Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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The black box for one of the towers was found? I hadn't heard. Thanks.

did you even bother to WATCH the video about psa 1771? Cuz there was nothing mentioning the blackboxes in the towers...

stay on topic..

what did the crash of psa 1771 look like?
focus... put down the bong... focus.
 
You do know what color black boxes are, don't you? If someone saw an orange bit of metal they would have reported it. It would have been analyzed to determine whether it was part of a black box.

By all means show me a photo of a black box that has been recovered that has slammed into a concrete wall, and then sat in a fire for 99 days which is still orange...

pretty please...

i can show you photos of black boxes that aren't black anymore which were recovered from aircraft crashes.... several... I'm just asking for one...

now stay on topic... put down the bong .... answer the questions about psa 1771
 
All FOUR of them? You must be kidding.
All four of them were smashed into a steel structure, exposed to sufficient heat to totally destroy the temper of their metalic shells and subjected to the pounding of at least seventy stories worth of concrete slabs for about 14-26 seconds, then buried under thousands of tons on steel and boulders and pebbles that had once been solid floor slabs, then subjected to further heating from Class A fires in the rubble pile. They were only engineered to survive step #1 of that sequence. Per the oral histories offered by various FDNY personnel, no metal object larger than a door knob is known to have survived the collapse in a totally recognizeable condition.

True, there was one report by a witness whose whereabouts at the time cannot be positively verified that FBI agents did pick up two black boxes the day after the collapse and ran ran off with them, never to be heard from again.

Somewhere in the Great Beyond, Baron von Muenchhausen is doing a face-palm.
 
Just so people understand: That Counterpunch article I'm seeing linked in the responses is full of fundamental errors. For example: Mike Bellone is not a firefighter.
September 28, 2005 Wednesday
HEADLINE: 9-11 'HERO' SWIPED OUR GEAR: FDNY
Daily News, New York, Sports Final Edition

FIRE MARSHALS ARRESTED a self-proclaimed "honorary firefighter" for allegedly touring the country with pilfered FDNY gear to promote a 9/11 book, officials said yesterday.

Michael Bellone, 51, of Brooklyn, who volunteered at Ground Zero and later collaborated on a book about the experience, showed off the equipment during speeches to schoolchildren, authorities said.

After fielding complaints, FDNY investigators questioned Bellone and discovered that a breathing mask, air tank and other gear he was using had been missing from the department since October 2001, officials said.

Bellone said the items were given to his charity - Trauma Response Assistance for Children (TRAC) Team - but would not identify who did so, sources said.

"It's very ghoulish," said a fire source. "He may have helped firefighters at the time, but now he's making a living on this."...
September 28, 2005 Wednesday
HEADLINE: 9/11-CHARITY BIG BUSTED
The New York Post

Fire marshals yesterday busted the chairman of a controversial Ground Zero charity for possessing stolen FDNY property...
An FDNY source said Bellone's group is not registered with the state as a charitable organization.
"It wasn’t until two years later that we began getting complaints about him," Tinney said. "We have one honorary firefighter and that is a child from the Make-A-Wish Foundation. Aside from the child, it is normally the chiefs and those above who are made honorary firefighters and he (Bellone) isn’t one. He’s saying he was made an honorary firefighter by New York Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta. That’s a fallacy."
http://web.archive.org/web/20060821...local_stories/2005/October_05/10182005_10.asp
As far as DeMasi and Bellone's specific claim, this was dealt with before. Here's a post by Gravy back from 2006:
Actually, it was one firefighter, Nicholas Demasi, and his friend "honorary firefighter" Mike Bellone, neither of whom will confirm the story since the self-published book Behind the Scenes: Ground Zero came out in 2003. Their story is not credible in any way. Here's what Demasi said:
At one point I was assigned to take Federal Agents around the site to search for the black boxes from the planes. There were a total of four black boxes. We found three.


How were they searching? They were driving a golf-cart like ATV. Somehow, while driving around the site months after the collapses, amongst billions of pounds of rubble, they turn up three “black boxes” from two aircraft! These devices must have been on top of the rubble, yet they remained unseen by the thousands of other people there (the boxes are orange, not black, and it is highly unlikely that recorders from AA11 would have wound up in the same vicinity as recorders from UA175).


Then, this huge news doesn’t get reported at the time and Demasi doesn’t tell the 9/11 Commission or anyone else? Instead he tells the story in a self-published book? Any red flags going up?


The only article referencing Bellone's version that I’ve been able to find is in the American Free Press, and we’ve seen how accurate and honest their reporting is. In the undated article, which states that the recorders were found “before January, 2002,” Bellone says of the FBI agents on the scene,
"They confronted me and told me to not to say anything,” recalled Bellone, referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in the back of DeMasi’s ATV. “I said, ‘Give me a good reason.’ When they couldn’t, I told them I wouldn’t shut up about it.

“Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It’s the truth, and Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have.” Source


If that is so, what has Mr. Bellone done to get the word out? Has he filed lawsuits or even FOIA requests? He mentions that only one other newspaper has interviewed him. Has he taken his story to the legitimate press? How about a website? Nothing.


The only “corroboration” I’ve been able to find for DeMasi and Bellone’s story is this anonymous-source piece at Counterpunch:
Now there is stronger evidence that something is amiss than simply the alleged non-recovery of all four of those boxes. A source at the National Transportation Safety Board, the agency that has the task of deciphering the date from the black boxes retrieved from crash sites-including those that are being handled as crimes and fall under the jurisdiction of the FBI-says the boxes were in fact recovered and were analyzed by the NTSB.

"Off the record, we had the boxes," the source says. "You'd have to get the official word from the FBI as to where they are, but we worked on them here."

The official word from the NTSB is that the WTC crash site black boxes never turned up. "No recorders were recovered from the World Trade Center," says the NTSB's Lopatkiewicz. "At least none were delivered to us by the FBI." He adds that the agency has "always had a good relationship' with the FBI and that in all prior crime-related crashes or flight incidents, they have brought the boxes to the NTSB for analysis. Source
Fact of the matter is, this has been dealt with. It's not a credible story. Again, I refer everyone to the 9/11 Myths link, as well as the previous threads on this issue.

Let's also understand this: Between the radar data, the cell and airphone calls, and the recovered jet debris from ground zero, we do have an evidence-based narrative established. Even if we get credible proof from credible sources that something was found and suppressed by authorities, that still doesn't rise to the level of undoing all that radar data, cell/airfone evidence, etc. It would have to be demonstrated how the supposedly recovered yet suppressed FDRs overturns all that data. Occam's Razor tells us that, whatever was recovered by DeMasi and sighted by Bellone was simply not the FDRs. This wouldn't be the first time conspiracy advocates massaged their presentation of facts ("free fall", "steel melted", "explosions", "pull it", "planes flew nearly an hour without being intercepted") in order to make their allegations seem reasonable.
 
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff12202005.html


9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center Attacks Found by Firefighters, Analyzed by NTSB, Concealed by FBI

By DAVE LINDORFF

You probably think black boxes are indestructible as well, right?

I guess this means you also believe NO PLANES hit the WTC, right? Because they found the black boxes for U93 and F77 and a much more of a majority of truthers claim these crashes didn't even happen at all. So if they are going to fake the black boxes for U93 and F77, why not just fake the WTC black boxes if its so obvious they should have recovered them?
 
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Well I don't think they even think that far. It's merely a "Well, why don't/can't 'they' (fill-in-the-objection-of-the-moment)" argument. Sure, the FDRs are designed to survive a lot, but my God... this was impact with a skyscraper at 400+ miles per hour. I'd have hoped that the devices would've survived too, but I don't see any reason to be surprised that they didn't.

These back boxes are designed with a view to surviving many kinds of crashes, including high-speed, head-on crashes[ETA], and the ensuing fire that might consume the plane and its fuel[/ETA]. The bloack boxes of AA77 and UA93 confirm that these design specs are indeed often met.

In the case of the twin towers, however, we have the strain of high-speed, head-on plane crashes PLUS [ETA]possibly heating of the black boxes to several hundreds of degrees, which would have greatly reduced their strenght, PLUS[/ETA] the catastrophic collapse of 300,000 tons of hard stuff, releasing the destructive energy of a small nuclear bomb. After that, they were subjected to weeks of underground fires.

Maybe the boxes survived the crashes, with bumps and bruises. But bumped and bruised boxes are not designed to then survive the enormous pressures of a building collapse[ETA], especially when heated significantly[/ETA]. The boxes are painted with bright colours, but one can doubt that the paint would survive weeks of exposure to heat, fires and aggressive chemicals.
 
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http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff12202005.html


9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center Attacks Found by Firefighters, Analyzed by NTSB, Concealed by FBI

By DAVE LINDORFF
Wow, you are moving back-wards faster than free-fall; from December 19, 2005, we have a moron on missing black boxes.

You found an idiot on 911 issues, someone so stupid he thinks not finding the black boxes after tow collapse releasing the energy of over 130 TONS of TNT is a mystery, and you posted 5 years old moronic claptrap so stupid it was ignored as nonsense. You found 5 year old lies, you sure are gullible spreading lies and delusions. Old delusions.

Don't need the black boxes, we have RADAR data showing Flight 11 and 175 impacted the WTC towers. Why have you failed to understand the simple stuff on 911? 19 terrorists did 911, you can't figure this out?​
 
Wow, you are moving back-wards faster than free-fall; from December 19, 2005, we have a moron on missing black boxes.

You found an idiot on 911 issues, someone so stupid he thinks not finding the black boxes after tow collapse releasing the energy of over 130 TONS of TNT is a mystery, and you posted 5 years old moronic claptrap so stupid it was ignored as nonsense. You found 5 year old lies, you sure are gullible spreading lies and delusions. Old delusions.

Don't need the black boxes, we have RADAR data showing Flight 11 and 175 impacted the WTC towers. Why have you failed to understand the simple stuff on 911? 19 terrorists did 911, you can't figure this out?​

Global release of the energy of over 130 TONS of TNT into its basic footprint.

Yeah that's going to happen.
Yeah that's going to happen twice.
Yeah that's going to happen three times.
 
Global release of the energy of over 130 TONS of TNT into its basic footprint.

Yeah that's going to happen.
Yeah that's going to happen twice.
Yeah that's going to happen three times.

gish galloping.

stay on topic, finish topic then move on.

PSA 1771... focus.

Then we can move into the indestructable flight recorders.

focus.
 
Global release of the energy of over 130 TONS of TNT into its basic footprint. ...
E=mgh, something you don't understand.

Basic footprint, a WTC is one acre, the area of debris on 911 was over 19 acres. Darn, you don't understand basic footprint, add that to your long list of failed claims and delusions on 911.

You post lies and delusions over 5 years old, you are self-debunking.
 
And he answered you with a very general answer.

Until you can come up with a plausible theory of how it was done, how can we possibly give you a rough estimate of the number of people involved?

If someone is claiming to know how many people it would take, then they must also be claiming a scenario in which this estimate was made. I wasn't asking for someone to make an estimate, I asked for an estimate that was already made.

As for the common narrative, the number was probably less than 30. 19 hijackers, some handlers, the top planners and the money folks who knew what was going on.

They followed the KISS rule perfectly. 5 people per plane, hijack, crash. Wowsers... amazingly complicated plan.

Could the military/black ops groups do the same, or similar? yup... if they wanted to, they could probably kill tens of thousands with less than 100 knowing (w/out nuclear weapons or lab designed bioweapons... just from easily accessable items...)

So come up with a narrative which explains the day, and then i'm sure we'd love to estimate the numbers of people... until then this is just truthers dancing on mouthpiece of a bong.

A bunch of weaklings overpowering 4 commercial airliners with exacto knives seems less likely to me.

The US military and US intelligence agencies, however, specialize in compartmentalizing information, subverting security, and just generally being brutal. So for some to think this is "impossible" is just ridiculous. And no, I'm not interested in coming up with a narrative. I'm not a storyteller, nor am I claiming that the conspiracy was less than complex. Someone claimed to know how many people it would take and I wanted more information about that.

With the Fort worth demoltion (mentioned in another thread) there was over 7 MILES of wiring... all of that was in the debris.

Wires in building debris? Stop the presses.

there would have been blasting caps. there would have been some unexploded explosives, some residue.... what were the explosives held in? theyre would have been debris. Since everything was hand sorted down to things less than the size of a quarter, lots of that would have been found. Yet... nothing. Not one person comes forward to state "gee, I found some interesting stuff on 9/11" Not one...

<here comes, but they weren't expressly looking for CD/blasting caps and wouldn't notice it.....>

Does the fact that you thought yourself clever enough to preempt the above argument render it null and void? "Oh, and here comes the 'Earth is round' argument."

Frankly, we don't know what type of explosives would have been used. It's commonly believed that the US military has the most advanced technology on the planet, so comparing this type of job with a commercial one is valueless.

Your entire argument is predicated on conjecture.
 
E=mgh, something you don't understand.

Basic footprint, a WTC is one acre, the area of debris on 911 was over 19 acres. Darn, you don't understand basic footprint, add that to your long list of failed claims and delusions on 911.

You post lies and delusions over 5 years old, you are self-debunking.

I guess explosions impaling buildings with multi ton beams would expand the footprint.

towerexplosions2.jpg



http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7053335&postcount=203
 
I guess explosions impaling buildings with multi ton beams would expand the footprint.

[qimg]http://www.reopen911.org/ReOpen911_2007Archive/images/towerexplosions2.jpg[/qimg]


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7053335&postcount=203

ROFLMAO..
LIE in the picture. The beams weren't shot straight sideways... they fell in an ARC... go back to school... math is your friend.


OMG...

so these explosions capable of throwing those steel beams... I'm sure EVERYONE with miles heard them right?

I once had a 500 lbs rock thrown over 500 feet from a blast that was happening next door. The blast was so loud that it was clearly heard a mile away. That is for 500 lbs, to be thrown 500 feet.

You are talking hundreds of TONS.... how much explosives would be required?

Now that argument from ignorance and incredulity has been dealt with... how about we focus on psa 1771...

focus
 
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... A bunch of weaklings overpowering 4 commercial airliners with exacto knives seems less likely to me.
...
The pilots are strapped in, they face forward, they were killed sitting down. It was too easy to kill people who are not expecting it. You lost this round, you want to believe in fantasy and delusions, but can't handle reality of "weaklings" killing people. Are you being a bigot with the weaklings bit?

It takes 19, they are dead, they failed, you failed, you have something in common with those you are apologizing for by making or supporting lies about 911. Publish your claims, find out you have failed claims.
 
As I think has already been pointed out, the argument from incredulity is neither new nor insightful.

Dave

You haven't supported your argument. You claim that stage 1 buckled all of the columns in the section of WTC 7 that collapsed in stage 2, that all of that steel was buckled before it collapsed, hence the free fall. There is nothing to support this.

In other words, you're making claims that aren't supported, neither by you nor any report.
 
The pilots are strapped in, they face forward, they were killed sitting down. It was too easy to kill people who are not expecting it. You lost this round, you want to believe in fantasy and delusions, but can't handle reality of "weaklings" killing people. Are you being a bigot with the weaklings bit?

It takes 19, they are dead, they failed, you failed, you have something in common with those you are apologizing for by making or supporting lies about 911. Publish your claims, find out you have failed claims.

Have you read about these hijackers? Hardly cold-blooded killer types according to their flight instructors. And they used these box cutters to open up jugulars did they?

A bigot? Getting desperate?
 
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