• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Lamont blames Scottish schools for sectarianism.

Soapy Sam

Penultimate Amazing
S
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
28,769
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-13891033

Now , I'm opposed to religious schools of any sort, so it will surprise nobody that I think Lamont has simply stated the obvious truth.

'He said segregating children in Catholic and non-denominational schools contributed to the problem.
The Catholic Church branded the comments "offensive" and "malicious".
Community Safety minister Roseanna Cunningham also attacked Mr Lamont's remarks, describing them as an "astonishing diatribe".'

I feel Lamont's point is a no brainer and I'm disgusted by the apparently horrified response of his fellow "pairliamentarians", who seem to feel any criticism of religious meddling in education is on a moral par with holocaust denial, paedophilia or supporting Partick Thistle.
Even the tone of BBC Scotland's evening report seemed to suggest that in stating the blindingly obvious, Lamont had farted in the bath.

Can anyone be so stupidly blind as to fail to see the obvious fact that telling 5 year old kids that they are different from the kids across the street just may lead them to believe it?
 
Not mentioned in the OP:

His comments came as MSPs backed the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Bill at its first vote.

The bill aims to stamp out abusive behaviour from football fans whether they are watching matches in a stadium, in the pub or commenting online.

The legislation, which ministers now want to see passed by the end of the year, would raise the maximum jail term from six months to five years.

It came in the wake of several high-profile football-related incidents.

These include trouble at Rangers/Celtic games and the sending of suspected bombs to Celtic manager Neil Lennon and two other high-profile supporters of the club.
Click to expand...

The problem, it seems, isn't "sectarianism", but rather "football hooliganism between fans of rival sports teams".

I have a hard time imagining any amount of Catholic-school sectarianism in Scotland, that isn't trumped in spades by football-team sectarianism in Scotland.

Trying to portray football hooliganism as some sort of religion-inspired persecution is indeed offensive.

ETA: I mean, imagine the era of tolerance and cooperation he'd usher in, if he proposed abolishing football teams!
 
Last edited:
On principle I agree with Soapy Sam. It seems like a no-brainer. But then there are reasons why I have to consider it might not be that simple.

On a personal note, my own father was never at a segregated school. The island was too damn small. He was probably the most knee-jerk anti-Catholic person I ever knew. When I acquired a French pen pal through my school, he took me aside and asked me seriously if I realised that this girl, being French, was almost certainly Catholic. (Even at the age of twelve, and having been brought up in segregated schools in north Lanarkshire, I laughed in his face.)

More generally, I think the schools are a secondary factor to the home life - the knee-jerk bigotry and the Orange Walks (was I the only kid in north Lanarkshire to learn the flute who thought you sat down to play the thing?) and the bloody football.

And more specifically, consider the situation in the SNP. Labour have been characterising the SNP as anti-Catholic for generations. It's an article of faith. Most of their campaigning in north Lanarkshire could at times be boiled down to "don't vote SNP, they'll close the Catholic schools!" When my mother admitted to a neighbour in 1992 that she voted SNP, the horrified reply was exactly that. Why the neighbour thought my mother was going to care if they closed the Catholic schools was never explained.

Within the SNP, I had little clue for years whether my friends were Catholic or Protestant. The issue just didn't come up. Until someone raised the issue of segregated education. Now that was an education. Intelligent, rational, thinking people who had never even bothered to mention religion for the past five years suddenly turned into wildcats, defending their treasured segregated schools with tooth and claw.

It's dynamite. Then and now, the SNP can't touch it.

Rolfe.
 
I can speak from experience. I spent the first ten years of my life in Glasgow. I went to a Protestant school,lived in a Protestant area,never came into contact with Catholics except to trade insults with Catholic kids queuing up outside the church which was opposite our playground,and sometimes to have a scrap with them if we bumped into a gang. I was raised to hate Catholics. That's the way it was in Glasgow in the 1950's. I haven't been back since 1969 but my relations there still think that Catholics are the spawn of the Devil and all support the Glasgow Rangers. I don't hate anyone. Lamont has a point,I know what he is talking about.
 
Rolfe said:
On principle I agree with Soapy Sam. It seems like a no-brainer. But then there are reasons why I have to consider it might not be that simple.

On a personal note, my own father was never at a segregated school. The island was too damn small. He was probably the most knee-jerk anti-Catholic person I ever knew. When I acquired a French pen pal through my school, he took me aside and asked me seriously if I realised that this girl, being French, was almost certainly Catholic. (Even at the age of twelve, and having been brought up in segregated schools in north Lanarkshire, I laughed in his face.)

More generally, I think the schools are a secondary factor to the home life - the knee-jerk bigotry and the Orange Walks (was I the only kid in north Lanarkshire to learn the flute who thought you sat down to play the thing?) and the bloody football.

And more specifically, consider the situation in the SNP. Labour have been characterising the SNP as anti-Catholic for generations. It's an article of faith. Most of their campaigning in north Lanarkshire could at times be boiled down to "don't vote SNP, they'll close the Catholic schools!" When my mother admitted to a neighbour in 1992 that she voted SNP, the horrified reply was exactly that. Why the neighbour thought my mother was going to care if they closed the Catholic schools was never explained.

Within the SNP, I had little clue for years whether my friends were Catholic or Protestant. The issue just didn't come up. Until someone raised the issue of segregated education. Now that was an education. Intelligent, rational, thinking people who had never even bothered to mention religion for the past five years suddenly turned into wildcats, defending their treasured segregated schools with tooth and claw.

It's dynamite. Then and now, the SNP can't touch it.

Rolfe.
Click to expand...

North Lanarkshire? Where? I was raised in Old Cambuslang.
 
I agreed with Soapy Sam; the separation of schools into Non-dem and Catholic has served only to further reinforce hundred-year old barriers between the two communities.

FWIW, where I come from in the northwest of the country has a substantial "indigenous" Catholic community (i.e. not related to 19th century Irish immigration) and no substantive separating of schooling. I'm told that the rather unfortunate views of some sections of the west of Scotland came as quite a shock to my parents when they moved down there.
 
I don't think religious schools are the cause of the problem.

But you can bet they are part of the cause.

There's obviously a lot to it, it's a complex situation, and being an atheist from the south west of England, I am in no way qualified to comment of the reality of life in these communities.

While I am no great fan of John Lamont, he is speaking a lot of sense, and I really can't see how anyone can disagree with his statement without taking it widely out of context.

Segregation of children along religious lines for education is clearly going to have a reinforcing effect on the wider sectarian influences. School may not be the only problem, but they are certainly part of it, and need to be addressed.

ETA: in case it's useful - link to the text of the debate. John Lamont's section starts at 10:00 under the heading 'Offensive Behaviour at Football ... Stage 1'
 
Last edited:
dafydd said:
I can speak from experience. I spent the first ten years of my life in Glasgow. I went to a Protestant school,lived in a Protestant area,never came into contact with Catholics except to trade insults with Catholic kids queuing up outside the church which was opposite our playground,and sometimes to have a scrap with them if we bumped into a gang. I was raised to hate Catholics. That's the way it was in Glasgow in the 1950's. I haven't been back since 1969 but my relations there still think that Catholics are the spawn of the Devil and all support the Glasgow Rangers. I don't hate anyone. Lamont has a point,I know what he is talking about.
Click to expand...


There's no such thing as a "Protestant" school, just a non-denominational one. And I thought Catholics were supposed to support the Celtic? (And Hibs.)

Rolfe.
 
theprestige said:
Not mentioned in the OP:



The problem, it seems, isn't "sectarianism", but rather "football hooliganism between fans of rival sports teams".

I have a hard time imagining any amount of Catholic-school sectarianism in Scotland, that isn't trumped in spades by football-team sectarianism in Scotland.

Trying to portray football hooliganism as some sort of religion-inspired persecution is indeed offensive.
Click to expand...

If you're having a hard time imagining violence that runs across religious lines between different denominations of christianity, read some books. Or zoom out of scotland on google maps and then zoom back in a few hundred miles southwest at northern island and look at the violence in belfast over the last few days.

