How can Dawkins redeem himself?

[Skeptic Ginger]

I've experienced racism in France. It was just what I thought it was before I experienced it directly. Does my experience count?

 

[slingblade]

That's not true at all. I'm a white woman, and I have first-hand knowledge of it. Both when from when it benefits me and from when it negatively impacts me.

I was unclear, I think. I mean I'll never have knowledge of what it means to be black (or anyone else but white) and experience that. Because I'm white. I can and do have empathy for it, and I can understand racism in general, though. I'm just never going to live every day as a black person and feel what they feel.

 

[tesscaline]

I was unclear, I think. I mean I'll never have knowledge of what it means to be black (or anyone else but white) and experience that. Because I'm white. I can and do have empathy for it, and I can understand racism in general, though. I'm just never going to live every day as a black person and feel what they feel.

Maybe not. But that's not necessary to be able to speak about the facts regarding racism.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Maybe not. But that's not necessary to be able to speak about the facts regarding racism.

I'm not sure where the line of reasoning that 'you can't comment, you don't know, you're not a woman' would leave us anyway. Presumably RW had no right to comment on EG, or men in general as she's not a man and will never understand?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not sure where the line of reasoning that 'you can't comment, you don't know, you're not a woman' would leave us anyway. Presumably RW had no right to comment on EG, or men in general as she's not a man and will never understand?

Touche'


I've been thinking the same thing, why are so few people questioning RW's assessment of EG's intentions. To me it's a problem that RW is claiming to absolutely know what EG had in mind.

 

[Pardalis]

I've experienced racism in France.

Touche'

Maybe they resented the fact that you can't type French accents?

 

[slingblade]

Maybe not. But that's not necessary to be able to speak about the facts regarding racism.

I don't think I said...I don't know what I said. I just didn't say it right. Sorry.

 

[tesscaline]

I don't think I said...I don't know what I said. I just didn't say it right. Sorry.

No problem These threads are so all over the place that I'm having a hard time remembering which is which, let alone what I posted where, and what I was trying to say when I said it. lol.

Regardless of your post, I've gotten the feeling from a lot of the posts in the threads on this incident that there's a lot of "it hasn't happened to you, so you can't possibly have a valid observation to make" going around. I just wanted to point out (for everyone, not necessarily for you in particular), that personal experience does not necessarily make someone an expert, and the amount of weight you give someone's argument shouldn't just be based upon that personal experience. It should be based on the actual validity of the argument/claim/statement they are putting forth.

For example: Saying that RD can't possibly comment on what happened to RW because "he's a rich, white, man" is fallacious. Saying that his words suddenly have more weight because he's been molested is equally fallacious.
We need to judge what was said, not who said it, or why they might have said it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Maybe they resented the fact that you can't type French accents?

Actually, not speaking French is what resulted in the reaction to us.

 

[MikeSun5]

Well thanks for admitting that you think it's OK to try to screw any women you see.

First off, that's not what you asked...

Second, it's perfectly OK to "try and screw any women you see." That's not against the law. Down in South Miami Beach, it's a common practice. Another common practice in South Beach is women turning down guys who are trying to screw them. I've seen it done many, many times, and it doesn't usually require mace.

You seem to be convoluting "raping" with "chatting up."

Rebbeca...?

Apparently women in MikeSuns' vicinity had better carry Mace.

And in your vicinity a water tanker to extinguish your straw-men should they catch afire.

Thanks, Al. Not sure what tsig was trying to prove there...

Actually, not speaking French is what resulted in the reaction to us.

My (American) family was once turned away from a visibly half-empty restaurant in northern France after being told they had no room for us. As we left, a few of the patrons actually broke into applause. Everyone involved was white, but it was still crazy. [/derail]

 

[RandFan]

Now that we've talked the elevator issue to death, I'm curious about the opinions of those who are angry with Richard Dawkins. What can he do to "redeem himself", in your mind, if anything?

To the extent that he made a mistake, and I think he did (false consolation fallacy). I don't think there is anything to do except to perhaps have a discussion with Rebecca. If people are hung up on this single incident then they are shallow. He had a point (perspective). He just made it very, very badly.

People should however feel free to criticize and share their opinion. And yes, they have every right to boycott and bear a grudge.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

My (American) family was once turned away from a visibly half-empty restaurant in northern France after being told they had no room for us. As we left, a few of the patrons actually broke into applause. Everyone involved was white, but it was still crazy. [/derail]

My experience was much milder, very few people would help us and were openly annoyed by our communication skills. So why were you booted from the restaurant?

 

[slingblade]

Actually, not speaking French is what resulted in the reaction to us.

I don't understand. You couldn't speak French, and you received a bad reaction from French nationals, right? How is that racism? "French" isn't a race. It's a Nationality. What did I miss, because I'm sure I missed something. Was there a part--wait, how do you self-identify? I may be assuming something I ought not assume.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't understand. You couldn't speak French, and you received a bad reaction from French nationals, right? How is that racism? "French" isn't a race. It's a Nationality. What did I miss, because I'm sure I missed something. Was there a part--wait, how do you self-identify? I may be assuming something I ought not assume.

I was speaking of the French in France. Did I imply someplace or something else? If so, I'm sorry for the misconception.

I've traveled in many non-English speaking countries, and I've met many not so fluent English speakers in my own country. I was never treated with disdain and I've not met people who were treated with disdain here because their English was not so great. (There are some exceptions with people unhappy with Spanish speaking immigrants, but that's a separate issue. This is about tourists and other travelers.)

In France, the reception we got differed. If you want to quibble it differed from racial discrimination, be my guest. But technically, race is ethnic, not truly genetic.

 

[slingblade]

I was speaking of the French in France. Did I imply someplace or something else? If so, I'm sorry for the misconception.

No, I didn't misunderstand after all, then. I thought that's what you were saying.

I've traveled in many non-English speaking countries, and I've met many not so fluent English speakers in my own country. I was never treated with disdain and I've not met people who were treated with disdain here because their English was not so great. (There are some exceptions with people unhappy with Spanish speaking immigrants, but that's a separate issue. This is about tourists and other travelers.)

Oh, but I have. I've seen it, first-hand. As a waitress in the Colorado mountains, for one example. My fellow servers often became irritated with tourists who spoke poor English: "Why do they even come here if they can't speak the language? I don't have time to translate the whole damned menu for them!"

In France, the reception we got differed. If you want to quibble it differed from racial discrimination, be my guest. But technically, race is ethnic, not truly genetic.

I know what race is. It's a social construct, not biological. And yes, I still want to quibble that what you experienced was racism, per se. Bigotry, discrimination, sure. But I can't call it racism. You can, though. They're you're feelings, not mine.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I was speaking of the French in France. Did I imply someplace or something else? If so, I'm sorry for the misconception.

I've traveled in many non-English speaking countries, and I've met many not so fluent English speakers in my own country. I was never treated with disdain and I've not met people who were treated with disdain here because their English was not so great. (There are some exceptions with people unhappy with Spanish speaking immigrants, but that's a separate issue. This is about tourists and other travelers.)

In France, the reception we got differed. If you want to quibble it differed from racial discrimination, be my guest. But technically, race is ethnic, not truly genetic.

The French are well-known for this. Not only do they look down on people who don't speak French, they expect you to speak good French before they will deign to understand you. This is OF COURSE a gross generalization, and French people differ like all other people, but there is a strong tendency, both in the general public and officially, to somehow consider France the apex of humanity. I don't know the reason for this, but a couple of centuries ago, France was in fact the leading culture in Europe, so they may be just clinging to that.

Actually, the Brits have a little of it, too, but they're so lucky that half the world speak English.

I would not call it racism, I would call it chauvinism. In its original form, even.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Mmm, how did we get to here from Dawkins?

/Hans

 

[Morrigan]

He said that other men force women to be mutilated so Rebbecca shouldn't complain about being hit on by a man.

That's kind of a distortion, actually. His later posts clarified his meaning.

Do you think that men have the right to hit on women whenever and wherever they want?

Pretty much, and women have the right to think they're jackasses (in this context I think elevator guy kinda was, I've made my opinion pretty clear about this), but that's not really what Dawkins said anyway.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Dawkin's redeemed by Depleted Cranium on the Bad Science Blog:

(Sorry if it's been posted, and for my posting it in two threads, but it needs to be seen.)

This is why I'm so irate at SGU for backing her up on this. If we examine the scenario in terms of rationality and statistics and those "fact" things, the whole deal is a puff of cotton candy smoke

 

[Ocelot]

Bit of a derail this racism thing but " in British law the phrase racial group means "any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism