Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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So you do want to drop the subject. OK :)

'Comodi's Lies' are no longer part of the canon apparently.
Pity, as that had some very exciting features - conspiracy, mind wipes, retrocausality other stuff.

Platonov, I'm still wondering if you believe in Mignini's psychic powers, remember the Matteini Report? What 'evidence' did he have Amanda was in the murder room holding anyone down?
 
The timestamp on the CCTV video of Meredith Kercher arriving home was 8:41 p.m. The clock was proven to be 10-12 minutes slow by the Sollecito defense in regards to what time the postal police arrived. 8:41 p.m. with the adjusment for the CCTV clock being slow has her arriving home 8:51 - 8:53 p.m.

Giving time for the attack and dying time I would guess she died around 9:15 - 9:30 p.m.


Rolfe,

If MK was attacked shortly after arriving home would her stomach stop processing at that point due to fight or flight response?

But didn't Meredith's buddy Sophie testify that she left Meredith and arrived home as the 21:00 news was starting on the TV? .. which would mean Meredith arrived home at the earliest 21:05 ... the defense never challenged this in the trial, have they since?
 
But didn't Meredith's buddy Sophie testify that she left Meredith and arrived home as the 21:00 news was starting on the TV? .. which would mean Meredith arrived home at the earliest 21:05 ... the defense never challenged this in the trial, have they since?

If Sophie walked her half way then why would Meredith get home later than Sophie? It all depends on exactly where they left each other in relation to each of the homes.
 
Platonov, I'm still wondering if you believe in Mignini's psychic powers, remember the Matteini Report? What 'evidence' did he have Amanda was in the murder room holding anyone down?


I thought we had dealt with this issue - see Sr Gentile & Shatner.

But seeing as you ask.... Yes, Mignini probably has psychic powers.
Comodi obviously has, see the the links upthread, and perhaps he was trained by her. Or maybe all Italian prosecutors have ?

However its not an argument I would like to have to defend as people would think I'm crazy :)
 
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Appeals Documents

OK, not sure whether these have been posted yet?.

I've got both Knox's and Raff's from 30.10.2010 .... no wonder I'd forgotten about them.

Quick look in RS's and TOD is included ... so presumably, a lot of speculation on the issue would be redundant, until the two sets of lawyers have finished presenting evidence and summing up?

Before uploading these, I'll check the Court Registry, where the latest versions should be found and see whether there are already English versions 'in another place' ... as they say in the UK Parliament.
 
But didn't Meredith's buddy Sophie testify that she left Meredith and arrived home as the 21:00 news was starting on the TV? .. which would mean Meredith arrived home at the earliest 21:05 ... the defense never challenged this in the trial, have they since?

She testified they left the friends house at around 8:45PM and they split up at 8:55PM. She wanted to be home at 9PM to watch a program. The CCTV picture and the aborted phone call to home at 8:56PM lead me to believe that the CCTV picture is likely that of Meredith and Sophie may have been off by about 4 minutes and 32 seconds as to when they split up.
 
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If Sophie walked her half way then why would Meredith get home later than Sophie? It all depends on exactly where they left each other in relation to each of the homes.

All that stuff was gone through before ... the defense were happy with 21:05,
why waste time on it? ... the appeals give us more important things to focus on?
 
But didn't Meredith's buddy Sophie testify that she left Meredith and arrived home as the 21:00 news was starting on the TV? .. which would mean Meredith arrived home at the earliest 21:05 ... the defense never challenged this in the trial, have they since?


Does it matter? 8.55, 9.05, 9.10 - it's pretty much immaterial to the case. My point is that Meredith's empty duodenum suggests she died not much later than nine. If she was last seen at 9.10 rather than 8.53, so what?

Add to that the fact that there's no sign of her having done anything in the house after she got back, and that she seems not even to have taken off her outdoor clothes, and it sounds very much as if she was attacked very soon after getting in the front door. As if she disturbed a violent intruder, even. Minutiae of ten or fifteen minutes one way or another doesn't alter anything.

The defence seem to be going for 9.30 to 10.00, possibly to allow for the longest possible time lag. I've seen these tactics. Well, we think it was nine o'clock. But the prosecution want 11.30. So what's the latest if really possibly could have been? Ten o'clock? Well let's go for that. The reasoning being that if someone were to challenge the earlier time successfully, a court might decide on an either/or and allow the ridiculous 11.30. Ten o'clock is a safer bet in that situation.

