Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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Oystein said:
I debated a truther from Dallas, Texas, for a few weeks earlier this year. Starting point was the AE911T petition. When I showed him that not a single strcutural or civil engineer from Dallas, of which there are more than 700, has signed that petition, I dared him to present his case not to me but to engineers from Dallas. His reason for not doing that was: They are all dependent on state money and would never dare to speak out. So basically, he said that out of 700 engineers in Dallas, Texas, 700 (100%) are cowards. He agreed, and we later extended that conjecture to the entire population of Texas. Apparently, there is not a single courageous person in all of the Lone Star state!
On top of that, I learned that nearly everybody in Dallas, and in Texas, is stupid and ill-educated.
Not sure if he exempted himself from that sweeping allegation of cowardice and stupidity.
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I guess it would be against forum rules for you to encourage him to go into a Dallas bar and make these conjectures in a loud voice.
 
Oystein said:
So basically, he said that out of 700 engineers in Dallas, Texas, 700 (100%) are cowards. He agreed, and we later extended that conjecture to the entire population of Texas. Apparently, there is not a single courageous person in all of the Lone Star state!
On top of that, I learned that nearly everybody in Dallas, and in Texas, is stupid and ill-educated.
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"Only steers and queers come from Texas, Private Cowboy. And you don't look much like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down."

Dave
 
June 8, 1967, Israeli forces attack the USS Liberty. They kill 34 American servicemen, wounding 171 others. It will be the highest casualty rate ever inflicted on a U.S. naval vessel, with 7 out of every 10 crew members killed or injured.
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Do we really need to post the casualty counts from Pearl Harbor to show how moronic this is?
 
Christopher7 said:
He overreacted. No worries. The damage looked bad but it was not structurally significant. He said he talked to an engineer. That engineer should have known that the debris damage was not the serious enough to prevent firefighters from entering the building.
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There are no words. At least none that I can say here on this nice polite forum.
 
Christopher7 said:
Only to someone who cannot see the obvious connection. I will explain it for you.

If a firefighter "goes against the PTB" and speaks out, they could loose their pension or worse - like Serpico.

ETA: Before you say it, I know Serpico did not lose his pension, he just got shot in the face because his back up didn't back him up.
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You mean like suing the city for ****** radios? You mean like speaking out against horrible buracratic decisions to purchase garbage radios?

You should just stop.
 
So, to sum it all up, basically everybody who could possibly have any legitimate information about 9-11 that contradicts the commonly-held narrative is, and has been for a decade, keeping quiet about it because they are cowards.

Just a thought: maybe it's because THERE'S NOTHING TO KEEP QUIET ABOUT? What a concept.

Truthers are idiots.
 
Christopher7 said:
1A pg 57
"Due to the focus on rescuing people trapped in the debris field, providing aid to the injured, and the loss of water in the hydrant system, FDNY was not able to consider the possibility of fighting the fires in WTC 7 until approximately 1:00 p.m."
In other words, at about 1:00 p.m., they had the water and personnel to to fight the fires in WTC 7. At 1:00 p.m. the only fires were on floors 7 and 12.

By 1:00 p.m., all the buildings in the area had no doubt been evacuated so the argument about not going into an unoccupied building is crap. Firefighters go into unoccupied buildings to put out fires.

It was another hour and a half before they gave the order to pull back

 At approximately 2:30 p.m., FDNY gave the order to forgo firefighting activity and for personnel to withdraw to a safe distance from the building.
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NIST 1-9 Page 300
"At approximately 1:00 p.m., an OEM staff member, a FDNY Deputy Chief, and a FDNY Battalion Chief entered WTC 7 to further evaluate conditions. The OEM staff member reported that they entered WTC 7 through the door near the southeast corner on West Broadway and proceeded up the B stairway on the east side. They stopped at the 3rt floor level. The atrium was filled with dust but had no significant debris. As they observed the area, they heard the building creaking. Debris was piled up on the Vesey Street side between Columns 17 and 22. They checked the 4th and 5* floors and did not see much damage from their viewing location. At the 5* floor, they moved to the A stairway and proceeded up. On the 8* or 9* floor, one of the group said he saw two elevator cars ejected from their shafts and in the hallway. Looking past the elevators, they could see a gaping hole in the south face from around the 6th to the 9tt floors. They could see one floor below and two to three floors above that location. A lot of the core walls were destroyed, and one individual reported that he saw columns hanging from the floor above. They did not observe any fires at this time on the 8* floor or 9th floor, but the interviewee reported that they could hear fires burning well above where they were standing. Also, they continued to hear creaking noises in the building. As the FDNY Officers continued their inspection of WTC 7, they heard a loud noise, and a Chief decided that they should evacuate the building. They also met a Deputy Chief who had just returned from inside the building, and he reported that he had conducted an inspection up to the 7* or 8* floor. He indicated that the stairway he was in was filling with smoke and that there was a lot of fire inside the building.
When a Chief Officer got to Barclay Street and West Broadway, numerous firefighters and officers were exiting WTC 7. These firefighters indicated that several blocks needed to be cleared around WTC 7 because they thought that the building was going to collapse"

Only the willfully ignorant and terminally stupid believe that fire fighting efforts should have been continued in WTC 7
 
Christopher7 said:
We are talking about water availability not PRIORITIES.
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Actually 'priorities' would be included in 'availability'.

If there was water at the area BUT that water was already spoken for in other operations then one must decide whether or not WTC 7 was a higher priority than the ongoing operations now using that supply.

WE KNOW that there were no people in WTC 7.
WE KNOW that the structure was certainly not 100% stable.
WE KNOW that sending guys in dozens of flights up into a structure that is unstable puts them at great risk on a day that has already seen hundreds of people die.

WE KNOW that keeping fires from spreading to less damaged buildings and clearing streets of burning vehicles will be more productive than attempting to save an unoccupied structure.

We know all of the above before having to decide how to allocate a less than optimal water supply yet YOU, 10 years after the fact, decide that water should have been diverted to attempt to save this unoccupied, unstable 47 storey structure.
,,, And why would you make this contention? Because its your desire to illustrate that WTC 7 was deliberatly left alone so that unknown and unseen persons could enter the building with unknown and unseen equipment in order to CAUSE the building to come down in a global collapse.

You then have said that the Chiefs would not have been in-on-it neccessarily and that this decision to leave WTC 7 was made by an unseen, unnamed and unknown 'official who no one will come forward and name and that the interview in which NIST claims that the decision to leave WTC 7 was made by the Chiefs is a fiction.

How is it that the Chiefs have never, not a one, come forward and said "I was in charge but I did not tell NIST anything like that"? ooooohhh because they have all been threatened into aquiescence, or bought off. Same must apply to the huge number of FF 'grunts' who being experienced professional FFs would have known that this is a line of BS and that there was plenty of water to allocate to WTC 7. They must all be threatened or bought off too. Not a one of them has the moral fortitude to stand up and say "damn the consequences I'm speaking out and imploring my brethern to stand with me"
How very astute of the conspirators to know that they could count on the ease by which fire crews and Chiefs could be cowed into submission EVEN AS SOME OF THEM LAY ON THEIR DEATHBEDS IN YEARS (10 so far) TO COME!

Your position is hopeless Chris. I only hope that you can see this at some point.
 
Christopher7 said:
He overreacted. No worries. The damage looked bad but it was not structurally significant. He said he talked to an engineer. That engineer should have known that the debris damage was not the serious enough to prevent firefighters from entering the building.
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OMG,,, yeah an engineer probably could have made that determination AFTER an extensive survey inside and out. However, they did not and had no pressing reason to order men and equipment into the building to made such a survey. Instead all they had was the relatively quick search to see if anyone was inside and the reports from the FFs who performed that search.

By 1:00 p.m. they had water and personnel to fight the fire in WTC 7. See post 8202.
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What was being done with that water at that time Chris? Just sitting there in pressurized hoses?

Shyam Sunder lied about there being a 10 story gouge 1/3 the width and floor 10 to the ground in the so called "Debunking" PM article. The authors of the final report lied about the fire on floor 12 thermally expanding the floor beams under floor 13 at 5:20 p.m.
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Sunder may have been incorrect in detail but there was a ten storey gouge in the building and a well backed hypothesis is that thermal expansion caused the beams to push a girder off its seats.
Neither could be considered a 'lie' by any standard except yours.

Not that I know of, but if anyone did we would never hear about it.
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Absolute and unequivocal sophistry on your part Chris.
HOW WOULD the supposed conspirators know for sure that several Chiefs would not band together and come forth? How how how Chris? These supposed conspirators have just committed mass murder and are going to pin their lives on being able to keep a dozen FDNY fore Chiefs quite FOR EVER as well as hundreds of regular FFs!!!

abosutly astounding that you have a world view that allows that such a fiction could be true.

People have made FoIA requests for all the information but most have been denied.

I have lost track of where this started. What is your question?
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ME too. IIRC though I wanted to know how the Chiefs and regular FFs were all kept quite for ten years and counting. You said that you had expounded upon this in pages past and I asked for a page or post number if you please.
 
DeathDart said:
Ok, Look up NIST NCSTAR 1-3B in PDF
Read Pages 3 and 4
Page 3 describes what the investigators were looking for.
Exterior column panels and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and /or impacted by aircraft

Exterior column panels and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 directly above and below the impact zone.

The steel was moved to Fresh Kills landfill site, which was designated as a crime scene, and then fingertip searched at that location.

If this is an accurate description of what was done.

Look at the executive summary page XXV

Where is the steel from impacted floors?

They were specifically trying to get it.

Where is that steel?

Why wasn't it saved?
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Part of the problem is that in order to have and inspect
Exterior column panels and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and /or impacted by aircraft Exterior column panels and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 directly above and below the impact zone
One has to be able to positively identify the original location of the damaged steel pieces being looked over at Fresh Kills. If identifying marks are burned away or unreadable then even if it looks like its been part of the material you are looking for you cannot use it because you cannot know it actually is.
Secondly much of the steel was pulled from underground where it had been subject to high heat for days or weeks. You cannot use any of this either because you cannot positivly identify if the heat damage you see was caused pre or post collapse.

That was pretty simple , no?
 
Animal said:
NIST 1-9 Page 300
"At approximately 1:00 p.m., an OEM staff member, a FDNY Deputy Chief, and a FDNY Battalion Chief entered WTC 7 to further evaluate conditions. The OEM staff member reported that they entered WTC 7 through the door near the southeast corner on West Broadway and proceeded up the B stairway on the east side. They stopped at the 3rt floor level. The atrium was filled with dust but had no significant debris. As they observed the area, they heard the building creaking. Debris was piled up on the Vesey Street side between Columns 17 and 22. They checked the 4th and 5* floors and did not see much damage from their viewing location. At the 5* floor, they moved to the A stairway and proceeded up. On the 8* or 9* floor, one of the group said he saw two elevator cars ejected from their shafts and in the hallway. Looking past the elevators, they could see a gaping hole in the south face from around the 6th to the 9tt floors. They could see one floor below and two to three floors above that location. A lot of the core walls were destroyed, and one individual reported that he saw columns hanging from the floor above. They did not observe any fires at this time on the 8* floor or 9th floor, but the interviewee reported that they could hear fires burning well above where they were standing. Also, they continued to hear creaking noises in the building. As the FDNY Officers continued their inspection of WTC 7, they heard a loud noise, and a Chief decided that they should evacuate the building. They also met a Deputy Chief who had just returned from inside the building, and he reported that he had conducted an inspection up to the 7* or 8* floor. He indicated that the stairway he was in was filling with smoke and that there was a lot of fire inside the building.
When a Chief Officer got to Barclay Street and West Broadway, numerous firefighters and officers were exiting WTC 7. These firefighters indicated that several blocks needed to be cleared around WTC 7 because they thought that the building was going to collapse"

Only the willfully ignorant and terminally stupid believe that fire fighting efforts should have been continued in WTC 7
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Chris is trying to tell us that all of this should have been ignored not because he really wanted WTC 7 to be saved or because he believes that the FDNY are a bunch of cowards in the face of danger. Nooo, Chris is telling us that they did not actually make this determination and that NIST made it up and the FDNY personell have laid down and allowed this lie to be told on their behalf all because Chris needs to show that WTC 7 was entered by unknown persons with unknown equipment to cause WTC 7 to be brought down by means other than anything NIST says.
 
jaydeehess said:
Chris is trying to tell us that all of this should have been ignored not because he really wanted WTC 7 to be saved or because he believes that the FDNY are a bunch of cowards in the face of danger. Nooo, Chris is telling us that they did not actually make this determination and that NIST made it up and the FDNY personell have laid down and allowed this lie to be told on their behalf all because Chris needs to show that WTC 7 was entered by unknown persons with unknown equipment to cause WTC 7 to be brought down by means other than anything NIST says.
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You forgot unknown motives, or have truthers come up with a plausible motive to go through all of these supposed nefarious efforts that warrants the high risk of imprisonment or worse if discovered?
 
I think I'm onto your game now, Chris7. You go away, come back*, and cherry-pick the questions and statements you want to respond to, while ignoring other, pertinent ones such as "how much water was available for use Sept. 11th, 2001 between the time fires were started in WTC 7 and its collapse, taking in mind the other fires that had to be fought?", "how much water would've been "enough" to fight said fires?", and "were the FDNY complicit or not?"

*Possibly for legit reasons, I don't know.
 
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000063 said:
I think I'm onto your game now, Chris7. You go away, come back*, and cherry-pick the questions and statements you want to respond to, while ignoring other, pertinent ones such as "how much water was available for use Sept. 11th, 2001 between the time fires were started in WTC 7 and its collapse, taking in mind the other fires that had to be fought?", "how much water would've been "enough" to fight said fires?", and "were the FDNY complicit or not?"

*Possibly for legit reasons, I don't know.
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Carpentry takes up a lot of time.
 
Animal said:
NIST 1-9 Page 300
"At approximately 1:00 p.m., an OEM staff member, a FDNY Deputy Chief, and a FDNY Battalion Chief entered WTC 7 to further evaluate conditions. The OEM staff member reported that they entered WTC 7 through the door near the southeast corner on West Broadway and proceeded up the B stairway on the east side. They stopped at the 3rt floor level. The atrium was filled with dust but had no significant debris. As they observed the area, they heard the building creaking. Debris was piled up on the Vesey Street side between Columns 17 and 22. They checked the 4th and 5* floors and did not see much damage from their viewing location. At the 5* floor, they moved to the A stairway and proceeded up. On the 8* or 9* floor, one of the group said he saw two elevator cars ejected from their shafts and in the hallway. Looking past the elevators, they could see a gaping hole in the south face from around the 6th to the 9tt floors. They could see one floor below and two to three floors above that location. A lot of the core walls were destroyed, and one individual reported that he saw columns hanging from the floor above. They did not observe any fires at this time on the 8* floor or 9th floor, but the interviewee reported that they could hear fires burning well above where they were standing. Also, they continued to hear creaking noises in the building. As the FDNY Officers continued their inspection of WTC 7, they heard a loud noise, and a Chief decided that they should evacuate the building. They also met a Deputy Chief who had just returned from inside the building, and he reported that he had conducted an inspection up to the 7* or 8* floor. He indicated that the stairway he was in was filling with smoke and that there was a lot of fire inside the building.
When a Chief Officer got to Barclay Street and West Broadway, numerous firefighters and officers were exiting WTC 7. These firefighters indicated that several blocks needed to be cleared around WTC 7 because they thought that the building was going to collapse"

Only the willfully ignorant and terminally stupid believe that fire fighting efforts should have been continued in WTC 7
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And willfully ignorant he is, Read the link in my sig,


firefighters would NEVER make waves and risk losing their pensions, Chris?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/200...refighters_kin_sue_over_deutsche_bank_-1.html


Chris, go back to bending over nails with a 16 ounce hammer, That's about your speed.
 
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