"Germany E. coli Outbreak One of Largest on Record"

[Christian Klippel]

It helps when you know what your talking about.

Indeed it does. Nice to see that my point flew right over your head.

Netherlands: 16,158 square miles, maritime climate.

South Africa: 471,443 square miles, temperate climate.

And still the Netherlands clearly produce way more tomatoes per year than South Africa. So, your argument that organic farming is such a big success, by example of growing tomatoes, falls flat on it's face if one compares the numbers and circumstances.

Fun-Facts:

A highly mechanised agricultural sector employs 4% of the labour force but provides large surpluses for the food-processing industry and for exports. ... The Netherlands also exports a quarter of all world tomatoes, and one-third of the world's exports of chilis and cucumbers. The Netherlands also exports one-fifteenth of the world's apples.

And if you are interested, just make a visit to the Netherlands to see how they grow that stuff. Conventional farming, greenhouses and things like hydroponics is big over there, organic farming not so much. That should give you a clue.

And it's a very simple fact: If you do not pour crap (literally) and rotten animal remains over your food sources, you have a much, much lower risk of contamination with nasty things. Simple hygiene 101.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[!Kaggen]

Indeed it does. Nice to see that my point flew right over your head.

Netherlands: 16,158 square miles, maritime climate.

South Africa: 471,443 square miles, temperate climate.

And still the Netherlands clearly produce way more tomatoes per year than South Africa. So, your argument that organic farming is such a big success, by example of growing tomatoes, falls flat on it's face if one compares the numbers and circumstances.

Fun-Facts:



And if you are interested, just make a visit to the Netherlands to see how they grow that stuff. Conventional farming, greenhouses and things like hydroponics is big over there, organic farming not so much. That should give you a clue.

And it's a very simple fact: If you do not pour crap (literally) and rotten animal remains over your food sources, you have a much, much lower risk of contamination with nasty things. Simple hygiene 101.

Greetings,

Chris

You really don't understand farming now do you.

ZZ2 are not organic dude, they use organic methods as well as non- organic. They don't do it for the organic market they do it because they make more $ per cent spent per hectare. This apart from the context of the soil, water and climate which also play a role in crop production apart from fertilizers, pesticides and seeds. You think ZZ2 would be doing something if was not profitable in the mainstream market?

Compare apples with apples and stop creating strawmen.

 

[Christian Klippel]

You really don't understand farming now do you.

ZZ2 are not organic dude, they use organic methods as well as non- organic. They don't do it for the organic market they do it because they make more $ per cent spent per hectare. This apart from the context of the soil, water and climate which also play a role in crop production apart from fertilizers, pesticides and seeds. You think ZZ2 would be doing something if was not profitable in the mainstream market?

Compare apples with apples and stop creating strawmen.

More profitable does not mean a better product. Here in Germany organic foodstuff costs way more than regular stuff. The farmers get more too. But that does not mean that it is more productive (it isn't), or that it makes better use of the farmland (it doesn't), or that it results in a better product (so far, no evidence exists that it is better).

As for the EHEC outbreak in Germany, the current facts are still that it was tracked down to an organic farm as origin, and only that one, while no conventional farmers were affected. In my book that makes organic farming less safe than conventional farming. Heck, it even makes organic farming result in food products that can be lethal.

As a matter of fact, there have been several studies in Germany that found very little difference, if any at all, in the quality (like vitamin contents) of organically vs. conventionally grown foodstuffs. Even worse, in 2007 the "Stiftung Warentest" (an independent quality control institute) found that organic foodstuffs show a higher level of contamination with bacteria than conventional foodstuffs. Especially organic meat, fish and milk products, but vegetables and fruits as well.

See here for that report/study, if you can read German (otherwise Google translate or Babelfish is your friend).

Again, just because something is more profitable does not automatically mean that it is better.

Oh, and did i mention already that the fact, that the EHEC outbreak was tracked down to a single organic farm in Germany, still stands?

Greetings,

Chris

 

[!Kaggen]

More profitable does not mean a better product. Here in Germany organic foodstuff costs way more than regular stuff. The farmers get more too. But that does not mean that it is more productive (it isn't), or that it makes better use of the farmland (it doesn't), or that it results in a better product (so far, no evidence exists that it is better).

As for the EHEC outbreak in Germany, the current facts are still that it was tracked down to an organic farm as origin, and only that one, while no conventional farmers were affected. In my book that makes organic farming less safe than conventional farming. Heck, it even makes organic farming result in food products that can be lethal.

As a matter of fact, there have been several studies in Germany that found very little difference, if any at all, in the quality (like vitamin contents) of organically vs. conventionally grown foodstuffs. Even worse, in 2007 the "Stiftung Warentest" (an independent quality control institute) found that organic foodstuffs show a higher level of contamination with bacteria than conventional foodstuffs. Especially organic meat, fish and milk products, but vegetables and fruits as well.

See here for that report/study, if you can read German (otherwise Google translate or Babelfish is your friend).

Again, just because something is more profitable does not automatically mean that it is better.

Oh, and did i mention already that the fact, that the EHEC outbreak was tracked down to a single organic farm in Germany, still stands?

Greetings,

Chris

Ah so farmers are not supposed be profitable now, they should just maximize production for the good of mankind. Try telling that to any other industry!! Do you support subsidizing farmers then?

Ever heard of correlation not equal to causation?

 

[Christian Klippel]

Ah so farmers are not supposed be profitable now, they should just maximize production for the good of mankind. Try telling that to any other industry!! Do you support subsidizing farmers then?

Ever heard of correlation not equal to causation?

Care to show where i said that? Right, you can't, because i didn't say that.

And you have the audacity to accuse others of creating straw men?

Hahaha ...

Greetings,

Chris

ETA: So, i take it you still have nothing to refute the fact that the EHEC outbreak in Germany originated exclusively at an organic farm?

Tell us, if something bad originates from an organic farm but not from a conventional one, and if higher levels of baceria etc. are found in organic products and not in conventional ones, isn't it true that in such a case organic food can be considered more unsafe than regular food? Get over it. Pouring feces and other crap over food sources is just not that hygienic.

 

[!Kaggen]

Care to show where i said that? Right, you can't, because i didn't say that.

And you have the audacity to accuse others of creating straw men?

Hahaha ...

Greetings,

Chris

ETA: So, i take it you still have nothing to refute the fact that the EHEC outbreak in Germany originated exclusively at an organic farm?

Tell us, if something bad originates from an organic farm but not from a conventional one, and if higher levels of baceria etc. are found in organic products and not in conventional ones, isn't it true that in such a case organic food can be considered more unsafe than regular food? Get over it. Pouring feces and other crap over food sources is just not that hygienic.

When I have time I will reply to your drivel.

 

[Oystein]

...
Tell us, if something bad originates from an organic farm but not from a conventional one, and if higher levels of baceria etc. are found in organic products and not in conventional ones, isn't it true that in such a case organic food can be considered more unsafe than regular food? ...

A sample size of one is almost never statistically significant.

 

[Christian Klippel]

A sample size of one is almost never statistically significant.

True that. But then, as mentioned and linked to already (albeit only in German, i'm sorry), it has been found that organic foodstuffs generally have a higher level of contamination with bacteria and other things, compared to conventionally farmed/raised stuff. And while that was only one link, there are quite some more studies that come to similar results (however, again all in German, since i'm in Germany and thus mostly read German reports about that topic).

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Slimething]

A sample size of one is almost never statistically significant.

Why do you single out CK with that? Perfectly true but you didn't notice that kagen has used that very fallacy, and first? One company hasn't gotten tagged with a predictable outcome of fertilizing with feces so he's arguing it's OK. Color me convinced!

I've been told a story of a speaker at the UN extolling the virtues of organic farming to the dearly assembled. One of the reps from a Third World country remarked that they'd been doing organic farming for millennia and would like to stop. Back-breaking, risky and doesn't feed enough people.

Organic farming means a return to the time when it took one person in three to farm and feed the others. Anyone here want to be a farmer? That's one tough job. Why do you think we now live in a society where it takes less than 1% of the population to feed the rest?

 

[!Kaggen]

A sample size of one is almost never statistically significant.

Glad you noticed

True that. But then, as mentioned and linked to already (albeit only in German, i'm sorry), it has been found that organic foodstuffs generally have a higher level of contamination with bacteria and other things, compared to conventionally farmed/raised stuff. And while that was only one link, there are quite some more studies that come to similar results (however, again all in German, since i'm in Germany and thus mostly read German reports about that topic).

Greetings,

Chris

You let us have those studies when you find them in english.

 

[!Kaggen]

Why do you single out CK with that? Perfectly true but you didn't notice that kagen has used that very fallacy, and first? One company hasn't gotten tagged with a predictable outcome of fertilizing with feces so he's arguing it's OK. Color me convinced!

Its not feces its compost, one day try to learn the difference you might want to start here
http://compost.css.cornell.edu/

Think about all the mushrooms the Dutch grow on "feces" and export to the rest of Europe.

The Dutch mushrooms sector accounts for approximately 5 percent of total value added in Dutch horticulture, representing a production value of more than 300 million euro. About 90 percent of production is destined for export, fresh or processed, making the Netherlands the biggest exporter of mushrooms in Europe.

www.lei.dlo.nl/leichina/files/ab888fcd78766c1473d1dee2299d70f7.pdf

Some more homework for you on mushroom cultivation and composting

www.americanmushroom.org/agaricus.pdf

You eat mushrooms?

I've been told a story of a speaker at the UN extolling the virtues of organic farming to the dearly assembled. One of the reps from a Third World country remarked that they'd been doing organic farming for millennia and would like to stop. Back-breaking, risky and doesn't feed enough people.

Organic farming means a return to the time when it took one person in three to farm and feed the others. Anyone here want to be a farmer? That's one tough job. Why do you think we now live in a society where it takes less than 1% of the population to feed the rest?

You've been told wrong

By 2003, Uganda had the world’s 13th-largest land area under organic agriculture production and the most in Africa. By 2004, Uganda had around 185,000 ha of land under organic farming covering more than 2 per cent of agricultural land, with 45,000 certified farmers. By 2007, 296,203 hectares of land were under organic agricultural production with 206,803 certified farmers. This constitutes an increase of 359 per cent in terms of number of farmers and 60 per cent in terms of acreage, respectively, from 2002 to 2007.

http://www.unep.org/greeneconomy/Su...Uganda/tabid/4655/language/en-US/Default.aspx

 

[Slimething]

Its not feces its compost

E. coli comes from compost, little man? Are you sure about that?

You've been told wrong

Nope. I've been present at some similar exchanges. Most of the Third World is forced to do exactly what you want the rest of us to do. They don't like it. They'd rather be doing things the modern way so their countrymen aren't starving. The non-Luddite way, that is.

You like posting biased opinion pieces to try to paint your picture of the world as any way near achievable or sustainable. Maybe it would be, after a global catastrophe. Here's a little piece written based on fact. Try to digest it.

Listen, you want to go back to 80-hour weeks behind an ox-pulled plow, go ahead. I won't stop you. Leave us to die in our 110+ years under the heavy yoke of modern medicine and agriculture. We'll remember you fondly. Well, maybe not fondly. Well, maybe we won't remember you. Oh, well, there's just so much in pretending.

 

[Christian Klippel]

Glad you noticed



You let us have those studies when you find them in english.

So, just for that you had to wait until you had time to reply to my "drivel", as you said?

But hey, here you go:

http://www.openmarket.org/2011/06/06/e-coli-outbreak-linked-to-organic-farming-again/
(Don't forget to follow the links in that article as well)

http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/fecal-contamination.cfm
(This one is especially funny. See how the pro-organic crowd immediately jumped to conspiracy theories, and completely avoids the point made)

http://www.biofortified.org/2011/05/what-europeans-should-have-read-about-pathogenic-e-coli-in-2007-to-have-helped-avoid-the-current-food-safety-crisis/
(Here again it is shown that organic produce has a higher risk of contamination than conventional produce)

Hey, i tell you a little secret: These are just 3 links from the first page of a quick Google search for "organic farming contamination risk". See, doing a very simple search already produces such results. Of course, one has to be willing to search for that. Something that surely is uncomfortable or hard to do if one fears that the results will probably shatter the own dreams.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[!Kaggen]

Some news

Ten variants of the deadly Escherichia coli strain that hit Germany in May 2011 have been sequenced across the world. The unprecedented level of collaboration across the scientific community should give insight into how the outbreak arose, says a scientist at the Society for General Microbiology's Autumn Conference 2011.

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-crowd-sourcing-coli-o104h4-outbreak.html

 

[Kuko 4000]

What's the latest status on this, anyone? Was this linked to organic farming methods at all?

 

[Kuko 4000]

ETA: So, i take it you still have nothing to refute the fact that the EHEC outbreak in Germany originated exclusively at an organic farm?

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/doc/2390.pdf

ABSTRACT
On 21 May 2011, Germany reported an ongoing outbreak of Shiga-toxin producing Escherichia coli (STEC), serotype O104:H4. From an initial case control study, the outbreak was associated with the consumption of fresh salad vegetables. Subsequent investigations showed that the risk of infection was significantly associated with the consumption of fresh sprouted seeds rather than with other fresh vegetables. A tracing back and tracing forward study showed that all of the clusters for which there was sufficient information, could be attributed to consumption of sprouted seeds from a single sprouted seed producer in Germany. Investigation of the production site showed no evidence of environmental contamination. Employees were found to be infected, but since they had not become ill prior to the outbreak, it was concluded that they were not the source of the food contamination. Hence, contaminated seeds used for the sprout production were the most likely source. Several varieties of seeds were used, and sprouts thereof were sold as a mixture. Subsequently, a cluster of patients with bloody diarrhoea was reported, after having participated in a local event in France on 8 June. Consumption of sprouted seeds was also associated with occurrence of the disease in this cluster. Furthermore, the STEC isolates responsible for the outbreaks in France and Germany were found to be indistinguishable. It was therefore concluded that there was a common source for both outbreaks. A comparison of the back tracing information on the seeds from the French and German outbreaks led to the conclusion that a specific consignment (lot) of fenugreek seeds imported from Egypt was the most likely link between the outbreaks, although it could not be excluded that other lots from the same exporter and importer were also implicated. STEC O104 is a very rare serogroup in humans in the EU and worldwide. Sporadic cases in the EU have been previously linked to travel to North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia. On 26 July, the Robert Koch Institute declared the outbreak finished. A
total of 3911 cases have been reported to the ECDC and WHO, linked to the outbreaks, to date.

© European Food Safety Authority, 2011

So the STEC seeds were contaminated before arriving to the organic farm in Germany, I presume the Egyptian importer was also organic? Anyone have more details on this?