Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[Christopher7]

Most FHV have automatic check valves inside them. Can't flow backwards in them.

That is correct.
Justin has found the flaw in my theory.
Table 5-11 System components WTC 7
Specifies: 25th floor and below
Hose Valves - Automatic pressure reducing - 400psi

Here is a factory-set pressure regulating valve that acts as a check valve, that they may well have used:
http://www.guardianfire.com/products/firehosevalves/zw4000_zurn.html

However,

NCSTAR 1-4B pg 191 [pdf pg 243] Figure B-14
shows the check valves for the main inlets and siamese external hydrants are inside the building. Although there is a lot of debris piled up in front of the west end of WTC 7, there are no reports of holes in the exterior walls below floor 5. There is not a lot of debris on the east side.

 

[Travis]

So what is the point of all this? Even if all this equipment was right there. Even if the FDNY had fresh crews to put on the task of hooking all this up to save WTC7. Why should they?

Should not rescue operations or just a head count to see who is missing take precedent over an unoccupied building?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Issues the debunkees avoid like the plague with stumbling double talk.

99 day fires.

Bush stonewalling the 9/11 investigation.

Disappearance of the 4 tower black boxes.

Confiscation of over 70 Pentagon area security videos.

Release of 5(?) frame Pentagon area security video.

Cheney running war games on, guess what, 9/11.

 

[sylvan8798]

Issues the debunkees avoid like the plague with stumbling double talk.

99 day fires.

So a substance which burns through steel fast enough to stay ahead of a gravitational collapse was present in large enough quantities to burn for 99 days while NOT turning the piles into giant heaps of slag? Wasn't that a bit of overkill? Where was this stuff located that someone thought it would be needed but it wasn't? Did "they" just hose it on or what?

Do truthers know anything about the properties of these mystery substances they believe in?

Don't answer that.

 

[triforcharity]

That is correct.
Justin has found the flaw in my theory.
Table 5-11 System components WTC 7
Specifies: 25th floor and below
Hose Valves - Automatic pressure reducing - 400psi

Here is a factory-set pressure regulating valve that acts as a check valve, that they may well have used:
http://www.guardianfire.com/products/firehosevalves/zw4000_zurn.html

However,

NCSTAR 1-4B pg 191 [pdf pg 243] Figure B-14
shows the check valves for the main inlets and siamese external hydrants are inside the building. Although there is a lot of debris piled up in front of the west end of WTC 7, there are no reports of holes in the exterior walls below floor 5. There is not a lot of debris on the east side.

You still haven't figured out how to isolate the standpipe system from the damaged sprinkler system, have you?

 

[Travis]

Issues the debunkees avoid like the plague with stumbling double talk.

99 day fires.

What is left to explain to you on this? Is it our fault if you refuse to believe in reality?

Bush stonewalling the 9/11 investigation.

That he didn't want the Commission is not in dispute. That he did not interfere with any of the other way more important investigations is also not in dispute. What is in dispute is the relevance of what little "stonewalling" there was.

Disappearance of the 4 tower black boxes.

Already explained. They were smashed into little unrecognizable bits.

Confiscation of over 70 Pentagon area security videos.

Never happened. Several videos were briefly taken in as evidence. They have been released.

Release of 5(?) frame Pentagon area security video.

I'm not even sure what it is about this that you think is in contention.

Cheney running war games on, guess what, 9/11.

The military runs war games all the time. It's what they do. And Cheney had nothing to do with them as far as I can remember.

 

[beachnut]

There you go. The WTC7 fires were low intensity yet the building was unstable on the verge of collapse?

Why was it unstable and on the verge of collapse?

You are spreading lies, the fires were not low intensity. Why do you lie about 911? Do you understand you are spreading idiotic lies?

 

[Christopher7]

You still haven't figured out how to isolate the standpipe system from the damaged sprinkler system, have you?

Isolate the damaged area by shutting of riser 1.

The report just says the risers are in janitors closets and wet columns and does not show which riser supplied what sprinklers so the issue is in doubt.

As to the other issue about water availability. Here is just a partial list. See NCSTAR 1-8 pg 195 - 234 for the complete list. There was no shortage of water to fight the fires in WTC 7.

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 205 [pdf pg 259]
9:10 10-84 Engine 240, (At staging area West and Albany Streets when WTC 2 collapsed, stretch hoselines, relay water from Marine 1, extinguished fire at 90 West Street.)

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 205 [pdf pg 259]
9:17 Engine 286/10 (initially out of service, back in service at 0917, relocated to E-10, arrived at WTC 1 when it collapsed, relayed water from Marine 1, fought fires from upper floors of 85 West street to 90 West street)

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 212 [pdf pg 266]
9:27 Engine 311 (stretches lines from Marine 1 to 85 West Street, from inside of 85 West Street extinguishes fires on roof of 90 west Street)

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 216 [pdf pg 270]
9:40 Engine 162 (post collapse operations WTC 1 and WTC 2,operations at WTC 7, hydrant at Church and Vesey Streets, stretched line to WTC 7)

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 217 [pdf pg 271]
9:41 Engine 219 (post collapse operations, established water supply at West and Liberty Streets, stretched hose lines and extinguished ground level fires)

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 217 [pdf pg 271]
9:43:04 10-84 Engine 220, (Command post West and Liberty Streets, approaching WTC 2 at collapse, extinguish fire on 9th floor of Gateway Plaza, assisted with water relay from Marine 1 to Vesey and West streets)

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 222 [pdf pg 276]
9:55 Engine 246/244 (post collapse operations 5 WTC, hydrant hookup on Broadway and Church Streets, water relay to E 503, operated hose line on street level fires at Church and Liberty Streets)
Engine 284/207 (post collapse operations, hose line stretch from Marine 1 to Vesey Street)

9:59 a.m. WTC 2 collapsed

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 223 [pdf pg 277]
9:59:51 Engine 271/6 (left Command Post at West and Vesey Streets when WTC 1 collapsed, supplied water to standpipe Siamese at Verizon Building, extinguished fires around Verizon bldg.)

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 224 [pdf pg 278]
10:06 Engine 160 (post collapse operations, supplied water to Tower Ladders operation on WTC 7

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 224 [pdf pg 278]
10:06 Ladder 78 (post collapse operations, Command Post at Broadway and Vesey Streets, extinguish street level fires on Broadway, supply water to Tower Ladder 15 on Liberty Street)

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 225 [pdf pg 279]
10:07:39 10-84 Engine 284, (post collapse operations, hose line stretch from Marine 1 to Vesey street)


NCSTAR 1-8 pg 226 [pdf pg 280]
10:12: Engine 518 (post collapse operations, stretched hose lines and operated in WTC 7)

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 226 [pdf pg 280]
10:15 Engine 236/15 (responding to scene when WTC 1 collapse, stretched handlines from building standpipes and extinguished street level fires)

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 228 [pdf pg 282]
10:24 Engine 247 (Command Post at Broadway and Vesey Streets, post collapse operations, hydrant hookup and supply to hoselines to Tower Ladders)
Engine 318/279 (post collapse operations, Staging area at West and Chambers Streets, hose stretch from Marine 1 to Vesey street)

10:29 a.m. WTC 1 collapse

NCSTAR 1-8 pg 228 [pdf pg 282]
10:30:08 10-84 , Engine 328/E 279 (post collapse operations, Staging area at West and Chambers Streets, hose stretch from Marine 1 to Vesey Street)

[FONT=&quot]NCSTAR 1-8 pg 229 [pdf pg 283]
10:38:32 10-84 , Engine 309 /E33, (reported to Command Post at West and Liberty streets, stretched 3 ½ inch hoselines from command post to Marine Companies at pier, stretched supply lines from Marine 2 to E 209 E 279, stretched supply lines to manifolds and Tower Ladders, searched collapse area)

[/FONT]

 

[leftysergeant]

You are spreading lies, the fires were not low intensity. Why do you lie about 911? Do you understand you are spreading idiotic lies?

They were of low insensity compared to WTC 6. Hot enough to weaken the structure, but not likely to erupt and scatter noxious chemicals like WTC 6.

WTC 6 was hot enough to melt brass and lead.

 

[Oystein]

Spot on!

The Senior Fire fighter called the shot on the day. His decision. Correct decision. Not subject to post event alteration. Some folks show little understanding of emergency management basics at the command level.

This "discussion" is nothing more than a successful derail by C7 with CM tagging along in his shadow.

This. Still. Page after page after page. Still.
Excellent senior desaster management professionals made excellent decisions on the day, on the spot, based on information available at that very time, and none other.

 

[leftysergeant]

Hi jaydeehess. Long time no hear from.

We have had this discussion before and you know that:
Hayden did NOT say the building was leaning.
There is no mention of a surveyor much less a statement by one.
No firefighters at the scene said the building was leaning.
NIST did not say the building was leaning.
WTC 7 was NOT leaning.

Of course not. It was BULGING AND CREAKING. Same difference, from a fire fighter's point of view.

The building was not in danger of collapsing but that's not the point of this debate.

Of course not. What matters is that, by those standards which the fire department applies, the building no longer warranted the waste of resources.

This debate is about the NIST claim that no water was available to fight the fires in WTC 7

It was still in limited supply. There was the possibility of additional fires breaking out where they still did not have hydrant pressure. Some water had to be held in reserve for that.

You have to prioritized like that sometimes. You have only a finite amount of water, and unknown demands for water. You don't waste it on a lost cause.

ETA: Of course the damaged area was creaking but the vierendeel action of the perimeter moment frame redistributed the loads.

So what? The towers weren't supposed to collapse either. The fire department was not in a position to consider such things in a timely manner. They just had to go by field expedient rules, like, if a building is damaged and making noises, assume it is coming down.

 

[Christopher7]

They were of low insensity compared to WTC 6. Hot enough to weaken the structure,

Actually, no. The frame had adequate fire protection and the fire that supposedly started the collapse had burned out over an hour earlier and no, thermal contraction has never been a problem in a high rise [other than second rate structures in third world countries], your ubiquitous insulting retorts notwithstanding.

but not likely to erupt and scatter noxious chemicals like WTC 6.

WTC 6 was hot enough to melt brass and lead

and iron. Can you spell nano-thermite?

Failing to put out the two relatively small fires in WTC 7 forced everyone to STOP rescue and just wait 3 hours. How many people died because of that?

I don't blame the firefighters. I think they were told by the PTB to not fight it. I lived in NY for a while and I know what the real deal is so don't tell me that isn't how it works. Can you spell "Serpico" ?

 

[NoahFence]

Issues the debunkees avoid like the plague with stumbling double talk.

99 day fires.

Bush stonewalling the 9/11 investigation.

Disappearance of the 4 tower black boxes.

Confiscation of over 70 Pentagon area security videos.

Release of 5(?) frame Pentagon area security video.

Cheney running war games on, guess what, 9/11.

Those have all been answered, get a new hobby.

 

[NoahFence]

Actually, no. The frame had adequate fire protection and the fire that supposedly started the collapse had burned out over an hour earlier and no, thermal contraction has never been a problem in a high rise [other than second rate structures in third world countries], your ubiquitous insulting retorts notwithstanding.

and iron. Can you spell nano-thermite?

Failing to put out the two relatively small fires in WTC 7 forced everyone to STOP rescue and just wait 3 hours. How many people died because of that?

I don't blame the firefighters. I think they were told by the PTB to not fight it. I lived in NY for a while and I know what the real deal is so don't tell me that isn't how it works. Can you spell "Serpico" ?

Have you figured out why they couldn't get water to WTC 7 yet?

 

[Christopher7]

Of course not. It was BULGING AND CREAKING. Same difference, from a fire fighter's point of view.

I quite disagree. Leaning is a lot more serious. It means every column in the building is bending to one side.

Of course not. What matters is that, by those standards which the fire department applies, the building no longer warranted the waste of resources.

They were not short on resources. Everyone came from all five boroughs and Jersey. Read the list of calls on pages 195 - 234 of NCSTAR 1-8,

It was still in limited supply. There was the possibility of additional fires breaking out where they still did not have hydrant pressure. Some water had to be held in reserve for that. You have to prioritized like that sometimes. You have only a finite amount of water, and unknown demands for water. You don't waste it on a lost cause.

Again. Read 1-8. They had hydrant pressure all around just a block away and they were running lines to Marine 1 as early as 9:10 a.m.

So what? The towers weren't supposed to collapse either. The fire department was not in a position to consider such things in a timely manner. They just had to go by field expedient rules, like, if a building is damaged and making noises, assume it is coming down.

If that's what happened [but I doubt it] it would be understandable under the circumstances.

 

[NoahFence]

I quite disagree. Leaning is a lot more serious. It means every column in the building is bending to one side.

Thankfully you live in a fantasy world. In your world, if it's leaning, hell no I'm not sending anybody in there. But if it's creaking and bulging? Sure - go in there and fight a fire in a building unoccupied. Watch it collapse and kill - how many? 100? For a useless building? Thank GOD you're a failed carpenter and don't have any actual authority.

They were not short on resources. Everyone came from all five boroughs and Jersey

At least you finally admit you need actual people to fight fires. Having said that, "Everyone" was already busy. Do you have photographs or video of firefighters standing there with their hands in their pockets, with nothing to do?

Read 1-8. They had hydrant pressure all around just a block away and they were running lines to Marine 1 as early as 9:10 a.m.

To fight fires elsewhere. How is it even possible this hasn't got through your thick skull yet?

If that's what happened [but I doubt it] it would be understandable under the circumstances.

That's exactly what happened. What's more - you know it.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Issues the debunkees avoid like the plague with stumbling double talk.

Yes, we never give straightforward, simple explanations of these things, do we?

99 day fires.

Fires need oxygen to burn. Underground fires need air from the surface, that can only get in slowly. If the oxygen can only get in slowly, then the fires burn slowly.

Bush stonewalling the 9/11 investigation.

He didn't stonewall the investigation. He stonewalled against allowing a group of politicians to look at the results of the investigation and decide what went wrong. This was because, most likely, he thought he'd be crucified for screwing up so badly.

Disappearance of the 4 tower black boxes.

Crushed under tens of thousands of tons of tons of rubble, then cooked for 99 days in those fires you mentioned. Some liar made up a fairy story about finding them, which you swallowed hook, line and sinker even though a twelve-year-old can see that it didn't make sense.

Confiscation of over 70 Pentagon area security videos.

This was by the people doing the investigation that you seem to think didn't start for over a year. They took away the videos so they could watch them and find out what happened. That's what people do in an investigation.

Release of 5(?) frame Pentagon area security video.

Doesn't even make sense. If you mean the impact video, they released the frames that showed the impact. The rest was a bit boring because nothing much happens.

Cheney running war games on, guess what, 9/11.

Cheney wasn't running them, that's just a lie conspiracy theorists like to tell. And armed forces run war games all the time when they're not busy with actual wars; they don't have a lot else to do but training and exercises.

But all my answers are such stumbling double talk, who can tell what I really mean?

Dave

 

[funk de fino]

Actually, no. The frame had adequate fire protection and the fire that supposedly started the collapse had burned out over an hour earlier and no, thermal contraction has never been a problem in a high rise [other than second rate structures in third world countries], your ubiquitous insulting retorts notwithstanding.

and iron. Can you spell nano-thermite?

Failing to put out the two relatively small fires in WTC 7 forced everyone to STOP rescue and just wait 3 hours. How many people died because of that?

I don't blame the firefighters. I think they were told by the PTB to not fight it. I lived in NY for a while and I know what the real deal is so don't tell me that isn't how it works. Can you spell "Serpico" ?

This has got to be the biggest nonsense I have ever seen you post. And thats saying something.

 

[leftysergeant]

Actually, no. The frame had adequate fire protection and the fire that supposedly started the collapse had burned out over an hour earlier...

Says what expert in fire science?

...and iron.

No.

Can you spell nano-thermite?

********.

Failing to put out the two relatively small fires in WTC 7 forced everyone to STOP rescue and just wait 3 hours. How many people died because of that?

Not a damned one.

I don't blame the firefighters. I think they were told by the PTB to not fight it. I lived in NY for a while and I know what the real deal is so don't tell me that isn't how it works. Can you spell "Serpico" ?

That crap again? Dying men are not going to blurt out that there was something fishy going on? Real men are going to back down to some dirt bag like Rotten Rudy and keep his secret?

 

[Christopher7]

Says what expert in fire science?

Says anyone who can read.
Around 4:45 p.m., a photograph showed fires Floors 7, 8, 9, and 11 near the middle of the north face; Floor 12 was burned out by this time.