Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[King of the Americas]

What kind of damage would you expect? Facade damage at the edges is quite evident in pictures like this one, and this one. There's even visible damage from the tail.

Could you place those photos on this image:

 

[leftysergeant]

The engines themselves would have done as much damage, or more, than the body of the plane, according to two airline pilots I've spoken with. Look at the holes made in the WTC towers...

They have a tendancy to shatter if they are running full-blast on impact with a really resistant substrate, such as a heavy brick wall. The central shaft breaks and the rotors fly off in different directons.

And what came 'out' of this hole?

Looks like mostly fuselage parts from the front of the aircraft and a nose wheel. It probably hit more like a flectchette round from a shotgun than like a bullet. Notice that it had only the energy to punch out the wall, but not scatter bricks much beyond the sheet of drywall that it pushed out from inside the building.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/Emmanuel_Goldstein/pentagon6.jpg

 

[leftysergeant]

Could you place those photos on this image:

The person who prepared that graphic has no clue what he was doing. He has the wings with no dihedral and the plane coming in flat. Witnesses saw it blank left. So the red line on the right should realy touch the facade about twice as far up the facade. That jagged line of broken facade is a wing print.

The line from the vertical stabilizer struck two window frames to the left, because the plane was banking left.

The impact indicated for the left wing is the only thing that the drongo who did this graphic got right.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

All that I need to see is a single serial # and a work order matching it from one of those plane parts, and I'm sold.

You're suppose to save that particular dance for when you've exhausted all of your other excuses.

Could you place those photos on this image:

The first two images are of the area where the red line for the left wing meets the Pentagon. The picture of the damage caused by the tail is, well... I won't insult your intelligence by describing where that one is located.

 

[000063]

99 days? What kind of fire can't be put out for 99 days?

Friction from the collapse?

I know you're just trying to change the subject and quote-mining, but Stundied anyway. I think.

Please look up Centralia, PA for an example of a fire that has burned since the 60s.

 

[King of the Americas]

You're suppose to save that particular dance for when you've exhausted all of your other excuses.

...

I'm not cemented to any particular theory... I am moved by evidence.

 

[King of the Americas]

The person who prepared that graphic has no clue what he was doing. He has the wings with no dihedral and the plane coming in flat. Witnesses saw it blank left. ...

...

The plane in the graphic IS banked, look at the distance between the plane wing tips and its shadow.

The video offered didn't show a 'dramatic' bank...

 

[dafydd]

I'm not cemented to any particular theory... I am moved by evidence.

Would that be the same kind of evidence that you used for your moment skyward?

 

[000063]

That is a non answer. The question was if 38 million gallons was sufficient for the first 3 days.

You are wrong about it being 38 million gallons in the first 3 days and you are wrong about it being insufficient to reach the 12th floor. You are NOT an expert on this subject.

"After the WTC buildings collapsed, fire fighting and rescue operations continued. The fires at ground zero were smoldering for months after the attack (41). It was determined that 3 million gallons of water were hosed on site in the fire-fighting efforts between 9/11 and 9/21
In addition, there were two episodes of rain during the same 10-day period: on 9/14 and 9/20,21 (18), totaling 0.9 million gallons of water in the Bathtub area. Considering the neighboring areas, we take 1 million gallons from the rain. Therefore, a total of 4 million gallons of water percolated through the debris in the first 10 days and collected at the bottom of the Bathtub."
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/241096.pdf

That is another non answer. How did they get millions of gallons to the sight if the water just trickled out of the supply line as you said it would do?

I did some research and I now know the answer but you still don't. The way they managed to get millions of gallons of water to the sight from the Harvey would necessarily deliver it at a pressure sufficient to reach the 12th floor and above as in this video of water being applied to the roof of 90 West St. from the building next door demonstrates.
at 3:37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufz71bjwqvY

Chris, you're still ignoring my post. If there should have been enough pressure, you're accusing the FDNY of helping to cover it up, or the conspirators of somehow managing to sabotage every one of thousands of pieces of equipment that would be on scene(or somehow knowing exactly which companies would be battling the blaze), then managing to remove it without any of the companies noticing.

Plus, I'd like to see testimony from people who were FDNY during 9/11 who think there was something fishy going on WRT water pressure. Considering that several FDNY people have said precisely the opposite, you're swimming upstream.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I know you're just trying to change the subject and quote-mining, but Stundied anyway. I think.

Please look up Centralia, PA for an example of a fire that has burned since the 60s.

Yeah. OK. There were veins of coal beneath the WTC buildings?

 

[000063]

This is where I stopped in my 9-11 'conspiracy' hunting. I started out looking for a single inconsistency.

Why? You have to find the anomaly, then look for a reasonable explanation. Truthers frequently ignore any points against their claims, which isn't skepticism.

Today I heard about WTC Tower 7, owned by a guy who increased his insurance coverage to 'terrorist attacks', just 2 weeks before it happened.

After his shareholders forced him to, yes. And that was still a far cry from the maximum insurable value. Are you claiming the conspiracy was put together in just two weeks?

Then he went on to collect double, claiming since it was 2 planes, he was attacked twice.

No, he was in a battle with the insurance companies over whether the attacks counted as multiple incidents or just one.

Now he owns the Empire State Building(?).

What's the question mark for? You didn't, y'know, try to find the answer yourself? Because Goggle says Anthony Malkin, not Larry S., owns the ESB.

 

[Animal]

Yeah, I just found that...but if you'll notice the building is 'unharmed' at the edges...even if the wings were made of aluminum foil and wood, hitting a building at several hundred miles as hour is going to inflict SOME damage...

Aircraft wing structure is designed to resist lift forces. Forces on the leading edge of wing are not as great, hence not as much structure. The wings are also swept........so guess what happens at impact.........they have a tendancy to fold backward.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Chris, you're still ignoring my post. If there should have been enough pressure, you're accusing the FDNY of helping to cover it up, or the conspirators of somehow managing to sabotage every one of thousands of pieces of equipment that would be on scene(or somehow knowing exactly which companies would be battling the blaze), then managing to remove it without any of the companies noticing.

Plus, I'd like to see testimony from people who were FDNY during 9/11 who think there was something fishy going on WRT water pressure. Considering that several FDNY people have said precisely the opposite, you're swimming upstream.

You need to understand COC. If FEMA, under the authority of the federal government, tells you to you to jump or stand down you jump or stand down. It's as simple as that.

 

[dafydd]

Chris, you're still ignoring my post. If there should have been enough pressure, you're accusing the FDNY of helping to cover it up, or the conspirators of somehow managing to sabotage every one of thousands of pieces of equipment that would be on scene(or somehow knowing exactly which companies would be battling the blaze), then managing to remove it without any of the companies noticing.

Plus, I'd like to see testimony from people who were FDNY during 9/11 who think there was something fishy going on WRT water pressure. Considering that several FDNY people have said precisely the opposite, you're swimming upstream.

He'll be away for a while until he thinks that we have forgotten his negative water pressure faux pas.

 

[MG1962]

Yeah, I just found that...but if you'll notice the building is 'unharmed' at the edges...even if the wings were made of aluminum foil and wood, hitting a building at several hundred miles as hour is going to inflict SOME damage...

Something that always has to be kept in mind. The Pentagon is like virtually no other building. Sadly this is not because of it's status but intended use. It was designed from the ground up as a government archive in an era when all information was held in filing cabinets - very heavy filing cabinets

 

[TJM]

Yeah, I just found that...but if you'll notice the building is 'unharmed' at the edges...even if the wings were made of aluminum foil and wood, hitting a building at several hundred miles as hour is going to inflict SOME damage...

It did.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195982

The videos in the OP are from 2002 and illustrate how much damage Flight 77 caused. It's much better than trying to judge from photos of the immediate aftermath, which are either aerials or otherwise shot from long distances away.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

That is a non answer. The question was if 38 million gallons was sufficient for the first 3 days.

Chris, first let's get back to basics. For now (conditionally) we (and Triforcharity I think) agree that the fireboat Harvey delivered 8000 gpm at 300 psi. Let's work from that point.

You are wrong about it being 38 million gallons in the first 3 days and you are wrong about it being insufficient to reach the 12th floor. You are NOT an expert on this subject.

Agree that comparing 3 days to 99 days is not accurate.

As to whether 8000 gpm at 300 psi is sufficient to reach the 12th floor (and I'm not sure what the 12th floor has to do with it anymore - remind me please), I'd again have to say, show me the math.

Calculate how many 1.5 inch hose lines can be deployed from the discharge point of the fireboat Harvey to WTC 7. How many feet of hose line? How many psi of friction loss.

I think the standard is to use 250 gpm flow per 1.5 inch hose line.

Sorry, I have to cut this short. Will revisit tomorrow night. Apologies.

"After the WTC buildings collapsed, fire fighting and rescue operations continued. The fires at ground zero were smoldering for months after the attack (41). It was determined that 3 million gallons of water were hosed on site in the fire-fighting efforts between 9/11 and 9/21
In addition, there were two episodes of rain during the same 10-day period: on 9/14 and 9/20,21 (18), totaling 0.9 million gallons of water in the Bathtub area. Considering the neighboring areas, we take 1 million gallons from the rain. Therefore, a total of 4 million gallons of water percolated through the debris in the first 10 days and collected at the bottom of the Bathtub."
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/241096.pdf

That is another non answer. How did they get millions of gallons to the sight if the water just trickled out of the supply line as you said it would do?

I did some research and I now know the answer but you still don't. The way they managed to get millions of gallons of water to the sight from the Harvey would necessarily deliver it at a pressure sufficient to reach the 12th floor and above as in this video of water being applied to the roof of 90 West St. from the building next door demonstrates.
at 3:37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufz71bjwqvY

 

[King of the Americas]

...

After his shareholders forced him to, yes. And that was still a far cry from the maximum insurable value. Are you claiming the conspiracy was put together in just two weeks?

No, he was in a battle with the insurance companies over whether the attacks counted as multiple incidents or just one.

...

I think that's probably when 'he' heard that an attack was imminent.

According the guy I spoke with, he won the case, and collected double.

 

[000063]

You need to understand COC. If FEMA, under the authority of the federal government, tells you to you to jump or stand down you jump or stand down. It's as simple as that.

I'd still like to see an independent source indicating that FEMA or the President has operational control of the FDNY, and/or such a stand-down command was actually received.

I suspect I shall be disappointed.

CoC is mostly a military system. The President has about as much personal, boots-on-the-ground control over the FDNY as he does over your local school board.

Firefighters are men and women who risk their lives to defend the public. If they think something is fishy, they're most likely to protest, no matter where the orders come from.

 

[000063]

I think that's probably when 'he' heard that an attack was imminent.

"He" being Larry Silverstein. This does not explain why he insured for such a small amount, and had to be forced to add more. Heard from who? The gov't? Did they tell him, and hope he wouldn't tell anyone, or was their operational control shoddy enough for a leak so shortly before the 9/11, but not after it became the single most documented, most studied, and most examined terrorist attack in history?

According the guy I spoke with, he won the case, and collected double.

A 'guy'? You spoke to a 'guy'? So you haven't done any searching yourself?

I'm just going to assume you're being unintentionally naive, and not "JAQing off". Educate thyself.

http://www.911myths.com/html/windfall.html

Basically, Larry is legally compelled to rebuild, which will put him in the red to the tune of billions.