Rolfe.
 
Meredith Kercher caught on CCTV arriving home 8:51 - 8:53 p.m.

But didn't Meredith's buddy Sophie testify that she left Meredith and arrived home as the 21:00 news was starting on the TV? .. which would mean Meredith arrived home at the earliest 21:05 ... the defense never challenged this in the trial, have they since?


Sophie -
Massei pg24
"she indicated that they had left the house at around 20:45 pm."

Micheli
"LATER SOPHIE SAYS NOW SHE REMEMBERS GETTING HOME AROUND 8:55 pm"

It is a 6 minute walk from Amy and Robyn's to Meredith's cottage.
It was only a 2 minute walk to Sophie's and then another 4 to Meredith's

Sophie is not sure exactly what time they left. Her first statement works perfectly with MK arriving home 8:51 - 8:53 p.m.

What other female figure wearing a white or light blue jacket walking toward the cottage would there have been caught on CCTV that night?

Sophie is not sure of the exact time. The time stamp doesn't lie. The figure of MK was caught on CCTV arriving home at 8:51- 8:53 p.m.
 
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Does it matter? 8.55, 9.05, 9.10 - it's pretty much immaterial to the case. My point is that Meredith's empty duodenum suggests she died not much later than nine. If she was last seen at 9.10 rather than 8.53, so what?


True, it's not that important in regards to ToD. It does give and explanation for the cut off 8:56 p.m. call that MK made though. She possibly heard something or was attacked at that time.
 
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Yes, I see that. I don't suppose it's going to sway someone convinced of guilt, but to coin a phrase, it all forms "a real and convincing pattern".

Rolfe.
 
Time of Death - This is the section from the 2010 RS Appeal document, if it is any use to anyone?. I'll get the latest version if I can, then delete this lengthy post ... must go out for cigarettes ... could be a long night, getting ready for tomorrow ... I'm assuming that the hearing is still on?


7. LA SENTENZA HA DETERMINATO ERRONEAMENTE L’ORARIO DELLA MORTE
La Corte, richiamando i dati tanatocronologici e le valutazioni a questi correlati, formulate da consulenti e periti, ha evidenziato che:
1. nonostante la salma di Meredith non sia stata pesata, aver determinato il peso della ragazza ricorrendo alle formule usate per calcolare il peso-forma, non può aver fornito risultati attendibili (p.179 sentenza). Tenuto conto dell’età di 21 anni e dell’altezza di m. 1,64, infatti, le formule di Lorenz usate per calcolare il peso forma hanno indicato che Meredith pesasse 57 Kg., collocando quindi l’ora della morte alle ore 21:50. Se fossero state usate le formule di Broca, invece, sarebbe stato indicato un peso di 60 Kg., e quindi l’ora di morte si sarebbe collocata alle ore 20:00;
2. utilizzando i medesimi parametri implementati dal dott. Lalli incluso il peso corporeo di 55 Kg., collocare l’epoca di morte alle ore 22:50 anziché alle ore 23:00, è ininfluente in quanto entrambe le ipotesi hanno una tolleranza assai elevata vicina al 95%;
3. la curva gaussiana può essere soggetta a variazioni, ove venga modificato taluno dei parametri implementati, come evidenziato dal Prof. Norelli, il quale, in merito alla tipologia di copertura del cadavere, ha evidenziato come la trapunta che ricopriva il corpo di Meredith potesse avere come fattore correttivo 1,2-1,3 ma non 1,7, utilizzato dal dott. Lalli e considerato corretto dal Prof. Introna;
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4. “E‟ vero che in seguito nell‟applicazione del nomogramma il dr. Lalli ha dato un valore di Kg 55. Considerando tuttavia che quando ha valutato il peso del corpo in Kg 50 il dr. Lalli aveva davanti il corpo stesso ed era particolarmente attento all‟osservazione dello stesso quale si presentava, è da ritenere che tale misurazione di peso non si discosti di molto dalla realtà e, tenendo conto del dato successivamente fornito e pari a 55 chili, si ritiene che il peso di Meredith possa essere indicato con buona approssimazione in 52-53 chili, peso che, applicando il nomogramma e tenendo conto dei parametri indicati, ivi compreso lo stesso fattore di correzione dell‟1.7, darebbe come ora della morte con tolleranza 95% la mezzanotte, la mezzanotte meno dieci” (pp. 175-183 sentenza)
In merito al punto 1, è necessario svolgere alcune osservazioni, in quanto l’inattendibilità espressa dalla Corte sull’uso delle regole per il calcolo del peso forma si fonda sulla valutazione di sole due formule: quella di Lorenz che, per una donna di 21 anni, alta 164 cm, calcola il peso forma pari a 57 Kg, e quella di Broca, che per una donna della medesima età ed altezza, calcola un peso forma pari a 60 Kg.
La sentenza, quindi, ha del tutto omesso di riportare il risultato ottenuto dall’applicazione delle formule per il calcolo del peso forma, che fornisce un range compreso tra 55.4 - 60 Kg con una media di circa 57 Kg (p. 18 consulenza Prof. Introna).
In realtà, utilizzando gli stessi parametri implementati dal dott. Lalli nel nomogramma informatico, si perviene ad un’epoca di morte collocabile alle ore 21:50.
In merito al punto 4, deve rilevarsi che, mentre il consulente della difesa di Raffaele Sollecito ha utilizzato la media derivante dalla somma del peso forma calcolato in base a tutte le formule presenti in letteratura, per individuare il peso forma di Meredith, la Corte ha fatto una media tra i pesi rilevati “a occhio” dal dott. Lalli: (50+55)/2 = 52-53 Kg, in modo tale da collocare l’epoca di morte a mezzanotte/mezzanotte meno dieci.
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Di fronte a simili valutazioni, è doveroso segnalare come i dati scientifici emersi nel corso del processo siano stati scarsamente considerati.
In merito al punto 3, la Corte ha fatto riferimento ad alcune precisazioni apportate dal Prof. Norelli sul correttivo da utilizzare nel nomogramma (1.2-1.3, anziché 1.7), senza avvedersi che l’utilizzo del nomogramma da parte dello stesso era del tutto errato in quanto non sono state considerate, né le condizioni di copertura della salma né, tantomeno, il sito di giacitura della stessa.
Il fattore correttivo 1.7 è stato utilizzato, sia per il fatto che la salma era coperta con una trapunta, sia perché la stessa giaceva in parte su mattonelle e in parte sul cuscino, mentre il fattore correttivo 1.2-1.3 è stato impiegato esclusivamente in relazione al fatto che la copertura della salma era costituita da due coperte (cfr. didascalia di utilizzo per immissione dati del programma informatico di Henssege allegato alla consulenza del dott. Lalli ed a quella del Prof. Introna).
Non sono, né poche, né lievi le sviste e le imprecisioni della sentenza sul contenuto gastrico.
