How can Dawkins redeem himself?

technoextreme said:
For crying out loud that is still insulting and has the level of intellectual jackassery that he desplayed to Rebecca. Also, I'm pretty sure he has no idea what growing up Roman Catholic ever entailed.
Click to expand...

Please do carry on and feel free to back up your statements.

On the matter of hyperbole. Shall I take it that you've conceded that you exagerated when you move the goal posts to a "level of intellectual jackassery"

On the matter of "intellectual jackassery" can you please explain what you mean preferabley citing examples.

On the matter of Dawkins having no idea about growing up Roman Catholic, isn't that a non sequitur given that he's citing someone else's documented experience. Furthermore are we to diminish all knowledge but first hand experience as no idea at all.
 
Ocelot said:
On the matter of Dawkins having no idea about growing up Roman Catholic, isn't that a non sequitur given that he's citing someone else's documented experience. Furthermore are we to diminish all knowledge but first hand experience as no idea at all.
Click to expand...
Yeah you don't know much about logic do you.
 
Last edited:
Last of the Fraggles said:
So what exactly was it (in your view) that RD was attacking RW on that she knows more about and always will?

As for your last comment, I'd say the same if RW was a guy so I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Click to expand...

Do I seriously need to answer this?

Rebecca Watson has the experience of being a woman.... also the experience of being a woman put into vulnerable situations because of the way some men behave toward women. She has the experience of being treated unequally merely because she is a woman. She has had the experience of people not taking her seriously BECAUSE she is a woman. She also has the experience of her own emotions which Dawkins isn't party to. She also had the experience of being in a particular elevator at a certain time and place....

Also, if you disagree with the second part...I envy you. You live in a world where every woman's opinions and actions are respected and valued as much as a man's. Let me know where this place is, my wife would like to visit.

I must say, this is beginning to feel like a Turning Test...

ETA: Put yourself in her shoes... you're enclosed in an elevator at 4am... a hitherto unknown 6'5" 240lb man accosts you, looks lovingly into your eyes and says, "Hey, buddy, how's about coming up to my room and sharing something to drink?"

In what way is this a socially reasonable request? Again, throwing out a harmless "heads-up" on creepy behavior should be to everyone's benefit, no?
 
Last edited:
epepke said:
That's fairly presumptuous of you, and it sounds a lot like dismissiveness to me.
Click to expand...

Yes. That was the point, by way of example. I've every right to take anything you say, turn or twist it into the way I choose to see it, and throw it right back at you as if it's yours. Pretty much the way you're doing with Rebecca.

No, it's not fun. Stop attacking Rebecca the person, and try to focus on the issue she raised.
 
NoScotsman said:
Do I seriously need to answer this?

Rebecca Watson has the experience of being a woman.... also the experience of being a woman put into vulnerable situations because of the way some men behave toward women. She has the experience of being treated unequally merely because she is a woman. She has had the experience of people not taking her seriously BECAUSE she is a woman. She also has the experience of her own emotions which Dawkins isn't party to. She also had the experience of being in a particular elevator at a certain time and place....
Click to expand...

And RD was attacking her on this? Or on her over-reaction to a minor incident in an elevator?


Also, if you disagree with the second part...I envy you. You live in a world where every woman's opinions and actions are respected and valued as much as a man's. Let me know where this place is, my wife would like to visit.

I must say, this is beginning to feel like a Turning Test...
Click to expand...

Well I disagreed with your statement if it was directed at me. And again you have generalised from one minor occurence in an elevator to an entire gender's life experience.

If you or RW or anyone else want to complain about sexism and objectivisation and sexualisation and not being treated equally and all of those things then the elevator incident is a very very poor example. If its the best RW or you have got (and I'm not saying it is) then there isn't much of a debate to be had.

ETA: Put yourself in her shoes... you're enclosed in an elevator at 4am... a hitherto unknown 6'5" 240lb man accosts you, looks lovingly into your eyes and says, "Hey, buddy, how's about coming up to my room and sharing something to drink?"

In what way is this a socially reasonable request? Again, throwing out a harmless "heads-up" on creepy behavior should be to everyone's benefit, no?
Click to expand...

'Accosts'? Where was anybody accosted?

EG is now six five and 240 lbs?

He looked lovingly into her eyes?

All of these embellishments were not part of the original situation but in any case if it happened, I would say 'No thanks' and if the guy said 'Oh OK. Goodnight then' I'd think 'Well that was a bit odd. Still, no harm no foul' Then I'd go to bed.

The idea of making a video about it when I got home to tell the world about how homosexuals keep sexualising me and they should stop doing it would be furthest from my mind.

And of course, the thing is had I made a video about the incident complaining about a gay guy propositioning me in an elevator I'd have been branded a homophobe for telling gay guys how to behave.
 
slingblade said:
Yes. That was the point, by way of example. I've every right to take anything you say, turn or twist it into the way I choose to see it, and throw it right back at you as if it's yours. Pretty much the way you're doing with Rebecca.

No, it's not fun. Stop attacking Rebecca the person, and try to focus on the issue she raised.
Click to expand...

I'm not attacking Rebecca the person; I'm criticizing Rebecca Watson the public persona.

And why should I stop? Nobody asks me to stop criticizing Richard Dawkins the public persona, at least with no serious belief that I would, and I do that rather a lot. Nobody asks me to stop criticizing various creotards and homeopathologicals.

What is it about Rebecca Watson that is so special that she alone merits a pass? This is a serious question.
 
NoScotsman said:
Do I seriously need to answer this?

Rebecca Watson has the experience of being a woman.... also the experience of being a woman put into vulnerable situations because of the way some men behave toward women. She has the experience of being treated unequally merely because she is a woman. She has had the experience of people not taking her seriously BECAUSE she is a woman. She also has the experience of her own emotions which Dawkins isn't party to. She also had the experience of being in a particular elevator at a certain time and place...
Click to expand...

So, basically, it's because she is a woman. What about Sylvia Brown? I think she's a woman, too, or at least I have no less evidence that Sylvia Brown is a woman. Maybe, as a woman, Sylvia Brown has special womanly emotions that we just Have To Respect™, emotions that say to her that she's psychic.
 
NoScotsman said:
....
For some reason, Richard Dawkins criticized Rebecca Watson on the one subject for which she would forever be more knowledgeable than he. Not a wise decision.
Click to expand...
So only a woman can understand whatever it is RW is on about? And you call yourself, NoScotsman? ;)
 
NoScotsman said:
I don't find Rebecca Watson self-important in the least. She is very open about her non-scientific background ... very self effacing when she makes mistakes ... and very quick to give others credit (or to share it).

And sure, her passion, interest, and activity in the skeptical movement may be regarded as self-promoting. But even then, I ask myself: "Why are qualities that are nearly always admired in men, frowned upon the moment they are witnessed in women."
Click to expand...
As an assertive female that has had to confront this issus most of my life, I think I'm qualified to say that is not what is happening here.

People may or may not be judging RW falsely based on how they perceive her position here, but the self-promoting charge is not about behavior that would be any less self promoting were it a male in the same position.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
So only a woman can understand whatever it is RW is on about? And you call yourself, NoScotsman? ;)
Click to expand...

SG, you know as well as anyone else that what you just did there was straw.

NoScotsman's word was "knowledgeable," not "understand." "Understand" is your straw exchange.

Others have compared this to another "ism," so I'll use it as my analogy.

I can certainly understand the effects of racism, but as a white woman, I'll never have first-hand knowledge of it.

Don't let your arguments stoop to that, SG. You're a better logician than that.
 
Morrigan said:
B-but he posted an insensitive comment on a blog! Let's lynch him!
Click to expand...

He said that other men force women to be mutilated so Rebbecca shouldn't complain about being hit on by a man. Do you think that men have the right to hit on women whenever and wherever they want?
 
a_unique_person said:
Just so I don't have to read 100's of pages, just what did Dawkins do that was controversial in this case?
Click to expand...

He said that Rebecca shouldn't complain about being hit on in an elevator because Muslim women have their genital mutilated.
 
tsig said:
Do you think that men have the right to hit on women whenever and wherever they want?
Click to expand...

How do you think the human race has been able to procreated so far? They've been sending polite requests over the mail?

Some guys are more clumsy than others.

I really don't see what the big deal is, and I'm amazed that you guys have found a name for this unimportant story. "Elevatorgate", geezus. :rolleyes:
 
Pardalis said:
How do you think the human race has been able to procreated so far? They've been sending polite requests over the mail?

Some guys are more clumsy than others.

I really don't see what the big deal is, and I'm amazed that you guys have found a name for this unimportant story. "Elevatorgate", geezus. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


You response tells me you feel it's your right to ask any women you meet to have your children.
 
tsig said:
You response tells me you feel it's your right to ask any women you meet to have your children.
Click to expand...
Well, after that 4 am coffee in your room, maybe.

If you're a Brad Pitt lookalike, you better be as rich as he is to handle all those paternity suits and childcare payments.

If you're a Quasimodo looklike, it never hurts to try, huh?

For most, whatever floats your boat. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom