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Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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DeathDart said:
The original plan would have been for small scale attack that would start fires, that would go out of control, and bring the buildings down.

Casualties would be minimal and a total evacuation would have been possible.

But once the buildings are prepped the clock starts.

The fires heat can change the paste or jell from slightly corrosive to rapidly corrosive. Higher temperatures increase the chemical reactions and a well designed paste or jell might take months to cause significant damage at room temperature.
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Why don't you step out of la-la land and answer some of the questions you've been dodging.
 
Sam.I.Am said:
I don't know of one person who is trained to work with explosives that would even come within 100 yards of a burning building while handling explosives much less go into one carrying enough to bring one down.
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You want to see a powder monkey get emotional, just whip out a two-way radio or cell phone while he is handling blasting caps.
 
leftysergeant said:
The investigators were not on the site because they would have been in the way of search and rescue and recovery.

Most fire fighters get at least some trasining in arson investigations and would have been the first eschalon investigators, observing anything unusal in the pile. Iron workers doing the removal worker would have noticed signs of demolition.

The forensic scientists would have been better able to do their work off-site as the steel and rubble arrived at Fresh Kills.

Sulphuric acid would have been neutralized by contact with the cementic spray-on foam, producing calcium sulphate and carbon dioxide, unless massive quantities of the foam were removed.

The building engineering section would have noticed that much stuff being hauled out.

FAIL.
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I suspect most of the acid effects would be in the central core. When it collapsed it would flow until it was either neutralized or came to rest in a puddle.

At this point the hydrogen it is creating is being contained under the rubble. Where it makes contact with air and flame (or 500C surface) it will ignite.
Hydrogen air burns at about 2210C. On an infrared scan it would show up as about that hot. The flame is nearly invisible being in the near ultraviolet.

You are incorrect if the acid contacts metals.

Iron sulfides look a lot like rust or even dirt. I don't know what aluminum sulfur chemicals would look like.
 
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triforcharity said:
They didn't use the front entrance. They made their own entrance in the side of the building with a really big plane.
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Sorry My Dumb, I was referring to how the terrorists got talked past the Securacom Security at the departure airports.

Securacom was the security at both WTC AND the Airports.

We never got the security videos from the departure airports.

Securacom may have thought they were helping another minor crime so either the cameras were off or something was done so that no recordings were made.

When the FBI comes looking for the videos (if those FBI morons came looking for the videos) Securacom looked really bad.
 
DeathDart said:
Sorry My Dumb, I was referring to how the terrorists got talked past the Securacom Security at the departure airports.

Securacom was the security at both WTC AND the Airports.

We never got the security videos from the departure airports.

Securacom may have thought they were helping another minor crime so either the cameras were off or something was done so that no recordings were made.

When the FBI comes looking for the videos (if those FBI morons came looking for the videos) Securacom looked really bad.
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I see you ignored my answer on this. What did they do worng and why should they have been stopped?
 
leftysergeant said:
What you would have would be tons of the "Swiss cheese" steel al over the pile.

Didn't happen.
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You have people, who don't think that they guility, with capital punishment hanging over their heads, highly motivated to make sure no one sees the Swiss Cheese (Backed up by the ******* FBI). And yes there is absolutely corruption in the FBI.

When I say shell game, I meant shell game.

I think that most of the damage and corrosion is in the middle third of the core. The lower core is massive . This is just a guess. This is probably not visible in the debris pile until material is removed.
 
DeathDart said:
The World Trade Center was old it was having a lot of issues with maintenance and asbestos. Occupancy was in decline. This does fit the pattern for property to be used in an arson for profit scheme.

Securacom has deactivated the security cameras so that the movement of men and materials is not documented.

It wasn't Hush a Boom, it was thermally accelerated acid. But one of you already knew that.

The building may have been prepped for a conventional insurance scam. The chemical acid (sulfur based?) is applied as a (jell?) to the heat insulation in the core areas of the building and along the elevator shafts. At room temperature the reaction is very slow. This would also give off a minor sulfur smell, which would be masked by burning electrical insulation and other materials when the fire began.

Combined with the heat from a fire, the chemical reaction proceeds much more rapidly. Under typical fire conditions it would have took much longer than an hour for the buildings to collapse. The arson plan might have took as much as a day for the fires, along with the acid, to collapse the buildings.

The time it took WTC 7 to collapse was probably closer to the expected amount of time.

Once the building collapsed the debris pile became a huge hydrogen generator. The acid releases hydrogen after reacting with metals like steel and aluminum. The flame temperature of hydrogen burning in a air mixture is 2483K or 2210C. At some places under the rubble there are active hydrogen fires near concentrations of steel. The hydrogen-air flame is hot enough to melt steel. The steel is melted while it is in the ground.

The removal of steel before examination makes much more sense now. The core would have been visibly damaged by a corrosive substance. Some steel matching this description was recovered. This would also explain the quick (and pre-planned) response of the companies removing the steel.

The people prepping the building would be under the impression that their arson would cause only a few casualties. They did not know about the planes!

Securacom would not have any security video of passengers boarding the planes, because they thought they were just covering up some much lesser crime. So the while the Securacom people were probably criminal, they were also ignorant of the real goals of this plan.

This significantly reduces the number of people who knew about 9-11 ahead of time.

But who, or what, is the Spider at the center of this web pulling on all the threads?
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That was weirdly entertaining. Strange that no one reported sulfuric acid burns...:rolleyes:
 
DGM said:
I see you ignored my answer on this. What did they do worng and why should they have been stopped?
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You are correct they would not have been stopped, but it doesn't explain the lack of security video showing each person that boards those planes at some point in the videos.

After the flights numbers and the departure airports were known the FBI should have swooped down and gotten everything at those airports.

Once the flights were identified, the Securacom security at all those airport should have known that the FBI was coming, and prepare those recordings to be transported.

If the FBI didn't ask for them then they are either fools or traitors, take your pick.
If Securacom didn't have the videos, it may be because they were tricked.

What I do know is if those videos exist, someone is holding on to them real tight.
 
DeathDart said:
You are correct they would not have been stopped, but it doesn't explain the lack of security video showing each person that boards those planes at some point in the videos.
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IIRC the cameras were not functioning at the time. That too would explain why there were no videos.

After the flights numbers and the departure airports were known the FBI should have swooped down and gotten everything at those airports.

Once the flights were identified, the Securacom security at all those airport should have known that the FBI was coming, and prepare those recordings to be transported.
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If there were videos then yeah probably. However its not going to be an immediate requirement in the investigation since the planes have already crashed and all on board are already dead by this time.
If the FBI didn't ask for them then they are either fools or traitors, take your pick.
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IF? So you don't know whether or not the FBI asked for the videos later that day or not? Why even bring it up then, just to trash talk the FBI?

If Securacom didn't have the videos, it may be because they were tricked.
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Again with the "if"? Are you going to bring anything to the table other than your own wild speculation and trash talk?

What I do know is if those videos exist, someone is holding on to them real tight.
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Perhaps you are looking to establish a new nickname, "Iffy".
 
DeathDart said:
9-11 was probably a once in a generation event. You don't try something like this again until it passes from living memory.
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Oooohhhh, I see...........
DeathDart said:
So is sulfuric acid more interesting than thermite?
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"Interesting" in the way that the wild ramblings of the guy I saw argueing with his bicycle the other day was 'interesting". (the bike was apparently responding though for some reason I could only hear one side of this altercation)
 
This creates a possible scenario where a lot of people are highly motivated to destroy the evidence.
The organized crime personnel working at the site.

The FBI (No Evidence, Very Strong suspicions based on personal experience) The FBI is protecting someone, or Koch or the Neocons got one of their minions to oversee the WTC site. They might already know who double crossed Securacom and are here to prevent complications. They are covering the organized crime personnel's back on this occasion.
 
DeathDart said:
This creates a possible scenario where a lot of people are highly motivated to destroy the evidence.
The organized crime personnel working at the site.

The FBI (No Evidence, Very Strong suspicions based on personal experience) The FBI is protecting someone, or Koch or the Neocons got one of their minions to oversee the WTC site. They might already know who double crossed Securacom and are here to prevent complications. They are covering the organized crime personnel's back on this occasion.
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The fact that you can produce a fictional account does not grant such a scenario any standing in reality, Iffy.

If that were the case I would expect that we should be zippping about the universe in Starships with a Canadian at the bridge by now, aided by his loyal pointy eared friend, his Scottish engineer, an oriental gay guy and an Afro-American woman in a very short skirt.
 
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