"Germany E. coli Outbreak One of Largest on Record"

[Skeptic Ginger]

This post I put in the related thread might also be of interest to people reading this one. It discusses how antibiotics trigger a reaction in the organism that doesn't just release more Shiga toxin as would happen when the bacteria die and their cells rupture and spill the contents, rather the lysing and spilling of the Shiga toxin is done via an active role of phages within the bacteria.

The toxin is encoded on a phage and if that latent phage is activated it will lyse bacteria releasing toxin.

Bacteriophages are packaged genetic material considered viruses that infect bacteria. They serve as vehicles transferring genes between organisms including antibiotic resistance genes. In this case they reside inside the pathogen separate from the bacteria's nucleus and are involved in the bacteria's response to antibiotics.

 

[!Kaggen]

So this new strain could have been transmitted from human to human via the bean-sprouts.

This is the most likely explanation because bean sprouts are not grown using anything but water.
Also the contaminated source has yet to be found. It would have been easy enough to test the water source.

So one resistant but contaminated person who did not sanitize their hands properly packing bean sprouts could easily have contaminated enough to cause this epidemic.
I wonder if they have done stool tests on all the people who might have handled the bean sprouts?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So this new strain could have been transmitted from human to human via the bean-sprouts.

This is the most likely explanation because bean sprouts are not grown using anything but water.
Also the contaminated source has yet to be found. It would have been easy enough to test the water source.

So one resistant but contaminated person who did not sanitize their hands properly packing bean sprouts could easily have contaminated enough to cause this epidemic.
I wonder if they have done stool tests on all the people who might have handled the bean sprouts?

There's no evidence of a single human source in this outbreak.

There's a difference between a human reservoir and an individual patient zero.

 

[!Kaggen]

There's no evidence of a single human source in this outbreak.

How do you know? Press reports? Studies on the genetics of the pathogen?

All the epidemiological evidence has suggested is that it originated from bean sprouts.

There is no evidence that it originates from animals either. The genetics is showing that it is a hybrid between EAggEC strain and STEC strain. The EAggEC strain have a human reservoir so its not impossible that the new hybrid also has only a human reservoir.

In fact the evidence suggests that it is unlikely to be from animal manure since beansprouts are grown with nothing but water. They are however very handled by humans when packaged.

And if its from contaminated water, then why is it not contaminated anymore?

There's a difference between a human reservoir and an individual patient zero.

No kidding. The point I am making is that its a novel hybrid which had to originate from somewhere. Why not in a single human?

 

[Aepervius]

So this new strain could have been transmitted from human to human via the bean-sprouts.

This is the most likely explanation because bean sprouts are not grown using anything but water.
Also the contaminated source has yet to be found. It would have been easy enough to test the water source.

So one resistant but contaminated person who did not sanitize their hands properly packing bean sprouts could easily have contaminated enough to cause this epidemic.
I wonder if they have done stool tests on all the people who might have handled the bean sprouts?

I seriously doubt the sprout grow only on water, as most cells needs a bit more than CHON, but also some bit of S for example (and the N is usually ahrd to get from atmospheric N except from specialized bacteria colony).

 

[!Kaggen]

I should know what I am talking about. I work with professional sprout farmers experimenting with controlling E.Coli and other faecal coliform levels in the water used to keep the sprouts moist using lactic acid bacteria instead of chlorine.

Almost all untreated water I have tested contain small amounts of E.Coli. For some reason these normally harmless small amounts tend to multiply very quickly on sprouts to often high levels which increases risk of their being a pathogenic strains.

As I have said before organic farmers probably avoid using chlorine and take the chance that their water is not contaminated and/or they don't have a problem.

The home sprout grower is also at risk using untreated water, but because it's not mass production the risk is lower.

Actually all vegetables/greens are a risk as anyone who has gotten sick eating these in S.America, India or Africa will attest.

It has always been a concern, but with mass production and more people the problem is getting bigger.

Not using manure is not the solution. We need to recycle manure from all animals into the future. We will run out of phosphates without doing this.

The question is how do we make manure safe?

My work is looking at using lactic acid bacteria to control these pathogens throughout there life cycle. By giving farm animals lactic acid bacteria (LAB) in their diets, treating their environments, skin/fur, food and manure with LAB we can reduce E.Coli and faecal coliforms. The next
step is to treat their manure.Then treating food. Using LAB for cleaning food factories, retailers, fridges, containers, hospitals and homes . Then using LAB prophylatically both internally and topically on humans and their pets. Treating human food waste, grey water and sewerage water. Finally treating humans both prophylatically both internally and externally.

 

[Slimething]

I should know what I am talking about. I work with professional sprout farmers experimenting with controlling E.Coli and other faecal coliform levels in the water used to keep the sprouts moist using lactic acid bacteria instead of chlorine.

Last time, when we were discussing organic farming, you claimed to work with local row and field crop growers teaching them how to efficiently produce food organically. Your career seems to vary with the topic. Good to meet such a versatile fellow!

Almost all untreated water I have tested contain small amounts of E.Coli. For some reason these normally harmless small amounts tend to multiply very quickly on sprouts to often high levels which increases risk of their being a pathogenic strains.

Um, no. Small amounts of e. coli, allowed to reproduce, do not magically sprout pathological strains. Nice try.

As I have said before organic farmers probably avoid using chlorine and take the chance that their water is not contaminated and/or they don't have a problem.

Maybe you have a different definition of organic farming than the rest of us. I have no idea why an organic farmer would not use chlorine to disinfect water. Organic farming means using only non-synthetic means of controlling pests.

It has always been a concern, but with mass production and more people the problem is getting bigger.

Ummm, no. Only with organic farming. Modern farming practices controlled this risk ages ago. Then again, I'm not totally opposed to neo-Luddites exposing themselves to natural selective pressure.

Not using manure is not the solution.

Actually, it is.

The question is how do we make manure safe?

Well, you could always post it on JREF. Some people might believe it.

 

[Aepervius]

I take that back, indeed it seems that to only have "sprouting" you only need to have water, and it happens relatively quickly. I was thinking of a grown plant but that is not what is spoken about here. My bad.

 

[!Kaggen]

I should know what I am talking about. I work with professional sprout farmers experimenting with controlling E.Coli and other faecal coliform levels in the water used to keep the sprouts moist using lactic acid bacteria instead of chlorine.

Last time, when we were discussing organic farming, you claimed to work with local row and field crop growers teaching them how to efficiently produce food organicallyproduce food using organic farming methods. Your career seems to vary with the topic. Good to meet such a versatile fellow!

FTFY . What can I say probiotics have many applications.

Almost all untreated water I have tested contain small amounts of E.Coli. For some reason these normally harmless small amounts tend to multiply very quickly on sprouts to often high levels which increases risk of their being a pathogenic strains.

Um, no. Small amounts of e. coli, allowed to reproduce, do not magically sprout pathological strains. Nice try.

Sure some people consider evolution magic perhaps your one of them.

As I have said before organic farmers probably avoid using chlorine and take the chance that their water is not contaminated and/or they don't have a problem.

Maybe you have a different definition of organic farming than the rest of us. I have no idea why an organic farmer would not use chlorine to disinfect water. Organic farming means using only non-synthetic means of controlling pests.

I suggest reading up on the organic rules and regulations then.

For instance in the EU the principles for accessing chlorine are:

Important principles for the processing of organic products include the:

Strict restriction of which additives and processing aids can be used
Strict restriction of chemically synthesised inputs Prohibition of the use of genetically modified organisms (GMOs)

http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/organic-farming/what-organic/organic-food_en

And Chlorine is only allowed for the cleaning and disinfection of buildings and installations for animal production ANNEX VII (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:250:0001:0084:EN:PDF)


In the US this is the latest report assessing chlorine.

Evaluation Question #1: Is the petitioned substance formulated or manufactured by a chemical process? 180 (From 7 U.S.C. § 6502 (21)) 181
182
Calcium hypochlorite, sodium hypochlorite, and chlorine dioxide are all synthetic materials that are 183 manufactured by chemical processes. The chemical manufacturing processes for calcium hypochlorite, 184 sodium hypochlorite, and chlorine dioxide are described below. 185
186
As discussed above (see ―Action of the Substance‖), calcium and sodium hypochlorite in soil or water 187 separate into sodium, calcium, OCl-, and HOCl molecules, and it is HOCl that plays a major role in 188 disinfection. HOCl may also be produced through electrolysis of diluted salt (see Evaluation Question #13 189 for further discussion). 190
191
Technical Evaluation Report Chlorine/Bleach Crops
January 31, 2011 Page 6 of 16
Calcium Hypochlorite7 192
193
Calcium hypochlorite is produced by passing chlorine gas over slaked lime.8 It is then separated from the 194 coproduct, calcium chloride, and air dried or vacuumed. 195
196
Sodium Hypochlorite9 197
198
Generally, sodium hypochlorite is produced by reacting chlorine with a solution of sodium hydroxide 199 (NaOH, also called lye or caustic soda). This method is used for most commercial productions of sodium 200 hypochlorite. A more active, but less stable formulation of sodium hypochlorite can be produced by 201 chlorinating a solution of soda ash (Na2CO3). 202
203
Chlorine Dioxide10 204
205
To form chlorine dioxide, sodium chlorate (NaClO3) and sulfuric acid (H2SO4) are reacted with sulfur 206 dioxide (SO2), or chloric acid is reacted with methanol (CH3OH) (HSDB, 2010). Alternatively, chlorine 207 dioxide can be formed with chlorine (Cl2) and sodium chlorite; sodium hypochlorite with hydrochloric 208 acid; potassium chlorate with sulfuric acid; or by passing nitrogen dioxide through a column of sodium 209 chlorate. 210
211
Evaluation Question #2: Is the petitioned substance formulated or manufactured by a process that 212 chemically changes the substance extracted from naturally occurring plant, animal, or mineral sources? 213 (From 7 U.S.C. § 6502 (21).) 214
215
No. Calcium hypochlorite, sodium hypochlorite, and chlorine dioxide are all synthetic materials that are 216 manufactured by chemical processes. They are not extracted from naturally occurring sources. 217
218
Evaluation Question #3: Is the petitioned substance created by naturally occurring biological 219 processes? (From 7 U.S.C. § 6502 (21).) 220
221
No. Calcium hypochlorite, sodium hypochlorite, and chlorine dioxide are all synthetic materials that are 222 not found in nature. 223
224

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5089552&acct=nopgeninfo

Currently chlorine is allowed for disinfecting and sanitizing food contact surfaces although levels in water shall not exceed the maximum residual disinfectant limit under the Safe Drinking water act. (4mg/L) (http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3100278&acct=nopgeninfo)

This residual amount sometimes is not enough to control E.Coli on an ongoing basis when water is misted (allows for chlorine to evaporate easier) onto bean sprouts 24/7. Also organic farmers tend to try reduce the amount of chlorine they use as they see it as counteractive to the image they are trying to create. Some studies have shown chlorine tolerance of pathogenic E.Coli 0157:H7 strains http://198.246.98.21/ncidod/osr/site/eip/pdf/zhao-2001-chlorine inactiv of e-coli O157h7.pdf

It has always been a concern, but with mass production and more people the problem is getting bigger.

Ummm, no. Only with organic farming. Modern farming practices controlled this risk ages ago. Then again, I'm not totally opposed to neo-Luddites exposing themselves to natural selective pressure.

So all 5000 deaths from food poisoning in the USA per year are due to organic food ( http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no5/mead.htm)?

Not using manure is not the solution.

Actually, it is.

So

Cornell University is wrong http://compost.css.cornell.edu/ and www.manuremanagement.cornell.edu/


as well as

Minnesota http://www.manure.umn.edu/

Nebraska http://water.unl.edu/manure

Ohio http://ohioline.osu.edu/b604/

The question is how do we make manure safe?

Well, you could always post it on JREF. Some people might believe it.

The educated ones yes.

 

[Kuko 4000]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Economics

While organic food accounts for 1–2% of total food sales worldwide, the organic food market is growing rapidly, far ahead of the rest of the food industry, in both developed and developing nations.

Organic products accounted for 3.7% of total food and beverage sales, and 11.4% of all fruit and vegetable sales in the year 2009.

That's not a very big portion of the overall consumed food. When claiming one way or the other one should provide data that compares the percentages and not the individual cases, I'd be interested in seeing more of that.

The literature is of course a mixed bag, which could be due to many confounding factors that I haven't had the time to go trough:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Consumer_Safety

Consumer Safety

There is widespread belief that organic food is significantly safer for consumption than food grown conventionally, based mainly on anecdotal evidence and testimonials rather than scientific evidence, which has fueled increased demand for organic food despite higher prices.[24] Reviews of the available body of scientific literature comparing the safety of organic to conventional foods have found neither to be significantly more safe than the other.[24][25][26] Firm conclusions about the relative safety of organic foods has been hampered by the difficulty in proper study design and relatively small number of studies directly comparing organic food to conventional food.[24]

Claims of improved safety of organic food has largely focused on pesticide residues. While studies have shown organically grown fruits and vegetables have significantly lower pesticide residue levels, the significance of this finding on actual health risk reduction is debatable as both conventional foods and organic foods generally have pesticide levels well below government established guidelines for what is considered safe.[24] This view has been echoed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture[27] and the UK Food Standards Agency.[28] Claims of increased risk related to pesticide residue and rates of infertility or lower sperm counts have not been supported by the evidence in the medical literature.[24] Reviews have noted that the risks from microbiological sources or natural toxins are likely to be much more significant than short term or chronic risks from pesticide residues.[24][26]

Some focus has been placed on the amount of nitrogen content in certain vegetables, especially green leafy vegetables and tubers when grown organically as compared to conventionally. While these vegetables, when grown organically, have been found to have lower nitrogen content, there is no consensus as to whether consumption of lower levels of nitrogen translates to improved health risk. When evaluating environmental toxins such as heavy metals, the USDA noted that organically raised chicken may have lower arsenic levels,[27] while a literature review found no significant evidence that levels of arsenic, cadmium or other heavy metals differed significantly between organic and conventional food products.[24]

In looking at possible increased risk to safety from organic food consumption, reviews have found that although there are theoretical increased risk from microbiological contamination due to increased manure use as fertilizer from organisms like E. coli O157:H7 during organic produce production, there does not exist sufficient evidence of actual incidence of outbreaks that can be clearly tied to organic food production to draw any firm conclusions.[24][25] Other possible sources of increased safety risk from organic food consumption like use of biological pesticides or the theoretical risk from mycotoxins from fungi grown on products due to the lack of effective organic compliant fungicides have likewise not been confirmed by rigorous studies in the scientific literature.[24][26]

But then there are studies like this:

http://www.cabi.org/cabdirect/FullTextPDF/2010/20103349935.pdf

And this from the International Journal of Food Microbiology:

http://www.ask-force.org/web/Organic/Mukherjee-Associatioin-Escherichia-2007.pdf

...that raise interesting questions of the real issues in organic farming.

An acquintance of mine, a long time (30 years, retired last year) professor of plant biology in the University of Helsinki, goes a bit further. He is a pretty vocal critic of organic farming, and instead he wants to promote the best practices from everything with no unnecessary ideologies to get in the way. He still runs and updates the University's website on plant biology, many of the articles selected are in English:

http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/tammisol/

And then there's this:

http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=270

Wallace Institute Got It Wrong: CDC Data Does Indicate Higher Risk From Organic And Natural Foods

Dennis Avery is known for his controversial stance in AGW, so I would have to look at everything he writes in more detail than usual, the points he makes here seem interesting, but I haven't had the time to go through them. Worth taking a closer look for anyone interested.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

How do you know? Press reports? Studies on the genetics of the pathogen?

All the epidemiological evidence has suggested is that it originated from bean sprouts.

There is no evidence that it originates from animals either. The genetics is showing that it is a hybrid between EAggEC strain and STEC strain. The EAggEC strain have a human reservoir so its not impossible that the new hybrid also has only a human reservoir.

In fact the evidence suggests that it is unlikely to be from animal manure since beansprouts are grown with nothing but water. They are however very handled by humans when packaged.

And if its from contaminated water, then why is it not contaminated anymore?



No kidding. The point I am making is that its a novel hybrid which had to originate from somewhere. Why not in a single human?

There were 3 workers at the source farm who had infection early on. If it were from one of them the timing of their illness would have been staggered. It's my impression they were ill near the same time. That leaves an asymptomatic first case or the organism evolved outside any human reservoir.

You know yourself that e-coli grows on sprouts directly. The epidemiology pattern points to the initial emergence in a non-human source at the farm.

And now we have these first cases of secondary spread detected. There are no reports suggesting any other patient zero is suspected.

 

[Slimething]

FTFY . What can I say probiotics have many applications.

What can I say? So you are active in probiotics? Go here for a definition of probiotics. That has nothing to do with raising field crops, something you claimed to know about in a different thread. Are your pants on fire? Just wondering.

Sure some people consider evolution magic perhaps your one of them.

Maybe they do but you think it's magic. Your gut has been breeding E. choli for decades. Other than an unlinked tendency toward fantasy and prevarication, the strain hasn't generated anything that has killed you.

I suggest reading up on the organic rules and regulations then.

I linked a definition of organic farming in my reply. Here you're resorting to your usual prevarication (aka lying). The inputs you have posted plainly refer to soil amendments and pre and post emergent spraying, not water treatment.

I'm not going into your various links. They are unrelated to the fact that organic farming has nothing to do with water treatments. The only way that would happen is in that fantasy land you call a mind. If you disagree, please yank out of any one fo those a regulation/recommendation that links water treatment and organic farming.

That's right, organic farming. Not disinfection of surfaces, buildings, bleaching paper stock, etc. Like I said, posting manure on websites doesn't necessarily fool everyone.

So all 5000 deaths from food poisoning in the USA per year are due to organic food ( http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no5/mead.htm)?

Let me know if you have any straw left over. Where did I claim that? Food poisoning arises may ways. Organic farming is only one contributor.

So

Cornell University is wrong http://compost.css.cornell.edu/ and www.manuremanagement.cornell.edu/


as well as

Minnesota http://www.manure.umn.edu/

Nebraska http://water.unl.edu/manure

Ohio http://ohioline.osu.edu/b604/

Not going to waste my time on finding whatever content you feel supports your feeble claims may reside therein. Pull it out and let the sun shine on it.

The educated ones yes.

Not likely. From the lack of support for your claims, I think you're in the wrong forum. Let me suggest www.paranoididiots.com or maybe www.bigagispoisoningtheplanetandme.com or some other such idiot-infested venue. I don't think you've found a home here.

 

[!Kaggen]

some more news

The EU bans the import of some Egyptian seeds and beans after fenugreek is linked to killer E. coli outbreaks in Germany and France.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14035120

Hmm still no link to organic farming.

 

[Christian Klippel]

some more news


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14035120

Hmm still no link to organic farming.

You mean, other than the fact that the source of the German EHEC outbreak is found to be a organic farming facility in Bienenbüttel (link to a German site)?

But i understand you. Organic this, organic that, it's sooooo good, no way that it could be the source of such problems. That would simply scratch the dream of "organic stuff is the best". Spilling tons of fermented bullcrap, waste meat, etc. mixed together is so much cleaner and better than using sterile fertilizers.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Kuko 4000]

From the link:

The actual contamination of the seeds with STEC O104:H4, it said, reflected "a production or distribution process which allowed contamination with faecal material of human and/or animal origin".

Makes me suspect organic production way more than conventional. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Kuko 4000]

Christian, that was my current understanding as well, but what about this from the BBC link:

A single batch of fenugreek seeds is the likely cause of both a major outbreak of highly toxic E. coli - STEC O104:H4 - in Germany in May, and a smaller outbreak in France detected late last month, the EFSA said in its report.

Here's the EFSA press release:

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/110705.htm

 

[!Kaggen]

You mean, other than the fact that the source of the German EHEC outbreak is found to be a organic farming facility in Bienenbüttel (link to a German site)?

But i understand you. Organic this, organic that, it's sooooo good, no way that it could be the source of such problems. That would simply scratch the dream of "organic stuff is the best". Spilling tons of fermented bullcrap, waste meat, etc. mixed together is so much cleaner and better than using sterile fertilizers.

Greetings,

Chris

You are seriously deluded old chap

I suppose the biggest tomato farmers (http://www.zz2.biz/) in the Southern Hemisphere are idiots

 

[Christian Klippel]

Christian, that was my current understanding as well, but what about this from the BBC link:



Here's the EFSA press release:

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/110705.htm

Which brings to questions:

First, why did it start at only one organic farm in Germany (France was much later), and so far could not be tracked down to other farms. If it really came from seeds, one would suspect a somewhat wider affected range of farms.

And second, does anyone know who that seed producer in Egypt is, and under what conditions they work? Personally i would not be surprised if they follow organic farming rules as well, imposed on them by their buyers.

It is interesting to note that the importer for these seeds is a German company, and they also state in the report that usually a mixture of different seeds is sold to the customers. This is especially interesting because, as mentioned, the outbreak originated in Germany. Could it be that the importer did mix the Egyptian seeds with other, locally produced seeds?

I find it somewhat suspicious that it originated here in Germany, exclusively on a organic farm, and that the importer of the allegedly contaminated seeds is in Germany as well. From what i know, organic farms are required to get seeds and stuff only from approved "organic" sources as well, at least here in Germany. For example, you can not buy genetically modified seeds and just grow them organically and then sell the crop as "organic". There are tons of very strict regulations over here about what you can call organic and what not.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Christian Klippel]

You are seriously deluded old chap

I suppose the biggest tomato farmers (http://www.zz2.biz/) in the Southern Hemisphere are idiots

So, nothing to attack in the message, and therefore you are left with attacking the messenger? Could have guessed that...

Greetings,

Chris

Edit:

Oh, and you may want to talk to the guys in the Netherlands. 720,000 tonnes produced in 2008, compared to 420,701 tonnes in South-Africa, where that ZZ2 brand is located.

 

[!Kaggen]

ZZ2 producers 50% of the South African tomatoes. Significant apples and onions.

Why would they have talk to the Dutch? They can't export tomatoes to Europe. 3 weeks by ship. Not going to happen. They dominate the tomato local market and could not expand further sales. So they recently, last 10 years, started with apples for export. Where they have partnered with the biggest apple exporter of the region to make compost for their trees.

It helps when you know what your talking about.