Nella sentenza, infatti, si afferma “Il prof. Umani Ronchi … ha inoltre aggiunto che lo stomaco per svuotarsi può impiegare tre, quattro, cinque ore ma anche molto di più (ud. del 19.9.2009)” (p. 181 sentenza).
Dal verbale di udienza del 19.9.2009, si rileva che il Prof. Umani Ronchi ha indicato come tempo necessario, per lo svuotamento gastrico, tre-quattro ore, piuttosto che quattro-cinque ore (p. 3 ud. 19.9.2009: “quindi possono essere tre, quattro ore, possono essere quattro, cinque; ma insomma, si, tre, quattro ore al limite, si certo”), come dallo stesso ribadito a pagina 38, ove ha precisato che a distanza di tre-quattro ore dal pasto lo stomaco deve essere vuoto (“normalmente dopo tre, quattro ore dall‟assunzione del pasto lo stomaco dovrebbe essere vuoto, giusto? Perito: E‟ vuoto? Dovrebbe”).
Inoltre, nella sentenza si legge che: “Oltre a ciò va anche considerata la presenza di residui alimentari nel tenue e, pertanto, come ipotizzato dal Prof. Umani Ronchi, si potrebbe pensare che tali residui si trovassero nel duodeno e
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per una non perfetta apposizione delle legature, ovvero per una apposizione di legature avvenuta con modalità e tempistica che non abbiano potuto evitare uno scivolamento di materiale dal duodeno al tenue. Il dato: duodeno vuoto, sarebbe non pienamente attendibile” (p. 182 sentenza).
Il Prof. Umani Ronchi, alle udienze del 19.04.2008 e del 19.9.2009, non ha mai riferito su “una non perfetta apposizione delle legature” a livello del duodeno, bensì sull’omessa legatura del duodeno da parte del dott. Lalli in sede autoptica (p. 23 ud. 19.9.2009: “tenuto conto che non sono state messe le legature, tenuto conto che senza le legature può capitare questo scivolamento verso il basso e che una quota di cibo che magari era passata già nel duodeno, non fosse già per gravità arrivata, non fosse arrivata fino alla valvola ileocecale”).
La mancata legatura del duodeno consentiva, infatti, di far ritenere al Prof. Umani Ronchi che il contenuto gastrico, almeno in parte, fosse scivolato nel duodeno ovvero che il contenuto gastrico, già passato nel duodeno, fosse scivolato per gravità fino alla valvola ileocecale dopo aver percorso 5 metri di intestino tenue. Da ciò, la Corte ha dedotto l’inattendibilità del riscontro effettuato in sede autoptica relativo al dato oggettivo di aver trovato il duodeno vuoto.
Sulla base di tale assunto, avallato dalla decisione, si potrebbe quindi affermare che, ove il duodeno fosse stato chiuso mediante legatura, il contenuto gastrico sia quello fedelmente annotato dal dott. Lalli e che il duodeno descritto come vuoto costituisca un dato pienamente attendibile.
Tuttavia, la Corte, durante l’udienza del 30.11.2009, ha potuto direttamente visionare il filmato dell’autopsia effettuata dal dott. Lalli, il quale ha correttamente apposto le legature per chiudere il duodeno, sì da impedire qualsivoglia scivolamento del contenuto gastrico nel duodeno stesso e dal duodeno in giù, svuotando di credibilità tutte le erronee considerazioni propugnate circa il possibile scivolamento di cibo dallo stomaco nel duodeno.
Ma la decisione impugnata ha del tutto omesso di valutare questo dato.
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Nella motivazione si legge che: “In sede di autopsia il dr.Lalli ha rinvenuto nell‟esofago un frammento vegetale, apparentemente un pezzo di fungo (pag. 46 relazione Lalli). In relazione a tali dati si potrebbe pensare che Meredith giunta nella propria abitazione verso le 21.00 abbia mangiato qualcosa accompagnando tale pasto – che quindi sarebbe stato l‟ultimo della sua vita – con un po‟ di vino o di birra (ndr: in riferimento alla alcolemia di 0.43 g/l rilevata all’esito delle indagini chimico tossicologiche effettuate dal dott. Lalli)” (p. 182 sentenza).
La descrizione del fungo effettuata dal dott. Lalli in sede autoptica rappresenta un problema allo stato non risolto, che la Corte avrebbe potuto chiarire mediante l’attuazione di indagini merceologiche, che ben si sarebbero potute effettuare su tale frammento alimentare.
Si tratta, infatti, di una descrizione effettuata dal dott. Lalli in termini di verosimiglianza e condizionata dal dato storico circostanziale, essendo il dott. Lalli a conoscenza, ai tempi in cui ha effettuato l’autopsia, del fatto che Meredith Kercher aveva consumato una pizza con funghi (come si evince dal filmato dell’autopsia alle ore 16:48).
Tale frammento alimentare è stato, quindi, repertato dal dott. Lalli e riposto all’interno di una provetta chiusa con un tappo blu, e non è mai stato sottoposto ad esame merceologico per identificarne con certezza la natura, lasciando così aperta ogni ipotesi: dalla presenza di funghi nel condimento della pizza (non corroborata dal dato circostanziale, né dalla presenza di altri frammenti simili nel contenuto gastrico), alla consumazione di una seconda cena effettuata dopo le ore 21 (supposizione non confortata dalla presenza di frammenti alimentari simili nel contenuto gastrico rinvenuto all’interno dello stomaco della Kercher).
In merito, poi, alla presunta assunzione di un bicchiere di vino o di birra che, secondo la Corte, sarebbe avvenuta quando Meredith è rientrata nella sua abitazione, si deve evidenziare la contraddizione in cui è caduta la sentenza. A pagina 390 è scritto, infatti, che la vittima non aveva mai assunto alcool.
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La decisione ha puntualizzato che: “In relazione (…) alla difficoltà di restringere il range attraverso l‟utilizzo del criterio dello svuotamento gastrico ovvero del nomogramma di Henssge, si ritiene che l‟ora della morte debba essere indicata nella oscillazione di orario sulla quale i vari periti ed anche i consulenti hanno sostanzialmente concordato, e cioè dalle 20 alle 30 ore prima del primo accertamento sul cadavere avvenuto alle ore 00,50 del 3.11.2007” (p. 182 sentenza).
Alla luce di quanto appena rilevato, possono evidenziarsi le seguenti sviste: soltanto i periti hanno affermato che il range più ampio in cui collocare l’epoca di morte è compreso tra le 20 e le 30 ore antecedenti alle ore 00:50 del 3.11.2007, mentre il dott. Lalli ha indicato un range compreso tra le 21.30 e le 30 ore antecedenti alle ore 00:50. Il Prof. Bacci e la dott.ssa Liviero, inoltre, hanno collocato l’epoca di morte in un range compreso tra le ore 21:30 e le ore 24:00 dell’1.11.2007, ossia nell’arco temporale più ampio compreso in quello indicato dai periti: fra le 20 e le 30 ore antecedenti alle 00:50 del 3.11.2007 (cfr. p. 13 relazione Bacci-Liviero); il secondo è che tutti i consulenti dell’accusa ed i periti, pur ammettendo le difficoltà interpretative del contenuto gastrico ai fini tanatocronologici, hanno individuato l’epoca di morte rispetto alla tipologia e quantità di contenuto gastrico ed alla composizione dell’ultimo pasto noto nel modo che segue:
- dott. Lalli: a distanza di non più di 2-3 ore dall’assunzione dell’ultimo pasto (cfr errate corrige del 15/2/2008 acquisita in sede dibattimentale e verbale stenotipico p. 47 ud. 3.4.09);
- Prof. Bacci e dott.ssa Liviero: a distanza di 2-3/3-4 ore dall’ultimo pasto che dalle ore 18 era stato consumato in modo discontinuo fino alle ore 20 circa dell’1.11, come dimostrato dal fatto che lo stomaco era pieno e il duodeno vuoto, indicativo che lo svuotamento gastrico non era ancora iniziato (p. 64 ud. 4.4.09; p. 32 ud.18.4.09);
- Prof. Umani Ronchi: a distanza di 3-4 ore dall’ultimo pasto (p. 30 ud. 19.9.09).
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Sulla base di tali precisazioni si può affermare che, pur tenendo conto del più ampio range indicato dalla maggior parte dei consulenti, l’epoca della morte sarebbe collocabile alle ore 22:50 del l’1.11.2007.
È possibile, tuttavia, da un punto di vista scientifico, restringere ulteriormente tale range, utilizzando il contenuto gastrico, per entità (500 cc.) e per composizione (pasta frolla, mozzarella, vegetali, fettine di mela), nonché il confronto tra lo stesso e l’ultimo pasto assunto dalla vittima riferito dai testi: l’epoca di morte sarebbe in tal modo collocabile, in base ad un criterio medico-legale di massima attendibilità (stante le univoche e convergenti opinioni dei vari consulenti e periti), a distanza di 2-3/3-4 ore dall’inizio dell’assunzione dell’ultimo pasto noto (ore 18:30-19:00 dell’1.11.2007) e quindi intorno alle ore 21:30-22:00.
L’ascrivibilità dell’epoca di morte alle ore 21:30-22:00 dell’1.11.2007 ha trovato conferma:
- nella corrispondenza, per quantità (500 cc. pari a circa mezzo chilo di alimenti) e qualità (pizza con mozzarella e vegetali, nonché torta di mele), tra alimenti assunti durante l’ultimo pasto dell’1.11.2007, e contenuto gastrico della salma;
- nell’assenza nello stomaco di Meredith di frammenti alimentari diversi rispetto a quelli descritti dalle amiche della stessa, come consumati durante la cena dell’1.1.2007;
- nel duodeno vuoto, che (essendo stato debitamente chiuso mediante legatura così come si vede nel filmato autoptico), è indicativo del mancato inizio dello svuotamento gastrico;
- nella aleatorietà della natura attribuita al frammento vegetale rilevato al III distale dell’esofago, mai sottoposto ad esame merceologico e che ragionevolmente può essere ricondotto ad una fettina di mela.
 
I thought we had dealt with this issue - see Sr Gentile & Shatner.

But seeing as you ask.... Yes, Mignini probably has psychic powers.
Comodi obviously has, see the the links upthread, and perhaps he was trained by her. Or maybe all Italian prosecutors have ?

However its not an argument I would like to have to defend as people would think I'm crazy :)

Do you know I became aware of JREF? Years back a buddy of mine was regaling me with stories of this woman that he said could speak to dead people, he'd seen it on Montel Williams or somesuch. He wasn't convinced but he thought it was downright spooky, and the way he explained it (he'd totally forgotten the 'misses' as often happens) it sounded pretty remarkable to me as well.

However, my hypothesis was the least likely explanation was she was actually talking to dead people, so I wanted to know how she did the trick. That's how I found JREF, which I would come back to sometimes when I needed information on things like homeopathy in other discussions, knowing just enough about biology to know that it couldn't possibly work the way they were saying it did. I needed the big unpronounceable words assembled in one place too.

Now, I'm trying to show you how Mignini pulled off his illusion, and doing it in a linear fashion so you can see at each step of the way they don't actually have any real evidence against Raffaele and Amanda, everything they said they had was bogus or misunderstood. However they blast out to the cheap seats absolute mendacity, either because they really are that incompetent, or they're trying to create an atmosphere of absolution about their guilt. This is 'strategy' in places that don't have sequestered juries, which incidentally is why many places do for high profile cases like this. Over the next week from the eighth, everything they will produce to the press is utterly bogus as evidence. Think about it, the best they get is the 'murder knife' that never left the drawer that night.

So what the end result is, they keep saying Amanda is a liar, she 'changed her story' three times, five times, whatever, but it really amounts to is they got those poor kids in that backroom and rattled their brains, which produced one story from Raffaele which couldn't have been the night of the murder, and gibberish from Amanda that will be thrown out by the Supreme Court.

The rest of the world thinks they've assembled a 'mountain of evidence:' bleach receipts, missing sweatshirts, CCTV camera shots, a Harry Potter book not where she said it was etc--all mis/disinformation. The 'shoeprints of Raffaele's' are mistakes too, as we know.

So what real evidence do they have a week after the arrests? Here's a piece from that time showing what they say they have, do you understand what I'm getting at here, Platonov?
 
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Do you know I became aware of JREF? Years back a buddy of mine was regaling me with stories of this woman that he said could speak to dead people, he'd seen it on Montel Williams or somesuch. He wasn't convinced but he thought it was downright spooky, and the way he explained it (he'd totally forgotten the 'misses' as often happens) it sounded pretty remarkable to me as well.

However, my hypothesis was the least likely explanation was she was actually talking to dead people, so I wanted to know how she did the trick. That's how I found JREF, which I would come back to sometimes when I needed information on things like homeopathy in other discussions, knowing just enough about biology to know that it couldn't possibly work the way they were saying it did. I needed the big unpronounceable words assembled in one place too.

Now, I'm trying to show you how Mignini pulled off his illusion, and doing it in a linear fashion so you can see at each step of the way they don't actually have any real evidence against Raffaele and Amanda, everything they said they had was bogus or misunderstood. However they blast out to the cheap seats absolute mendacity, either because they really are that incompetent, or they're trying to create an atmosphere of absolution about their guilt. This is 'strategy' in places that don't have sequestered juries, which incidentally is why many places do for high profile cases like this. Over the next week from the eighth, everything they will produce to the press is utterly bogus as evidence. Think about it, the best they get is the 'murder knife' that never left the drawer that night.

So what the end result is, they keep saying Amanda is a liar, she 'changed her story' three times, five times, whatever, but it really amounts to is they got those poor kids in that backroom and rattled their brains, which produced one story from Raffaele which couldn't have been the night of the murder, and gibberish from Amanda that will be thrown out by the Supreme Court.

The rest of the world thinks they've assembled a 'mountain of evidence:' bleach receipts, missing sweatshirts, CCTV camera shots, a Harry Potter book not where she said it was etc--all mis/disinformation. The 'shoeprints of Raffaele's' are mistakes too, as we know.

So what real evidence do they have a week after the arrests? Here's a piece from that time showing what they say they have, do you understand what I'm getting at here, Platonov?


Talking to the dead or to god (or your cat even) is fine, there's no bar there.
Its when they start talking back the problems arise.

As for the rest - I and others have dealt with this eleventyseven times (and that's a conservative figure).
Here, for example, at some length.

'We' need to get past Nov 5th* - the fact that they were arrested - and deal with the situation as it now exists.

*Further past than Nov 8th :)
 
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I just want to know what evidence there is that's strong enough to outweigh what we've discussed about the time of death. Logic, common sense and physiology suggest Meredith surprised a violent intruder when she returned home, and was attacked and killed at that time. The physiology is the strongest card in that stack.

The prosecution want her to have died at 11.30. WHY? I need something absolutely rock-solid to counterbalance the physiology, and even then I don't think I'd believe it because the physiology is pretty unanswerable.

So, humour me. Why is anyone even contemplating a hypothesis that Meredith died at 11.30, short of maybe evidence that she didn't eat her pizza with her friends, but instead took it home with her and ate it when she got in?

Rolfe.
 
Sophie -
Massei pg24
"she indicated that they had left the house at around 20:45 pm."

Micheli
"LATER SOPHIE SAYS NOW SHE REMEMBERS GETTING HOME AROUND 8:55 pm"

It is a 6 minutewalk from Amy and Robyn's to Meredith cottage.
It was only a 2 minute walk to Sophie's and then another 4 to Meredith's

Sophie is not sure exactly what time they left. Her first statement works perfectly with MK arriving home 8:51 - 8:53 p.m.

What other female figure wearing a white or light blue jacket walking toward the cottage would there have been caught on the CCTV that night?

Sophie is not sure of the exact time. The timestamp doesn't lie. The figure of MK was caught on CCTV arriving home at 8:51- 8:53 p.m.


I agree - the figure captured on CCTV at the timestamped time of 8.41pm (which other information indicates was an actual time of around 8.51-8.53pm) was almost certainly Meredith Kercher.

To me, the single biggest corroborator of a confrontation and attack at around 9pm is Meredith's aborted phone call to her mother, and the failure to make any attempt to call her back. Meredith's mother was quite seriously ill and in hospital at the time, and Meredith apparently called her every day (and sometimes more than once a day) to check on her condition and to have a chat. Meredith had not called her mother at all on the 1st November; it would therefore be very strange for her to have arrived back at the cottage just before 9pm, and to have lounged around for two and a half hours doing apparently nothing at all (no books out, no laptop up and running, etc) without phoning her mother, before being confronted and attacked at some point around 11.30pm - as per Massei's version.

I believe that Meredith arrived back at the cottage at around 8.53pm (as seen on the CCTV images). I believe that she decided to call her mother pretty much immediately upon her arrival home. An important factor here is that Meredith had slept late that day after a late and boozy Halloween night. The evidence suggests that she had got up in the early afternoon (probably feeling a little tired and hung over), had grabbed something light to eat, and had then headed off to her friends' house, where she spent the hours between around 4pm and 8.50pm in the company of others. She would therefore have had little opportunity to phone her mother at a point before 8.55pm.

Furthermore, I would imagine that she might have imposed upon herself a cut-off time for phoning, since her mother was seriously ill and would need to sleep undisturbed (plus the hospital might have discouraged calls beyond a certain time in the evening). I think it's therefore unlikely that Meredith would want to call much later than around 9pm UK time - 10pm Italian time. I would therefore imagine that as soon as Meredith parted from Sophie, the phone call to her mother would have been at the forefront of her thoughts: she would know that she wanted to make her daily call to her mother, and she would also know that she needed to place the call fairly soon, before it got too late.

I think therefore that Meredith decided that as soon as she got back into the cottage, she would go to her room and call her mother. I believe that this is what she was in the process of doing - I think she had pulled up the number and pressed to dial, when suddenly she was either alerted by a noise in the house or she was confronted face-to-face by Guede. Either way, I think she made the conscious decision to terminate the call in order to deal with this new situation. This explains why the call made no network connection by showed as a dialled number in Meredith's handset memory. There is no evidence to suggest that there was any network drop out or coverage issue in the vicinity of the girls' cottage on that night: the only reasonable conclusion is that this call was deliberately terminated before it had a change to connect through to the network.

Of course, once Meredith had decided (in my version of events) to terminate the call in order to either investigate the noise or face up to a confrontation with Guede, the situation quickly escalated leading up to her murder with sexual assault. To me, there can be no explanation as to why Meredith did not try again to phone her mother that night, other than that she was attacked very shortly after the 8.56pm aborted call.

To me, it's almost offensively laughable to suggest (as Mignini and Massei concluded) that Meredith made an attempt to call her mother which failed (for whatever reason), but then spent the following two and a half hours loafing around without ever even making another attempt to call. And bear in mind that, after all, even if there had been a network problem in the vicinity of the girls' cottage (which in any case there's no reason to suggest was the case), there's no logical reason why Meredith wouldn't have tried to call again some 5-10 minutes (say) after the aborted 8.56pm call. Even if the network were still having connection problems*, this later call attempt would have been displayed on Meredith's handset - overwriting the 8.56pm attempt. So the evidence shows that Meredith didn't even try to call her mother again after 8.56pm.

*In this regard, it's possible that there was an extremely temporary coverage problem which might have resulted in the 8.56pm call being dropped and terminated automatically, but only for a few seconds. If there had been a continuous coverage problem from the cells which covered the cottage (i.e. a problem lasting from at least 8.56pm through to, say, 10pm), the network would have logged the problem and identified it. My own view is that there was never even a momentary coverage problem, that the 8.56pm call was terminated manually by Meredith, and that she made no further attempt to call.
 
I just want to know what evidence there is that's strong enough to outweigh what we've discussed about the time of death. Logic, common sense and physiology suggest Meredith surprised a violent intruder when she returned home, and was attacked and killed at that time. The physiology is the strongest card in that stack.

The prosecution want her to have died at 11.30. WHY? I need something absolutely rock-solid to counterbalance the physiology, and even then I don't think I'd believe it because the physiology is pretty unanswerable.

So, humour me. Why is anyone even contemplating a hypothesis that Meredith died at 11.30, short of maybe evidence that she didn't eat her pizza with her friends, but instead took it home with her and ate it when she got in?

Rolfe.


The only reason why Mignini moved the ToD to 11.30-11.40pm was that it fitted in with one version of events given by Curatolo (one of multiple versions, it should be pointed out - all the others were completely useless to the prosecution...), and with the testimony of the alleged earwitnesses. It also meant that Mignini could sidestep the annoying (to him) presence of the broken down car opposite the cottage, which was there between around 10.30pm and 11.20-11.30pm. The occupants of the car all stated with apparent certainty that there was no visible or audible activity inside the cottage while they were there (and most of the time they were sitting in silence waiting for the tow truck to arrive). Furthermore, they saw nobody enter or leave the cottage during all that time - and they had a direct view of the well-lit porch and front door.

The presence of the broken-down car meant that Mignini knew he had to go with a ToD of either pre-10.30pm or post-11.30pm. And since he knew that he had a pretty weak case for pre-10.30pm (he'd have had to discard the testimony of Curatolo and the two alleged earwitnesses as either mistaken or unreliable, as none of their testimony was compatible with a pre-10.30 ToD), he went with the 11.30-11.40 option. And Massei bought it wholesale (even though there was contradictory medical evidence sitting there right under his nose), and the defence failed abjectly in its duty to show just how ridiculous this ToD was.
 
That (the last post but one) does it for me. Completely. Though I can see why, tactically, the defence might want to go for a rather later time-slot "to be on the safe side".

Where is the evidence that weighs against this? There simply isn't.

Rolfe.
 
Curatolo - he's the drug addict that was probably talking about a different day? Disco buses not running, right? So if all they have is that someone heard a scream, later - colour me unimpressed.

Rolfe.
 
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