Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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It was the Group W bench you old man.

Memory failing you as well?

yes, wait, what?

I thought "B" sounded wrong but I would have had to find my record(if I still have it) haul out my Hi-Fi turntable, amp and speakers and set it up.
Thanks for the correction.

Now, just to bring this back on topic would anyone have aphoto relating to 9/11/01 with circles and arrows and a description of what each one signifies?

that or a recording of Larry Silverstein yelling, "Kill, Kill, kill"
 
But the shoe might fit!:D

Shoe, Foot, tentacle phobic humans!

My really bad, got this mixed up with the missing plane story. Yes 4 passenger planes, no substitutions, no missiles.

Lack of (or delaying information) to feed the idiots, intentional tactic of W's information trolls (goblins?), mine, mine, mine.
 
Could you please restate that in actual sentences? Subjects, predicates, all that good stuff.
 
Shoe, Foot, tentacle phobic humans!

My really bad, got this mixed up with the missing plane story. Yes 4 passenger planes, no substitutions, no missiles.

Lack of (or delaying information) to feed the idiots, intentional tactic of W's information trolls (goblins?), mine, mine, mine.

Don't type angry!
 
Each plane impact created two paths of airplane component dispersal.
Kinetic or explosion driven components will exit the building immediately.
Components that are captured by the building are distributed in the building debris field.

The kinetic dispersal is seen in the photographs.
The large piece of fuselage is resting on top of steel beams. The fuselage has a relatively low density and is likely to “flutter” on the way down. The beams pretty much ignore air resistance, until they approach terminal velocity. The picture is self consistent. The beams under the fuselage probably came from the impact area. This assumes that the fuselage was kinetically ejected and did not move once it hit the ground.
 
GRRrrrrrrrrr what was I saying, oh yeah.

The plane material captured by the building will tend to follow the debris flow of the building components that it is embedded in. Each floors components will TEND to end up at different radius' from the footprint of the building. Different floor materials will have statistically significant possibilities of being distributed in a roughly predictable pattern.

I am going to guess that as the amount of debris material (that is suspended) increases, that this distribution band becomes wider. Higher floors are more predictable than lower floors. Just a guess. Might have that backwards.

From the Sand and Air Gedankenexperiment the upper floors are at the apex of what will become a cone shape. Assuming that they move toward the edge in sequence, the top most moving toward the edge first, we can make same general observations.

Flight 11 hit higher up. The embedded components of it will TEND to be in a band centered at a PARTICULAR radius from the buildings footprint. This will not be a circle! Faster debris flow on any side of the building will place the components closer, Slower debris flow will place it farther away. There will be lots of exceptions and special cases. But the predictions would be useful if you are looking for something.

If you are at a point and you can see several airplane components closer and a few farther from your position then you probably in the band containing the floors with the airplane components embedded. If you circle the building at roughly this same radius you may skirt either the inner or outer part of the band.

The debris field is a little less chaotic now.
 
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The “Truther” explanation for the flight recorders actually corroborates the official version. The “Truther's” have the FBI appear, find 3 of them, and disappear. The official version has all the material fingertip checked, but doesn't even find one beat-to-death housing!

IF every piece of metal was at least looked at, is a TRUE statement, then they do not contradict each other at a basic level, at a policy level it is quite different.

It would not be improbable that 1 of the 4 recorders was pounded beyond recognition.

Officially nothing was ever found of the recorders at WTC. This IS improbable. This can be rationally solved by allowing FBI “detention” of 3 of them and the 4th being pounded beyond recognition.

The probable debris field seems to be some distance from the building footprint (Just a guess). Debris depth might make them accessible. If the recorders were emitting a signal or sound that might make them easier to track.
 
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Another question to ask, were any embedded plane components found? And how big were they, and where were they found?

The pictures appear to show kinetically distributed plane components.

This would either verify or disprove the fingertip checking account. No, or very few, embedded components, no fingertip checking.
 
DD, I don't think your...extemporaneous writing style is helping you communicate effectively.

The “Truther” explanation for the flight recorders actually corroborates the official version. The “Truther's” have the FBI appear, find 3 of them, and disappear. The official version has all the material fingertip checked, but doesn't even find one beat-to-death housing!
So you think finding a handful of boxes stressed far beyond their tolerances in a recognizable state somewhere in tons of debris is less likely than finding the hundreds of thermite/demo charges required, at minimum, to topple even one tower?

IF every piece of metal was at least looked at,
As claimed by who?

is a TRUE statement, then they do not contradict each other at a basic level, at a policy level it is quite different.

It would not be improbable that 1 of the 4 recorders was pounded beyond recognition.
Following you so far.

Officially nothing was ever found of the recorders at WTC. This IS improbable.
And off the rails. The likelihood of finding one recorder is vanishingly slim. The odds of finding any of the four of them is slightly less vanishingly slim.

This can be rationally solved by allowing FBI “detention” of 3 of them and the 4th being pounded beyond recognition.
That's not reason, that's speculation.

The probable debris field seems to be some distance from the building footprint (Just a guess). Debris depth might make them accessible. If the recorders were emitting a signal or sound that might make them easier to track.
Which is unlikely, seeing as they were likely pounded beyond recognition or function, as you already said was probable.

Another question to ask, were any embedded plane components found? And how big were they, and where were they found?

The pictures appear to show kinetically distributed plane components.

This would either verify or disprove the fingertip checking account. No, or very few, embedded components, no fingertip checking.
Embedded in what, pray tell?
 
The plane material captured by the building will tend to follow the debris flow of the building components that it is embedded in. Each floors components will TEND to end up at different radius' from the footprint of the building. Different floor materials will have statistically significant possibilities of being distributed in a roughly predictable pattern.

At least one engine and a landing gear, probably from the nose, were ejected and came to rest over on Murray Street. This is predictable, since they are very dense and heavy. One landning gear wheel was found wedged between two elements of a panel of perimeter columns. I shall attempt to find pics of that one for you.

The large piece of fuselage was probably pressed up against the wall after the crash, then just shoved aside by the falling debris during collapse.

The majority of the aluminum from the aircraft would have been shredded badly on impacts with various strctural components and might already not have been precisely identifiable even before the collapse. Bear in mind the fire fighters' remarks about not finding even an identifiable chair.

During collapse, we have thousands of whirling axe blades further shredding materials of all sorts. This does not bode well for the survival of the black boxes.

Being housed in the empanage, the boxes would probably not have made it very far into the interior of the buildings, since a great deal of kinetic energy had been expended already when they entered the structures. They probably came to rest in the middle of the storm of grinding objects that fell down the inside of the tubes.

The chances of their having been pounded beyond recognition are running pretty high already.

Now, to go back to the sand analogy, the debris from the crush zone would have been among the first shoved off to the side, and not very far, at that. As the mass of debris accumulates, the dust plume can be seen to be widening.

Now we have an enormous proportion of the building falling on top of the boxes.

The story of the FBI recovering any identfizble piece of any of them sitting near the top of the pile now looks like a total crock of BS.

Mostly, the boxes would have been ground between floor slabs. It is a bit like a soft boulder the size of your head spending a couple hundred years being dragged along under a glacier. Not much will survive in a recognizeable shape.

Now, being on the bottom of the pile, they are subjected to fires that burn several hundred times longer than those they were intended to survive.

The debris field is a little less chaotic now.

Unfortunately for some special interests, it even more clearly shows that aircraft parts that were not ejected durig the crash are probably not going to be recognizable. Most of the components would have looked like as bit of wire harness or parts of somebody's boom box.

Did I mention that a large part of anything made of aluminum would have melted in the fires under the pile?

Softer items. such as leather brief cases and wallets survived because they could not shatter. Pieces of bone smaller than an inch long are still turning up in some of Rotten Rudy's pot hole patches.

Most of the initiator train for installed exlosives woud be most of copper components less likely to be destroyed in the cololapses. They would have been notice as something that should not have been there when the forensic specialist and fire fighters on the pile and at Fresh Kills.
 
DD, I don't think your...extemporaneous writing style is helping you communicate effectively.

Is extemporaneous the same as scatter brained? Drain Bamage

The sound of one hand clapping? If you have hyper flexible hands it can be done.
If you are talking about the Zen riddle (koan), then I consider the investigation and the results to be a riddle.

As claimed by who?
I would think fingertip inspection would mean that everything was touched and examined. This might take all of 2 seconds with the manpower that had available. It doesn't mean writing a dissertation on every piece. That description of the investigation and examination was how it was described by someone at this forum.


