Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

It most certainly is - must I cite it for you.

Pay attention to the next sentence...





I presume we're definitely backtracked from the topic of evidence for the late ToD? We're settled there is no such, right?

 

[platonov]

Pay attention to the next sentence...





I presume we're definitely backtracked from the topic of evidence for the late ToD? We're settled there is no such, right?

No - you tried to move from this

C with the other evidence that she was killed soon after arriving home.

C False - this is not what the evidence shows. In fact the converse.

into first a Q about Curatolo and now a demand that I list all the evidence. After 50K posts I don't feel the need for such a broad recap.

Now how are we doing on 'Comodi's lies' ?

 

[Katody Matrass]

snip

OK, in your opinion there is evidence showing the converse which would be she wasn't killed soon after arriving home. That means some later ToD. Simples
You're not willing to even hint what kind of evidence it is.
I was trying to encourage you - maybe you meant the fragrant Toto? maybe something else? You're not cooperating.
I'm afraid it's because you know that you can only mention laughable things like Toto or Nara's bladder. They are doubly laughable in comparison with the hard facts of phone recordings and autopsy findings.

If you meant something else i.e. there's no such evidence at all then we're settled and in agreement

Now how are we doing on 'Comodi's lies' ?

Simples, again. She misled the court, the jury and Amanda by inventing a non-existent phone call at 12:00. Amanda's defense dropped the ball hopelessly by not objecting and correcting her immediately.

 

[Kaosium]

No - you tried to move from this

C with the other evidence that she was killed soon after arriving home.

C False - this is not what the evidence shows. In fact the converse.

into first a Q about Curatolo and now a demand that I list all the evidence. After 50K posts I don't feel the need for such a broad recap.

Now how are we doing on 'Comodi's lies' ?

I think what Katody is trying to get at is the 'evidence' for the late ToD amounted to Massei ignoring science and the badly conused ( ) smack dealer who wasn't sure what day it was.

Now, you like to make fun of LondonJohn's charts, thus I must assume you know what they mean. Let us give you the unlikely outlier, 7PM, as the start of the meal, roughly what percent chance is there that Meredith was still alive at 10 PM with an empty duodenum?

 

[Kaosium]

Sorry, I neglected to post this earlier:



I've glanced at it, but haven't really read it in detail.

I have heard it is entirely inscrutable when rendered in google-Italian, thus I've not attempted it. He referred to it in his CNN interview, not seeming to understand how starting investigations on people could be considered invasive.

The one concerning the "accusation" of Patrick is being appealed concurrently with the murder charges (and the "staged burglary", etc.). As for the rest, as far as I know the prosecution is still proceeding with the charges, and I honestly have very little idea of how likely a conviction is. I think the fact that the charges haven't yet been laughed out of court (as they should be) is a bad sign, quite frankly. My hope is that an acquittal by the Hellmann court -- especially if the motivation were to acknowledge the harsh nature of Amanda's interrogation -- will create pressure on the authorities to abandon these (frankly dystopian) prosecutions.

Thank you, I suspect pressure may be necessary as well. I don't think some of these authorities have ever felt the kind of scrutiny the press normally gives their government for instance. I found that difficult to believe at first, that the police and courts could get away with just about anything, considering their government officials are often the subject of disparagement.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

becoming a suspect

I don't recall where I read the time of his arrest, but if I find a citation, I will post it. Andrew Seliber was a close friend of Ms. Knox, but they were not sexually intimate. The question Maresca asked Seliber is irrelevant to the crime and is therefore inappropriate, IMO, and Mr. Seliber rightly declined to answer. Maresca's comment about forensics shows fecklessness on his part.

I suspect I was mistaken with respect to the time of his arrest being around 1:00 AM. It was probably later, but I am still searching for a definitive citation. However, my larger point is that Amanda was really a suspect earlier than 1:45. Once Raffaele signed a statement, Amanda might (and IMO should) have been legally considered a suspect.

 

[Draca]

Rolfe,

As I say, I need to get up to speed on the TOD issue. However, since Meredith didn't get home until after 21:00, we seem to already have a problem with a TOD that could not have been:

'very much later than nine o'clock' ?

The timestamp on the CCTV video of Meredith Kercher arriving home was 8:41 p.m. The clock was proven to be 10-12 minutes slow by the Sollecito defense in regards to what time the postal police arrived. 8:41 p.m. with the adjusment for the CCTV clock being slow has her arriving home 8:51 - 8:53 p.m.

Giving time for the attack and dying time I would guess she died around 9:15 - 9:30 p.m.


Rolfe,

If MK was attacked shortly after arriving home would her stomach stop processing at that point due to fight or flight response?

 

[Dan O.]

I suspect I was mistaken with respect to the time of his arrest. However, my larger point is that Amanda was really a suspect earlier than 1:45. Once Raffaele signed a statement, Amanda might (and IMO should) have been legally considered a suspect.

You are not necessarily mistaken. One of the officers testified that they were so concerned that Raffaele would put up a fuss when they tried to arrest him that she went out to prevent Amanda from leaving if he should start yelling. They don't want Amanda thinking that she is a suspect until they get some statement they can use. They would have let Raffaele sit quietly in his interrogation room while they tighten the screws on Amanda. Once Amanda starts screaming though, they have to arrest Raffaele. Some time shortly after 1am would be about right.

I have no doubt that they should have both been legally considered suspects when the police formulated there plan to bring in a dozen officers for an all night interrogation session.

 

[platonov]

Have the defence dropped the ball again ?

<snip>

Simples, again. She misled the court, the jury and Amanda by inventing a non-existent phone call at 12:00. Amanda's defense dropped the ball hopelessly by not objecting and correcting her immediately.

If you say so (now) ?? but as its in Massei [the 'forgetting' of the 12.47 call ] surely the defence have dealt with it [picked up the ball ] in the appeal docs.

'Comodi's Lie' - which caused all this apparently.

See Link or Link

Originally Posted by Katody Matrass LINK

...............

To clarify, when I wrote that both Massei and Amanda were tricked, I meant strictly the fact that both of them didn't know that Comodi was talking about the 12:47 phone call. It is very clear in the transcript excerpt katy_did posted

......................

The fact that even Massei was tricked makes me think it's probable the jury also understood it exactly as Comodi intended: That Amanda made a suspicious phone call at 12:00 before anything happened and revealed in that call knowledge of facts that she could know about only after discovering the break-in
.................

I don't agree. Even if Comodi's point were not in the motivation (yet it is there) impressions of the jury still definitely influenced the verdict.

Have the defence dropped the ball again ?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

hipsters

I have no doubt that they should have both been legally considered suspects when the police formulated there plan to bring in a dozen officers for an all night interrogation session.

Good points. And Dr. Giobbi was mathematically sure that he said to bring them both in. For ILE to pretend that they were not suspects is only so much hip swiveling.

 

[platonov]

I think what Katody is trying to get at is the 'evidence' for the late ToD amounted to Massei ignoring science and the badly conused ( ) smack dealer who wasn't sure what day it was.

Now, you like to make fun of LondonJohn's charts, thus I must assume you know what they mean. Let us give you the unlikely outlier, 7PM, as the start of the meal, roughly what percent chance is there that Meredith was still alive at 10 PM with an empty duodenum?

Well we know she was dead by 8 or 8.30 apparently - according to the 'science' - based on a 5.30 or 6.00 meal start time.

............ but in the scenario you present, using London Johns stats there is a 123% probability she was dead by 9.30.

 

[JREF2010]

What I quoted was from the main body of Massei Motivation. We may agree that Massei can't get simple facts straight - it's not the first time, similar mess Massei made of the cell towers data and of Ronchi's testimony.

Katody,

I was a bit confused on the cell tower info and noticed you mentioned "cant get simple facts straight".

Concerning the text from Patrick, that Massei says proves, Amanda was not at Raffaeles.

But the cell-tower data appears to be a contradiction in the Massei report or translation. Does anyone know for sure if this is a translation error or a Massei misinterpretation?

pg322
20:18:12 Amanda received the text from Patrick and the translation doc/Massei notes this was not at Raffaeles place.
tower/sector/cell= Via dell Aquila 5 -Torre dell Accquedotto sector 3

pg 323
12:11:54 & 12:12:35
"thus compatible with Sollecitos house"
tower/sector/cell= Via dell Aquila 5 -Torre dell Accquedotto sector 3

 

[Katody Matrass]

the converse?

Well we know she was dead by 8 or 8.30 apparently - according to the 'science' - based on a 5.30 or 6.00 meal start time.

............ but in the scenario you present, using London Johns stats there is a 123% probability she was dead by 9.30.

From the clowning I read that we can take your evidence of the converse as conceded and settled as nonexistent

 

[Katody Matrass]

Katody,

I was a bit confused on the cell tower info and noticed you mentioned "cant get simple facts straight".

Concerning the text from Patrick, that Massei says proves, Amanda was not at Raffaeles.

But the cell-tower data appears to be a contradiction in the Massei report or translation. Does anyone know for sure if this is a translation error or a Massei misinterpretation?

pg322
20:18:12 Amanda received the text from Patrick and the translation doc/Massei notes this was not at Raffaeles place.
tower/sector/cell= Via dell Aquila 5 -Torre dell Accquedotto sector 3

pg 323
12:11:54 & 12:12:35
"thus compatible with Sollecitos house"
tower/sector/cell= Via dell Aquila 5 -Torre dell Accquedotto sector 3

It's not translation^*), it's in the original, too. I don't have it at hand by I recall I once checked it out of curiosity. I don't remember but I hope defense contested the issue of cell coverage at Raffaele's.


*)although PMF also made some errors, always in favor of the prosecution IIRC.

 

[platonov]

I couldn't possibly comment

From the clowning I read that we can take your evidence of the converse as conceded and settled as nonexistent

You may describe it as 'clowning' - I couldn't possibly comment - but that's according to the 'science' as argued here.

It would be a mistake however to think that this has any bearing on the actual evidence that is being dealt with in the appeal.

 

[Katody Matrass]

It would be a mistake however to think that this has any bearing on the actual evidence that is being dealt with in the appeal.

I thought that defense filed Introna's 21:00-21:30 conclusion with the appeal and pointed out phone records evidence corroborating it. I thought Hellmann must address the appeal points one way or the other. But what do I know

 

[platonov]

I thought that defense filed Introna's 21:00-21:30 conclusion with the appeal and pointed out phone records evidence corroborating it. I thought Hellmann must address the appeal points one way or the other. But what do I know

Moving the goalposts again

I was referring to what you described as 'clowning' not the appeal docs.

Now back to 'Comodi's Lies'. You obviously missed my post upthread.
Have the defence dropped the ball again ?
Its very suspicious - perhaps they are in on it.

Or would you prefer to drop that subject ?
It seemed very important when last discussed - it went on for about 10 pages !

 

[Katody Matrass]

Moving the goalposts again
I was referring to what you described as 'clowning' not the appeal docs.

My apologies! I agree and sincerely hope that nothing resembling such arguing style will take place in the court

Now back to 'Comodi's Lies'. You obviously missed my post upthread.

From that post I see you missed the sentence I pointed out to you a while back today

Have the defence dropped the ball again ?
Its very suspicious - perhaps they are in on it.

Or would you prefer to drop that subject ?
It seemed very important when last discussed - it went on for about 10 pages !

Sure it did. While we settled the issue of your nonexistent evidence of the mysterious converse of yours - I'll very gladly revisit another thing you just dug out . What do you want to add? Do you disagree with something I said way back then?

 

[platonov]

Have the defence dropped the ball again ? - We will never know.

My apologies! I agree and sincerely hope that nothing resembling such arguing style will take place in the court

From that post I see you missed the sentence I pointed out to you a while back today


Sure it did. While we settled the issue of your nonexistent evidence of the mysterious converse of yours - I'll very gladly revisit another thing you just dug out . What do you want to add? Do you disagree with something I said way back then?

So you do want to drop the subject. OK

'Comodi's Lies' are no longer part of the canon apparently.
Pity, as that had some very exciting features - conspiracy, mind wipes, retrocausality other stuff.

 

[Katody Matrass]

snip snap

Yes? go on.

You can ask questions also, don't be shy