Lamont blames Scottish schools for sectarianism.

[dafydd]

My childhood was in Motherwell and Wishaw.
Now, as it happens, I was an atheist by the time I was seven, though I doubt I knew the word. Religion was something I never took seriously.
But. The first time I was attacked and thumped in the street I was about five. A bunch of RC kids from the tenement up the hill from mine. Second time, I was maybe eight. We had moved to the new housing estate in Coltness by then. Alone, as usual, I was accosted by several Catholic kids and punched and kicked because I didn't support Celtic. I didn't support anybody. I never took football seriously either.
Although I regularly played with a mixed group of Catholic and Protestant kids at home, we went to separate schools. Ironically, because of the timing of my family's arrival in a large new housing estate, I actually went to a different primary school even from the other non-RC kids around.
When at secondary school, I had to pass the local RC high school which lay between my home and school. I was in numeroius fights as a result.

It was a simple fact of life that children (and adults, but who cared about them?) came in two types, Prods and Fenians.
The other side didn't wash.

Now, I had NO religious affiliation. After I was old enough to tell my folks I wanted no part of bible class, I never darkened a church door and have never been a member of any religious organisation - but in Scotland I'm still a Prod. There is no option.

Anyone who thinks this does not contribute to the sort of sectarianism we have seen flare up this past year is not fit to be an MSP.
Frankly, they should have their driving licence , voter status and Mickey Mouse Club membership revoked and be smacked over the head with a dimwit stick to see if any sense can be knocked into them. This is political correctness taken to insane levels.

Fenians,I haven't heard that word for years. What a load of nonsense it all was. I'm glad that I'm out of it.

 

[Rolfe]

Anyone who thinks this does not contribute to the sort of sectarianism we have seen flare up this past year is not fit to be an MSP.
Frankly, they should have their driving licence , voter status and Mickey Mouse Club membership revoked and be smacked over the head with a dimwit stick to see if any sense can be knocked into them. This is political correctness taken to insane levels.

Oh sure. Though if you remember, you spent a short while sharing the premises of my primary school while wearing a different uniform. I seem to recall several calls to arms purely on that account, even though there were no rosaries involved on either side.... Bottom line, kids are vile.

I think the senior politicians, the officebearers in the SNP, do realise it. The accusation "they'd close the catholic schools" is not an entirely empty one. I think there are a lot of people who would dearly love to do exactly that, for just the reasons you propose.

The problem is, it's a huge vote-loser. Electoral suicide is in nobody's interests.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

What a strange country you people live in. We have various religiously denominational schools here in the US, and we don't have any sectarian strife because of it. Of course, we also don't have your bloody history of religious conflict. Or your state religion. Or your soccer (or, as you like to call it, "football") hooligans.

It's bizarroland, believe me.

I wish I'd learned the oboe.

Rolfe.

 

[kingstuart]

Is there Catholic and Protestant troubles in England or Wales? If not, I too blame the Scottish.

 

[Rolfe]

It's an Irish thing we sort of imported.... Pale imitation of the Falls Road....

Oddly, there is far more actual anti-catholic legislation in England than in Scotland. But they don't have the sectarian thing because they didn't have the same immigration thing at the time of the Potato Famine, I believe.

Rolfe.

 

[kingstuart]

It's an Irish thing we sort of imported....

Oddly, there is far more actual anti-catholic legislation in England than in Scotland. But they don't have the sectarian thing because they didn't have the same immigration thing at the time of the Potato Famine, I believe.

Rolfe.

Catholics are quite well represented in the North West of England; Liverpool in particular.

 

[geni]

What a strange country you people live in. We have various religiously denominational schools here in the US, and we don't have any sectarian strife because of it. Of course, we also don't have your bloody history of religious conflict. Or your state religion.

Except the US only figured out that catholics were just another bunch of white people in the 1960s. And thats despite the fact you have so many more distractions (colour being the main one though).

Or your soccer (or, as you like to call it, "football") hooligans.

Indeed historicaly that has been an english centric problem.

 

[geni]

Not mentioned in the OP:



The problem, it seems, isn't "sectarianism", but rather "football hooliganism between fans of rival sports teams".

Doubtful. It's not playing out like normal football hooliganism and in any case the police can largely cope with that. While a few clubs still have an unreconstructed neanderthal element organised football violence is increasingly uncommon these days.

ETA: I mean, imagine the era of tolerance and cooperation he'd usher in, if he proposed abolishing football teams!

Weeeeell the current imballance towards the old firm probably doesn't help matters.

 

[geni]

I feel Lamont's point is a no brainer and I'm disgusted by the apparently horrified response of his fellow "pairliamentarians", who seem to feel any criticism of religious meddling in education is on a moral par with holocaust denial, paedophilia or supporting Partick Thistle.
Even the tone of BBC Scotland's evening report seemed to suggest that in stating the blindingly obvious, Lamont had farted in the bath.

Well not everyone as this is what they are actualy trying to do in Oldham:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article7100438.ece

 

[theprestige]

It's not caused purely by religion, but there is no denying that religion helps perpetuate it by assigning labels and pointless customs to each group.

I see your "religion helps perpetuate it by assigning labels and pointless customs to each group" and raise you "sports rivalries help perpetuate it etc." Like I said: You blame religious schooling, you should probably blame football teams as well. Talk about labels and pointless customs!

Anyway, as Zig pointed out, America is wall-to-wall with both religious sectarianism and die-hard sports rivalries. And yet there seems to be comparatively little sports- or Catholic school-inspired sectarian violence in the US.

Perhaps the recent unpleasantness in Scotland has less to do with sports or Catholic schools, and more to do with, well, Scots?

 

[geni]

Anyway, as Zig pointed out, America is wall-to-wall with both religious sectarianism and die-hard sports rivalries. And yet there seems to be comparatively little sports- or Catholic school-inspired sectarian violence in the US.

You missed the KKK's anti catholic position I take it?

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

You missed the KKK's anti catholic position I take it?

Now, now. theprestige clearly knows more about it than anyone who actually lives or has lived in the country. Obviously the football clubs gave rise to the religious conflict, not the other way round.

 

[Captain_Snort]

I went to Forrester in Edinburgh, a non denominational school. Next door was St.Augustines, a roman catholic school. They had to wear uniform and be smart, for us it was optional as several of the estates that Forrester drew from had high levels of poverty and it could not simply be afforded (or some such rubbish).

We had great rivalry with St. Augustines, Played Rugby against them for PE, they used our sports hall, we used their swimming pool. Every now and then violence would erupt, someone from our place got stabbed, someone stabbed one of them, buses got smashed up, a car or two overturned. But the one thing that was not evident was a sectarian slant. Just two secondary schools with strong rivalry.

My point is, it is not such a big problem outside the West / Glasgow part of Scotland, and especially Rangers and Celtic, who stood by the sectarian signing policies for years, I even remember Mo Johnstone being booed at Ibrox. I now live in Glasgow, the vast majority of people do not care, you get the odd idiot in a pub who will start singing the sash, or shouting "Tiochfaidh ar la". Generally the older generation, in my experience a bit dim or drunk, and an extension of the 90 minute bigotry. I love pointing out that the Rangers beloved King Billy was the one that essentially ordered the Glencoe Massacre and that the Pope send congratulations after he won the Battle of the Boyne. As I said, dim, your sectarian will not know his history, just what is convenient.

Anyway, after rambling, my point is, it is a lot less than it used to be thanks to the two main clubs on either side of the divide putting effort into stopping bigotry. It is ignorance and a herd mentality that keeps it going.

 

[Blue Bubble]

I went to Forrester in Edinburgh, a non denominational school. Next door was St.Augustines, a roman catholic school. They had to wear uniform and be smart, for us it was optional as several of the estates that Forrester drew from had high levels of poverty and it could not simply be afforded (or some such rubbish).

... snip ...

That's interesting, Captain Snort. I remember when Forrester was built. An older brother of mine went there, along with most of the kids in the area of high level poverty I was born and grew up in (Broomhouse).

And just to add, this thread brings back memories of the lunacy of the school segregation inflicted upon us. I was a bit luckier than some; I never experienced any of the beatings or fights. I have never been anything other than atheist (similar to Soapy Sam's claim), and I've always had friends who went to the "other" schools. In fact, it was, funnily enough, (playing) football that kept us together. I bet many of my fellow Scots of a similar age will remember fondly the football games that would start at 10 in the morning and go on continuously until about 11 at night.

 

[dafydd]

That's interesting, Captain Snort. I remember when Forrester was built. An older brother of mine went there, along with most of the kids in the area of high level poverty I was born and grew up in (Broomhouse).

And just to add, this thread brings back memories of the lunacy of the school segregation inflicted upon us. I was a bit luckier than some; I never experienced any of the beatings or fights. I have never been anything other than atheist (similar to Soapy Sam's claim), and I've always had friends who went to the "other" schools. In fact, it was, funnily enough, (playing) football that kept us together. I bet many of my fellow Scots of a similar age will remember fondly the football games that would start at 10 in the morning and go on continuously until about 11 at night.

We had long games of marbles,played on the stank.

 

[dafydd]

Now, now. theprestige clearly knows more about it than anyone who actually lives or has lived in the country. Obviously the football clubs gave rise to the religious conflict, not the other way round.

It stems from the English importing Scots into Ulster. This was going on before football clubs were invented.

 

[Captain_Snort]

Well, they knocked Forries down last year, and built a new one under the incredibly expensive PFI scheme. Joint campus with Auggies.

Should be fun and games.

 

[Soapy Sam]

You missed the KKK's anti catholic position I take it?

I understand the KKK was strongly influenced by Scottish Freemasonry.
Although a Jacobite and therefore Catholic organisation in the 18th century, Freemasonry in Scotland became strongly Presbyterian Protestant in the 19th century and still is today.

 

[zooterkin]

There's no such thing as a "Protestant" school, just a non-denominational one.

Do you mean specifically in Glasgow, or Scotland? South of the border there certainly are Protestant schools; I went to a Church of England grammar school, and my children went to a C of E primary school (because it was the village school, not because of the church affiliation).

It's an Irish thing we sort of imported.... Pale imitation of the Falls Road....

Oddly, there is far more actual anti-catholic legislation in England than in Scotland. But they don't have the sectarian thing because they didn't have the same immigration thing at the time of the Potato Famine, I believe.

Rolfe.

I think you're right, it comes down to numbers. In the south of England, I'm not aware of much anti-Catholicism, and in fifty years I've had very few knowing contacts with Catholics at all. My best friend at Junior school was Scottish, and told me I should support Celtic, so looking back I guess he was probably Catholic, though that never came up. I believe one of my grandmothers was originally Catholic, but left the church because she married a divorced man; the only reason I know this is that my mother remembers her mother having arguments with the local priest. I've been to the local Catholic church here twice, for the baptism of the children of a friend of the family. On the other hand, both my parents taught at Catholic schools at different times, and my sister currently works at one.

 

[funk de fino]

A few folks seem to be looking at this purely from an anti Catholic stance. It's not, its both ways. Both sides are morons.