Embedded in what, pray tell?
Bad choice of nomenclature, embedded refers to remaining within the structure until the floor that the plane component rests in, joins the debris flow.

Most of the initiator train for installed exlosives would be most of copper components less likely to be destroyed in the collapses. They would have been notice as something that should not have been there when the forensic specialist and fire fighters on the pile and at Fresh Kills.
What explosives?


It is a bit like a soft boulder the size of your head spending a couple hundred years being dragged along under a glacier.
Hey, I never told anybody about that.
 
The majority of the aluminum from the aircraft would have been shredded badly on impacts with various strctural components and might already not have been precisely identifiable even before the collapse. Bear in mind the fire fighters' remarks about not finding even an identifiable chair.

During collapse, we have thousands of whirling axe blades further shredding materials of all sorts. This does not bode well for the survival of the black boxes.

Being housed in the empanage, the boxes would probably not have made it very far into the interior of the buildings, since a great deal of kinetic energy had been expended already when they entered the structures. They probably came to rest in the middle of the storm of grinding objects that fell down the inside of the tubes.

The chances of their having been pounded beyond recognition are running pretty high already.

I don't think truthers consider that the explosion the world witnessed when Flight 175 hit WTC 2 would have been mirrored INSIDE the building as well (ditto with Flight 11). There were explosions in the buildings, down the various shafts, on multiple floors, etc. Those boxes could have ended up anywhere, including in the basement.

And didn't some plane parts end up in the Marriott pool? Probably destroyed when both towers fell ON the Marriott in an obvious attempt to cover up the fact that fake plane parts had just been catapulted into the spa :rolleyes:
 
I don't think truthers consider that the explosion the world witnessed when Flight 175 hit WTC 2 would have been mirrored INSIDE the building as well (ditto with Flight 11). There were explosions in the buildings, down the various shafts, on multiple floors, etc. Those boxes could have ended up anywhere, including in the basement.

And didn't some plane parts end up in the Marriott pool? Probably destroyed when both towers fell ON the Marriott in an obvious attempt to cover up the fact that fake plane parts had just been catapulted into the spa :rolleyes:


down the various shafts,


Absolute nonsense.
 
down the various shafts,


Absolute nonsense.


Nonsense? Your inability to do even the most basic research in matters surrounding 9/11 is mind-boggling.

Have you seen the Naudet brothers documentary 9/11? Jules Naudet was one of the first people on the scene after the North Tower had been struck. He filmed from the lobby of the North Tower, just minutes after the first plane struck, where it looked like a bomb (simile) had gone off. It graphically describes and shows the damage and injuries due to the jet fuel rushing down the elevator shafts into the lobby. Naudet chose not to film the burn victims whose flesh had been burned off of them while they were on the elevators or standing outside the elevator doors. There are literally hundreds of eyewitness accounts of fire balls coming out of the elevator shafts after the impacts of AA 11 and UA 175. There were hundreds of burn victims in the aftermath, due to the fire balls streaming down the elevator shafts.

Clayton, this is just another example as to why you are not taken seriously. Do your homework before spouting off your next unsubstantiated incredulous fallicy due to ignorance.
 
Nonsense? Your inability to do even the most basic research in matters surrounding 9/11 is mind-boggling.

Have you seen the Naudet brothers documentary 9/11? Jules Naudet was one of the first people on the scene after the North Tower had been struck. He filmed from the lobby of the North Tower, just minutes after the first plane struck, where it looked like a bomb (simile) had gone off. It graphically describes and shows the damage and injuries due to the jet fuel rushing down the elevator shafts into the lobby. Naudet chose not to film the burn victims whose flesh had been burned off of them while they were on the elevators or standing outside the elevator doors. There are literally hundreds of eyewitness accounts of fire balls coming out of the elevator shafts after the impacts of AA 11 and UA 175. There were hundreds of burn victims in the aftermath, due to the fire balls streaming down the elevator shafts.

Clayton, this is just another example as to why you are not taken seriously. Do your homework before spouting off your next unsubstantiated incredulous fallicy due to ignorance.

How would a substantial amount of kerosene splash away from the initial fireball in the first place? Then how would that kerosene NOT bypass the lobby into the bottom of the shaft?
 
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