"Germany E. coli Outbreak One of Largest on Record"

[!Kaggen]

What, the fallacy that "organic" food is healthier? Well, maybe people will think a bit before they repeat that canard in future.

Rolfe.

Strawman fallacy

Where is the evidence that organically grown food is any different to non-organically grown food when it comes to pathogen contamination?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Strawman fallacy

Where is the evidence that organically grown food is any different to non-organically grown food when it comes to pathogen contamination?

Perhaps my irony comment needs more elaboration. Again, I'm not the one who suggests organic food is healthier. But the environment is included in the claim, not just individual health. Personally, I'm under the impression that the jury is still out on whether organic farming is a worthwhile investment.

However, the size of this particular E.coli strain outbreak is suspected to be related to it also having acquired multiple antibiotic resistance genes. From the article I linked to earlier:

The bacteria are relatively unusual in that they produce extended-spectrum β-lactamases — enzymes that render the bacteria resistant to many different antibiotics. Patients with E. coli infections are not typically treated with antibiotics anyway, because the bacteria are thought to respond to the medication by increasing production of the Shiga toxin, which can lead to the life-threatening complication haemolytic–uremic syndrome. But antibiotic resistance might have helped the bacteria to survive and persist in the environment.

I just found it ironic that farming without antibiotics would have anything to do with a multi-drug resistant pathogen emerging or be the source of the pathogen spreading.

 

[Aepervius]

Strawman fallacy

Where is the evidence that organically grown food is any different to non-organically grown food when it comes to pathogen contamination?

About the same evidence that the food is more nurturing , or healthier on any point than normally grown food : none.

 

[!Kaggen]

SG impressive backpedaling.

 

[!Kaggen]

About the same evidence that the food is more nurturing , or healthier on any point than normally grown food : none.

Strawman cont.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

SG impressive backpedaling.

No, I just didn't get my point across with the short version. I didn't think the irony was that obtuse.

 

[Slimething]

About the same evidence that the food is more nurturing , or healthier on any point than normally grown food : none.

Organic farming is practiced worldwide, mostly by growers in third-world countries who cannot afford to modernize. The food is not "healthier". Quite the contrary. The produce is, at best, second-rate food of uncontrolled safety.

 

[Slimething]

Where is the evidence that organically grown food is any different to non-organically grown food when it comes to pathogen contamination?

Ummm...maybe 33 Germans aren't enough for you? The USDA refuses to publish the fact that the deaths in the USA a few years ago were from an organic lettuce farm. Such is politics.

Sorry, organic fertilizer (manure) carries pathogens. NPK stuff doesn't. Simple stuff. Got it?

 

[Kuko 4000]

Ummm...maybe 33 Germans aren't enough for you? The USDA refuses to publish the fact that the deaths in the USA a few years ago were from an organic lettuce farm. Such is politics.

Sorry, organic fertilizer (manure) carries pathogens. NPK stuff doesn't. Simple stuff. Got it?

Afaik, the organic farm in question didn't use animal based manure, at least that's what they claim. To my knowledge, three of their farmers have gotten sick. With this in mind, what could be the link to organic practices if they have not used animal based manure? To the best of my knowledge, they still haven't traced the reason for the contamination. So in this case, it could be something that has nothing to do with organic practices at all. Interesting to see what comes out of this.

 

[Christian Klippel]

It's now suspected that the root of the problem stems from fermentation tanks used to produce bio gas. They throw plants, slaughterhouse waste, manure, etc. into these tanks to produce gas, to produce energy/electricity in turn. The fermentation remains are then (or better: should then) be heated to above 70°C for a while to kill pathogens.

However, many people use lower temperatures and/or shorter times. After that, those remains are spread onto the fields as "fertilizer". Thing is that you have all kinds of pathogens in these tanks, and no one really know what happens to the bacteria and stuff in there. Maybe they cross and fuse, producing new strains like the EHEC we are currently facing here. At least they suspect that this can happen or is what happened already.

That's "green" technology for you. Here are some links about that topic, albeit all in German, so you may want to use Google translate, Babelfish or somesuch.

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article13412276/Die-vier-wichtigsten-Theorien-zum-EHEC-Ausbruch.html

http://www.ava1.de/botulinum/AVA_chron_Botulismus_Hund_Katze09_05_2011.pdf

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/grobe_fahrlaessigkeit_in_gruen/

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/achtung_bio_gemuese/

The last link is a text from the swiss immunologist Beda M. Stadler, saying in the last paragraph that for more than 15 years he claims that GM food never killed anyone, but that people die every year through the use of organic food.


Greetings,

Chris

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Afaik, the organic farm in question didn't use animal based manure, ...

This strain is not thought to be found in animal guts so far. Much as it is an issue with the 0157 strain, it may not be in this case.

 

[Aepervius]

Strawman cont.

Whether you like it or not, those are point which are brought up or even advertised for.

 

[!Kaggen]

Ummm...maybe 33 Germans aren't enough for you? The USDA refuses to publish the fact that the deaths in the USA a few years ago were from an organic lettuce farm. Such is politics.

CT forum ----> http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=91

Sorry, organic fertilizer (manure) carries pathogens. NPK stuff doesn't. Simple stuff. Got it?

Life carries pathogens. Simple stuff. Got it?

 

[!Kaggen]

Afaik, the organic farm in question didn't use animal based manure, at least that's what they claim. To my knowledge, three of their farmers have gotten sick. With this in mind, what could be the link to organic practices if they have not used animal based manure? To the best of my knowledge, they still haven't traced the reason for the contamination. So in this case, it could be something that has nothing to do with organic practices at all. Interesting to see what comes out of this.

Full marks for avoiding the herd.

 

[!Kaggen]

It's now suspected that the root of the problem stems from fermentation tanks used to produce bio gas. They throw plants, slaughterhouse waste, manure, etc. into these tanks to produce gas, to produce energy/electricity in turn. The fermentation remains are then (or better: should then) be heated to above 70°C for a while to kill pathogens.

However, many people use lower temperatures and/or shorter times. After that, those remains are spread onto the fields as "fertilizer". Thing is that you have all kinds of pathogens in these tanks, and no one really know what happens to the bacteria and stuff in there. Maybe they cross and fuse, producing new strains like the EHEC we are currently facing here. At least they suspect that this can happen or is what happened already.

That's "green" technology for you. Here are some links about that topic, albeit all in German, so you may want to use Google translate, Babelfish or somesuch.

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article13412276/Die-vier-wichtigsten-Theorien-zum-EHEC-Ausbruch.html

http://www.ava1.de/botulinum/AVA_chron_Botulismus_Hund_Katze09_05_2011.pdf

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/grobe_fahrlaessigkeit_in_gruen/

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/achtung_bio_gemuese/

The last link is a text from the swiss immunologist Beda M. Stadler, saying in the last paragraph that for more than 15 years he claims that GM food never killed anyone, but that people die every year through the use of organic food.


Greetings,

Chris

So our swiss immunologist knows something that the CDC doesn't.

To better quantify the impact of foodborne diseases on health in the United States, we compiled and analyzed information from multiple surveillance systems and other sources. We estimate that foodborne diseases cause approximately 76 million illnesses, 325,000 hospitalizations, and 5,000 deaths in the United States each year. Known pathogens account for an estimated 14 million illnesses, 60,000 hospitalizations, and 1,800 deaths. Three pathogens, Salmonella, Listeria, and Toxoplasma, are responsible for 1,500 deaths each year, more than 75% of those caused by known pathogens, while unknown agents account for the remaining 62 million illnesses, 265,000 hospitalizations, and 3,200 deaths. Overall, foodborne diseases appear to cause more illnesses but fewer deaths than previously estimated.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no5/mead.htm

 

[summand]

So our swiss immunologist knows something that the CDC doesn't.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no5/mead.htm

Err. I think you misunderstood.
Beda Stadler (said Swiss immunologist) is talking about genetically modified food(GM food). And his claim is specific to the "genetically modified" part. In Germany, there is a huge hysteria about genetically modified food. And that's what he complains about.

 

[summand]

It's now suspected that the root of the problem stems from fermentation tanks used to produce bio gas.

Interesting. I am currently just skimming over the daily EHEC news, did not hear that. We had discussed that possibility at esowatch a week or so ago but later moved away from it. The guy who brought the theory up will be "glad" to hear it...

 

[Christian Klippel]

Interesting. I am currently just skimming over the daily EHEC news, did not hear that. We had discussed that possibility at esowatch a week or so ago but later moved away from it. The guy who brought the theory up will be "glad" to hear it...

Searching for "ehec biogas" will turn up a lot of hits about that. Of course the association of biogas plant operators are vehemently denying that. After all, they don't want their precious "green energy" stuff tainted. But then, they don't really know what's going on either. Thing is that quite some of these operators do not follow the proper procedures.

And even then, there are no studies or anything about what can actually happen inside these fermentation tanks. Given the high quantitiy of different pathogens, micro-organsisms, etc. that exist in these tanks, it seems at least plausible that something "new" could be created in them. And if so, who can say for sure that these things will in turn not have a resistance against higher temperatures etc.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Slimething]

CT forum ----> http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=91

Thanks for that. Truly underwhelming.

Life carries pathogens. Simple stuff. Got it?

