room full of Americans, some of whom also happen to be Jewish.

America First

Vot der Dumbdoodle does this have to do with the steel?

 

[Craig4]

Vot der Dumbdoodle does this have to do with the steel?

It's standard trutherism. When encountered with adverse facts you blame the Jews.