It's not caused purely by religion, but there is no denying that religion helps perpetuate it by assigning labels and pointless customs to each group.
 
Rolfe said:
There's no such thing as a "Protestant" school, just a non-denominational one. And I thought Catholics were supposed to support the Celtic? (And Hibs.)

Rolfe.
Click to expand...

I went to Bushy Hill,Cambuslang,in the 1950's and it was a 100 percent Protestant school,maybe not officially,but it was. The Catholic church was opposite the school and when we saw the kids lining up to go inside there were all sorts of rumours flying round the playground. They eat babies in there. They drink blood. They eat cats. I was six years old at the time. We lived in Park street,a Protestant street. Some Catholic kids once put me in a dustbin and rolled me down a hill. My mistake,I meant that all my relatives up there support Rangers,I should have stated it more clearly.
 
Last edited:
dafydd said:
I went to Bushy Hill,Cambuslang,in the 1950's and it was a 100 percent Protestant school,maybe not officially,but it was.
Click to expand...


Bolded the salient point.

There are (non-denominational) schools, and there are "catholic" schools.

Of course, if the community is entirely two-tone, then it rather comes to the same thing....

Rolfe.
 
My experience as well. In Rothesay we had a Catholic and "non-denominational" school. We had fights with the kids from the catholic school because that's the way kids are, as has been said. There was only one secondary school and suddenly I had a catholic best friend.
 
My childhood was in Motherwell and Wishaw.
Now, as it happens, I was an atheist by the time I was seven, though I doubt I knew the word. Religion was something I never took seriously.
But. The first time I was attacked and thumped in the street I was about five. A bunch of RC kids from the tenement up the hill from mine. Second time, I was maybe eight. We had moved to the new housing estate in Coltness by then. Alone, as usual, I was accosted by several Catholic kids and punched and kicked because I didn't support Celtic. I didn't support anybody. I never took football seriously either.
Although I regularly played with a mixed group of Catholic and Protestant kids at home, we went to separate schools. Ironically, because of the timing of my family's arrival in a large new housing estate, I actually went to a different primary school even from the other non-RC kids around.
When at secondary school, I had to pass the local RC high school which lay between my home and school. I was in numeroius fights as a result.

It was a simple fact of life that children (and adults, but who cared about them?) came in two types, Prods and Fenians.
The other side didn't wash.

Now, I had NO religious affiliation. After I was old enough to tell my folks I wanted no part of bible class, I never darkened a church door and have never been a member of any religious organisation - but in Scotland I'm still a Prod. There is no option.

Anyone who thinks this does not contribute to the sort of sectarianism we have seen flare up this past year is not fit to be an MSP.
Frankly, they should have their driving licence , voter status and Mickey Mouse Club membership revoked and be smacked over the head with a dimwit stick to see if any sense can be knocked into them. This is political correctness taken to insane levels.
 
Last edited:
What a strange country you people live in. We have various religiously denominational schools here in the US, and we don't have any sectarian strife because of it. Of course, we also don't have your bloody history of religious conflict. Or your state religion. Or your soccer (or, as you like to call it, "football") hooligans.
 
theprestige said:
The problem, it seems, isn't "sectarianism", but rather "football hooliganism between fans of rival sports teams".

I have a hard time imagining any amount of Catholic-school sectarianism in Scotland, that isn't trumped in spades by football-team sectarianism in Scotland.

Trying to portray football hooliganism as some sort of religion-inspired persecution is indeed offensive.
Click to expand...

Nope the problem is sectarianism. That is sometimes manifests itself at football is an issue, as is the fact that the two big Glasgow clubs have been perfectly happy to play along with it for years as it made them a lot of money. But you could close down the football teams tomorrow and the sectarianism would still be there.
 
Ziggurat said:
What a strange country you people live in. We have various religiously denominational schools here in the US, and we don't have any sectarian strife because of it. Of course, we also don't have your bloody history of religious conflict. Or your state religion. Or your soccer (or, as you like to call it, "football") hooligans.
Click to expand...

We moved to Wales in 1962,and I went to a school where nobody cared about your religion. It was in a place called Aberfan,but that's another story.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom