What has Serpico to do with the events on 9/11 and the efforts by the FDNY (which is not the NYPD, and even then...)?
Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread
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What has Serpico to do with the events on 9/11 and the efforts by the FDNY (which is not the NYPD, and even then...)?
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
As you've seen from the graphics posted later on in the thread, the damage to the Pentagon facade actually matches the outline of the airliner quite well - a large, central hole where the fuselage struck, then damage in reducing degrees outwards along the ground floor where the wings struck. The width of the seriously damaged area corresponds pretty well to the width of the fuel tanks in the wings, which was where most of the weight of the wings was concentrated. The wingtips outside the fuel tanks were very light structures that wouldn't be expected to do much to reinforced concrete.
So how about you extend the same courtesy in the other direction by looking for a single inconsistency in the insurance fraud explanation you're implying here? The guy in question, Larry Silverstein, took out insurance cover on the Twin Towers when he acquired the lease for them. His insurance company recommended $5.1 billion cover; he countered with $1.1 billion. They settled on $3.6 billion. If he was planning an insurance fraud, why did he try to argue himself out of four billion dollars in proceeds. and end up arguing himself out of a billion and a half?
Nothing is. But it's utterly insane to cast it aside in favour of an account that's precisely 0% accurate. With the sole exception of the observation that, during a part of the collapse of WTC7, parts of the building reached an acceleration of 1G - an observation that has yet to be explained rationally in terms of the properties of any nefarious device - just about everything ever asserted by the truth movement has been shown repeatedly to be utter bollocks. So by all means question the generally accepted narrative, but there's no sane reason to replace it with something infinitely more stupid.
Dave
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
Then he was misinformed, and probably quite ignorant. The lawsuits between Silverstein and his insurers are very complicated and have been discussed here at length, but the general outline of the issues goes something like this:
- The WTC1 and 2 insurance has a maximum payout of $3.6 per incident.
- Silverstein argued that two airliner impacts counts as two incidents.
- The insurance companies argued that one attack counts as one incident.
- Everybody agrees that the damage wouldn't be completely covered even by a double payout.
- Nevertheless, at least some of the rulings went against Silverstein (there were several insurers involved, hence several different judgements).
Dave
Christopher7
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If the word comes down from on high not to fight the fires in WTYC 7 then that's what happens. Chief Hayden says they talked to an "engineer" about 1:20 p.m. Shortly thereafter the chiefs decided to not fight the fires on floors 7 and 12 WTC 7 even though there was water available. The building had serious damage but that damage did not cause or even play a significant role in the collapse. The building was not in danger of collapsing from the debris damage.
Either the chiefs erred on the side of caution or word came down from on high. If it's the latter, it does NOT make the firefighters accomplices, it makes them victims like Serpico and the rest of us.
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leftysergeant
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Prove it or stop smart-mouthing the fire fighters here. Only those who have the skill set to command fire fighting operations give orders on the scene of a fire, and I don't give a rat's nads whether it is civilian or military. Rescue operations and covering exposures on salvagable buildings ALWAYS come before saving a building that anyone with an IQ above room temperature could see was in danger of collapsing. And FEMA is not even in the flow chart and Rotten Rudy had no fire fighting skills. Anyone who even considered re-writing the operational manuals for FDNY to give that sorry little turd authority to take command of a fire fighting operation would probably wind up looking for work far away from any technologicly advanced nation.
I hold Rotten Rudy among the least intelligent, honest, ethical or humane characters in American politics, but I doubt that even he would be such a dirt bag as to want or exercise such authority over the fire fighting professionals.
And you can bank on it that after human remains starterd turning up in the material that Rotten Rudy was using to patch pot holes in NYC, there is no way that he could have kept a lid on the emotions of a small army of men who knew more than Rudy could survive having released to the press if he had given an unlawful order on that day.
If you doubt that, you have no idea what it means to be a real man.
(Are you, by any chance, one of the Reptilian disinfo agents passing for human? It woud explain your lack of understanding of the mind set of a fire fighter.)
The kind of whackadoodlery you have posted here now leads me to believe that you are not even in the construction trades
Christopher7
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If you want proof, read what Serpico has to say.
TFC is no more a firefighter than I am. He did know how they got the water from the Harvey to the WTC at high volume and pressure.
In most cases, but if the powers that be say not to fight the fires then that's the way it is in the real world.
You are grossly uninformed.
NCSTAR 1A Pg xxxvii [pdf pg 39]
Other than initiating the fires in WTC 7, the damage from the debris from WTC 1 had little effect on initiating the collapse of WTC 7.
NIST L pg 36 [pdf pg 40]
Analysis of the global structure indicates that the structure redistributed loads around the severed and damaged areas. A progression of column failure to adjacent columns would have been arrested by the vierendeel action of the perimeter moment frame, which could span across a sizeable opening due to the strength and stiffness of the frame.
At 1:30 p.m. the only fires were on floors 7 and 12.
The building was NOT in danger of collapse.
leftysergeant
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Only a dimwit would actually believe that Rotten Rudy could have given a stupid order on that day and gotten away with it for ten years. Serpico was just one man. You have just shown evidence that you are incapable of grasping some simple concepts about the way real men think.
That is a stupid thing to say. We know you are not a fire fighter. You just like to act like you can tell the difference. This is why we mostly hold twoofers to be mentally defective in some way. You all believe passionately in crap that cannot possibly be true.
Prove it. Show me the law or admit that you are talking through your trousers.
You are talking through your trousers and acting like a child. You have no knowledge of how the command structure works or how a fire fighting operation is carried out. Stomp your feet and scream all you want, you delusions will not become reality.
Now stop accusing real men of lying.
Well, freaking DUH! They let the fire in. The fire department saw the damage, and said "Screw that empty, creraking building. We have other priorities."
Then the fire finished off the building.
There is a limit to everything. You are also makiing the childish mistake of assuming that the heat would have no effect on how efficiently any fail-safes would function. You obviously know little more about construction than you do about fire fighting.
You seem to be ignorant of the most basic fact about fires in a pile of dry Class A fuels. They spread. Do learn something about fires before you pontificate on how they evolve and the effects that they have on materials like steel.
Yeah, there was no immediate threat after all, but, having seen two other buildings collapse and having observed that the buildiong was leaning a bit and making creaking noises, onl;y an idiot unfit to be out on the street without a nanny and a safety harness would go into it to fight the fires when there were so many other tasks that anyone smarter than a first-grader or a terrorist-sympathizing troll could see were more important.
Clayton Moore
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I haven't heard that much chest beating since Junior High.
NoahFence
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Was there anything else notable about the time frame? Like say, for instance he just signed the lease on the trade towers? And that they were already a target of terrorism? So what - he buys the building, and as a site of a former terrorist attack, wasn't supposed to include terrorism in his policy?
Think.
NoahFence
Banned
Hardly. You're just throwing crap against the wall hoping it sticks. Why is it so damn hard for you tools to admit you're wrong, and move on from a subject? Why do you feel the need to always be right, while in reality, you're NEVER right?
Clayton Moore
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Holy jumping goalposts, Batman!
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
Ah, the imaginary June 2001 stand-down order, my favourite indication of a truther blindly believing what he's told without doing the research.
Clayton, you've referenced CJCSI 3610.01 of 31 July 1997, which CJCSI 3610.01A superseded. Take a look at the old and the new instructions, and you'll find two interesting things.
Firstly, in the old (1997) instruction, you'll find the words, "The NMCC will monitor the situation and forward all requests or proposals for DOD military assistance for aircraft piracy (hijacking) to the Secretary of Defense for approval." So the requirement to approve requests at Secretary of Defense level had been in existence since 1997, rather than being introduced in June 2001, as 9/11 Review likes to imply.
Secondly, you'll note that the new instruction contains the exception for "immediate responses as authorized by reference d." I hope you noticed that, because it's in the excerpt you posted. Reference D is 'DOD Directive 3025.15, 18 February 1997, “Military Assistance to Civil Authorities”', which states that "Requests for an immediate response (i.e., any form of immediate action taken by a DoD Component or military commander to save lives, prevent human suffering, or mitigate great property damage under imminently serious conditions) may be made to any Component or Command. The DoD Components that receive verbal requests from civil authorities for support in an exigent emergency may initiate informal planning and, if required, immediately respond as authorized in DoD Directive 3025.1 (reference (g))."
So, what does all this mean? It means that the June 2001 did the exact opposite of what truthers think it did. Rather than introducing a new regulation that said that all requests for military assistance had to be cleared with the Secretary for Defense, it actually introduced a new exception to an old regulation, saying that, if there was an immediate risk to life or property, any commander could act on his own initiative. It didn't prevent the Air Force from responding quickly; it over-ruled a regulation that had obstructed a quick response.
Check the documents yourself. They are:
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01.pdf ,
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf and
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/nsarc/DOD302515pMACA.pdf.
Then re-assess your opinion on this claim, if you can.
Dave
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NoahFence
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I was referring to Silverstein's insurance. Nice reading comprehension.
NoahFence
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You REALLY have no idea what you're talking about.
NoahFence
Banned
Hey kiddo - just as an FYI, Fire causes damage, too. Especially when it's left to do its thing for 6 or 7 hours without anybody fighting it.
excaza
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You're joking, right?
NoahFence
Banned
??
You know far LESS about the real world than you know about firefighting.
NoahFence
Banned
I mean, wow. So the fires burned themselves out at 1:31 PM?
Uh... if there's a fire, and nobody is there to put it out, it gets BIGGER - not smaller.
How? Are there whistleblowers somewhere who are being suppressed or killed? Killing people, unlike in Hollywood, is a bad idea for actual conspiracies, because you end up with people looking for the reason the person died.
If this gets out, if people discover gov't officials conspired to murder thousands, there's a good chance they'll end up lynched. And that's the good option; the other one is that they throw each other to the wolves, and watch as their life and legacy are ruined in a conspicuously public trial, as are those of their families and friends.
You need to somehow convince hundreds if not thousands of people to participate in the plan in the first place, and then make sure they won't squeal for the rest of their lives. Then you need to make sure the people who are guarding the people won't squeal. Then you need to make sure either of those groups never has access to a public library, a web cafe, or a cell phone with an Internet connection. If the bad guys had that much power, they wouldn't need to fake a war.
I said this was just one bit of evidence. Another is that if the WTC was taken down by controlled demolitions, said demo charges would have to be planted at some point. Truthers ignore this part, because prepping even smaller buildings for demo takes weeks. Given that the people planting the bombs wouldn't be able to remove walls and weaken structural members like in a real CD, it would be a pretty much unprecedented form of CD, and even more difficult than usual. Combined with having to plant it stealthily, and you have several tons of explosives being planted over a period of months, not noticed by the half a million people who passed through the three buildings daily.
That's rather hypocritical considering that you are basing your theories on something you heard from some guy, and haven't even spent a few seconds Googling to check your claims.
Yep. Some of it is still classified, some of it is gov't officials who understandably don't want to be responsible for the deaths of thousands. The salient points all support the official story.
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