Brilliant! A statement of fact followed by a trivial, irrelevant piece of fluffery. One wonders if you've ever won an argument. Or even stuck around for the interesting part.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The latest edition of Eurosurveillance has an incredible amount of information on the genetics, evolution and potential reservoir of the new E-coli strain.

Just the details alone on the multiple components of this strain are fascinating. The ability to understand new pathogens in such a relatively short time frame exceeds that of the work done on the SARS virus.

Here are some important terminology and notes to help sifting through the articles for people unfamiliar with this field. I ask the mods to allow this extra content as it is intended to be in the public domain and is not intended to be copyright protected.

haemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS) - this is the kidney failure causing deaths
Shiga toxin-producing Escherichia coli (STEC) - this toxin is known to cause HUS
verocytotoxin-producing E. coli (VTEC) - From Wiki:

Verocytotoxin is a Shiga-like toxin produced by the E. coli strain O157, and Shigella type 1.
It causes acute renal failure in children, as a result of Haemolytic uraemic syndrome.
The toxin has two parts. The A part damages gut epithelium through inhibiting its protein synthesis, facilitating entry to the blood stream. The 5 B parts are adapted to inserting the A part into epithelial cells.

enterohaemorrhagic E. coli (EHEC) - different from the e-coli that make up our normal gut bacteria, EHEC invades the intestinal wall and causes bleeding.

There are 3 categories of diarrhea that infections cause:
Common infections merely prevent fluid from being absorbed causing diarrhea.
Infections like cholera actually cause fluid to be excreted into the intestine, so the dehydration is fast and severe.
And then there are the hemorrhagic forms that invade the gut wall and result in bleeding.

the epidemic agent was an STEC strain of rare serotype O104:H4, with production of Shiga toxin 2 [1]. Moreover, it was further atypical in that it lacked the attaching/effacing pathogenicity island of virulent STEC strains, as indicated by negative PCR results for the intimin (eae) and haemolysin (hly) genes

the STEC strain causing the outbreak in Germany is in fact not a typical virulent STEC strain, but instead is a much rarer hybrid pathotype that harbours the phage-mediated Shiga toxin determinant with an enteroaggregative E. coli (EAggEC) background, more precisely described as enteroaggregative, Shiga toxin/verotoxin-producing E. coli (EAggEC STEC/VTEC). Secondly, they also identify in this strain the presence of the receptor for iron-chelating aerobactin, known to be a virulence factor associated with the extra-intestinal E. coli pathotype. Thirdly, they provide new data attesting to a close genetic relatedness of the German outbreak strain to previously described similar EAggEC STEC/VTEC strains. These findings are relevant for identifying the ecological reservoir and evolutionary origin of the epidemic agent, gaining a better understanding of the biological determinants of unusual disease severity and clinical complications seen

So what do the findings tell us about the reservoir and origin of the pathogen causing this outbreak? EAggEC is a common pathogen causing diarrhoea in travellers and persistent diarrhoea in infants and young children living in countries with poor sanitation [6,7]. In contrast to STEC strains that have an animal reservoir, mostly ruminants, EaggEC strains have a human reservoir. Little is known about the pathogenic role and epidemiological features of infections caused by strains of the hybrid EAggEC STEC/VTEC pathotype.

They go on to describe past outbreaks with these genetic components detected, and one past outbreak with the components combined as they are with this strain.

There is a discussion of the sharing of the genetic results among researchers via the Internet and other established pathways. This kind of rapid collaboration moves the science along rapidly seeking the origin and reservoir of new pathogens.

among compared E. coli genome sequences, the genome of the 2011 outbreak strain clustered closest to an EAggEC strain isolated in 2002, with the addition of stx2 and antibiotic resistance genes.

Furthermore, from a public health perspective, it should be emphasised that the microbiology findings and technical recommendation presented were immediately shared by the authors through EU and international public health and food safety laboratory alert networks. This timely dissemination of key data to those who need to know has included posting technical information on the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC)-supported Epidemic Intelligence Information System (EPIS) rapid exchange platform. The EPIS links together all EU/EEA public health laboratories in the Food- and Waterborne Diseases and Zoonoses network (FWD-Net). In parallel, the European Union Reference Laboratory for Verotoxin-producing E. coli rapidly developed a real-time PCR method to detect O104 somatic- and H4 flagellar antigen-associated genes in food samples and shared it with the EU veterinary and food safety reference laboratory network. This approach illustrates how seamless collaboration between food and public health laboratories, as well the power of harnessing advanced molecular typing technology and electronic communication, can build the laboratory capacity needed to respond appropriately to the cross-border spread of a highly virulent food-borne pathogen.

Magical beliefs simply have nothing on science.