Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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Yes, people only ever find things they are looking for. And this is dumb for many reasons. Here's an older post of mine demonstrating this:
Seeing as how they were probably smashed to smithereens there almost certainly wasn't enough of them to find to be sure you had found any one piece of them. Which means they probably lay in the Fresh Kills landfill to this very day.

As Travis here has quite well pointed out, conspiracy peddlers often mischaracterize elements of 9/11 - in this case, the search through and recovery of the Twin Towers debris, and anything that might have been in it - in order to show their proposals in a more favorable light. Yes, indeed, it is possible for people to miss what they're not looking for. But who says that's the case here? It takes more than insinuation. And the fact of the matter is, the debris was examined very closely.
And although this is a fire scene, it is also a crime scene, which means a large unit of crime scene investigators is present, working from a tent at the corner of West St. and Liberty.
NYPD Detective first grade Hal Sherman: "At Ground Zero the CSU is responsible for photographing the site, recovering physical evidence, documenting body parts and any other physical evidence like weapons or a wallet, manning the temporary morgue at the site (as well as the city morgue up on 28th Street), inspecting debris that leaves the site, and inspecting debris as it gets sifted out at Staten Island. ...All evidence is documented– airplane parts were essential to the beginning investigation, but now they look for hair, fibers, glass particles, semen, ballistics. ...We ID every part. Pillars and beams are swiped for hair, tissue and blood, evaporated body evidence. We have two police officers with mortuary degrees, and they are either in the medical examiner's office or the police lab, because you must be a sworn police officer to take evidence. "
There are two dump sites. One is in Fort Hamilton, Brooklyn, and the other is in Great Kills, Staten Island. At each location police Investigations Unit detectives and FBI agents are spotting and sifting through every truckload, searching for the flight recorders of the planes and for any remains of the victims.
From Report From Ground Zero. Smith, Dennis. New York: Penguin, 2002, page 194, 326-327, and 201 respectively.

"Law enforcement authorities survey the material for evidence. Only then is it released to a scrap processor under an existing long-term contract with the NYC Department of Sanitation to purchase and then recycle scrap metal."
http://www.americanrecycler.com/11wtc.html
That's an awful close examination of the debris. And there were a lot of eyes on it:
24 local, state, and federal agencies participated, with as many as 1,000 workers a day • 17,000 tons of material were processed daily. • 55 FBI Evidence Response Teams worked the site -- over 1,000 agents -- plus FBI medics, safety officers, and other specialists. • New York Evidence Response Team members worked over 8,000 hours at the site, at the morgue, and at Ground Zero.
(http://www2.fbi.gov/page2/nov03/nyhs112703.htm)

Guiliani had promised that 100 percent of the victims would be identified, and the way he chose to do that was to haul everything to the Staten Island Landfill, lay it out and let the agents (NYPD, FBI, Secret Service, CIA, and K-9 units) go through the debris looking for evidence.
The first thing the P&J team did when they took over the site was to make life easier for the agents. The debris was being laid out on the ground, and the agents (about 2,000 of them working 24/7) would have to rake through the debris looking for body parts, personal effects, and evidence at their feet. We brought in Picking Stations, which placed the debris at waist level on conveyor belts. This immediately cut down on the fatigue level and increased productivity.
• 14,968 workers had been through the PPE process
• 43,600 people (39,795 NYPD, 6,212 non-NYPD) had been through the Site Specific Indoctrination
• Over 1.7 million man hours had been worked
• Over 55,000 discrete pieces of evidence had been recovered
• 4,257 body parts had been recovered
Anatomy: World Trade Center/Staten Island Landfill Recovery Operation
That says a lot about how carefully and closely the went through everything.

So, is it possible for them to have missed some things? Of course. But think about this: It's not only residue that would be a sign of either explosives or incendiaries use. It would be gross signs of their effects: Spalled steel for explosives; grossly molten steel for incendiaries. It would also be leftover remains of the entire system that would've been used (i.e. detonation cord for explosives, and God-knows-what for incendiaries). Could everyone involved in the recovery chain have missed individual signs of any of that? Sure. But as a whole, could everyone have missed every sign? I need to be convinced of that. Given that we already know there were survivors in close proximity to a column in a stairwell, and given that the steel was also examined by NIST, and the collapse initiation mechanism known, that puts the possibility of that even further down. And given that we're missing broad characteristic remains/effects of either explosives (many instances of severe barotrauma, shattered glass in every building within several blocks) or incendiaries (hardened pools of previously molten steel), that possibility really starts approaching zero. So sure, it is possible for investigators and cleanup personnel to have missed things. But in light of everything that's known, as well as the fact that the use of such materials would not have been subtle, I'd have to say that the silence from all those people is because there was nothing to find in the first place. It's up to the truthers to explain how all those people examining the debris as closely as they were would've missed the signs. And to date, they have not.

The possibility that they missed things is of course present. But it's unlikely. Look at the entirety of the narrative; that'll tell you why.
 
Oh, and with such careful, close examination of the towers, how could they have missed the remains of the flight data recorders? Well, those aren't broad and unsubtle, are they? Quite the opposite, they're small relative to the size of the towers to begin with, most likely were smashed to bits, as Travis noted, and not needed to be present in large numbers like components of a demolitions system would be. Truthers aren't talking merely a pair of strategically placed explosives, not when they're pointing out multiple instances of supposed "squibs" on floors well below the collapse front, and claiming internal collisions or explosions of equipment were explosives demolitions. But we are talking about only a pair of black boxes.

It's really wild that someone could argue on the one hand that broad, very obvious signs of destructive agents could easily be missed, while on the other hand wondering why two small, hand-holdable items that impacted at over 400 MPH should have been found. That's really pathological thinking there.
 
I think Truthers often think the "black" boxes were the size of refrigerators or something. And made out of Adamantium to be sure.
 
I think Truthers often think the "black" boxes were the size of refrigerators or something. And made out of Adamantium to be sure.

Well I don't think they even think that far. It's merely a "Well, why don't/can't 'they' (fill-in-the-objection-of-the-moment)" argument. Sure, the FDRs are designed to survive a lot, but my God... this was impact with a skyscraper at 400+ miles per hour. I'd have hoped that the devices would've survived too, but I don't see any reason to be surprised that they didn't.
 
Well I don't think they even think that far. It's merely a "Well, why don't/can't 'they' (fill-in-the-objection-of-the-moment)" argument. Sure, the FDRs are designed to survive a lot, but my God... this was impact with a skyscraper at 400+ miles per hour. I'd have hoped that the devices would've survived too, but I don't see any reason to be surprised that they didn't.

You do know what color black boxes are, don't you? If someone saw an orange bit of metal they would have reported it. It would have been analyzed to determine whether it was part of a black box.
 
You do know what color black boxes are, don't you? If someone saw an orange bit of metal they would have reported it. It would have been analyzed to determine whether it was part of a black box.

... cause there isn't thousands of other shredded things painted safety orange in two 110 story skyscrapers. Lets not forget their assumed locations relative to the GIANT fires.
 
You do know what color black boxes are, don't you? If someone saw an orange bit of metal they would have reported it. It would have been analyzed to determine whether it was part of a black box.

Yes. Orange. And if someone saw any of them, they'd be like WOW hey, let's report it.

But they didn't see any of them.
 
You do know what color black boxes are, don't you? If someone saw an orange bit of metal they would have reported it. It would have been analyzed to determine whether it was part of a black box.

But, most likely, the paint would not have beed orange anymore, but rather black, or gone......But hey, I am just being logical.....
 
You do know what color black boxes are, don't you?


After a high-speed impact, ~40 minutes of exposure to fire, an ~800 ft. drop amidst the debris of a collapsing building, and another few weeks potentially exposed to even more fire and/or high temperatures?

Probably not orange anymore...
 
Yes. Orange. And if someone saw any of them, they'd be like WOW hey, let's report it.

But they didn't see any of them.
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff12202005.html


9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center Attacks Found by Firefighters, Analyzed by NTSB, Concealed by FBI

By DAVE LINDORFF


But the FBI states, and also reported to the 9-11 Commission, that none of the recording devices from the two planes that hit the World Trade Center were ever recovered.

There has always been some skepticism about this assertion, particularly as two N.Y. City firefighters, Mike Bellone and Nicholas De Masi, claimed in 2004 that they had found three of the four boxes, and that Federal agents took them and told the two men not to mention having found them. (The FBI denies the whole story.) Moreover, these devices are almost always located after crashes, even if not in useable condition (and the cleanup of the World Trade Center was meticulous, with even tiny bone fragments and bits of human tissue being discovered so that almost all the victims were ultimately identified). As Ted Lopatkiewicz, director of public affairs at the National Transportation Safety Agency which has the job of analyzing the boxes' data, says, "It's very unusual not to find a recorder after a crash, although it's also very unusual to have jets flying into buildings."

Now there is stronger evidence that something is amiss than simply the alleged non-recovery of all four of those boxes. A source at the National Transportation Safety Board, the agency that has the task of deciphering the date from the black boxes retrieved from crash sites-including those that are being handled as crimes and fall under the jurisdiction of the FBI-says the boxes were in fact recovered and were analyzed by the NTSB.

"Off the record, we had the boxes," the source says. "You'd have to get the official word from the FBI as to where they are, but we worked on them here."
 
Apart from the thermite chips that were found, if you're not looking for residue you're not going to find any. That seems to be the gist of the bogus NIST "study."

Maybe, while we are looking for things, one of the trusters can enlighten us with where the four black boxes from planes that crashed into the towers are? Or more directly who took them?

There were not thermite chips found. Harrit's results were to be generous, flawed as has been explained to you. It's been explained to you to the point where you are now aware or reasonably should be expected to be aware that there were no thermite chips found. At this point to say there were thermite chips is clearly a lie. If you can't be bothered to apply some rigor to your meaningless hobby at least don't lie about it. This topic deserves better than you.
 
I have a hard time imagining any of the data on the boxes would have been usable or useful anyways. I mean what groundbreaking data from them was really needed?
 
Well of course it depends on exactly which truther theory we're dealing with.

Do we have to account for the number of people who operated the holograph machine that made the fake planes?

Or the pilot of the jet who fired the missile at the Pentagon and the people who later rushed in to plant burnt plane wreckage?

Or the number of people who operated voice changing devices that sounded like the people on the plane? Also we'd have to include the people who researched who would be on what flights and what their voices sounded like. Also their safe combinations.

Then there are all the people that would have been required to plant all the explosives for the clearly obvious controlled demolitions without being seen. Plus the people who invented explosives that make no sound. That's probably a pretty big number.

OH MY GOD! It all just became so clear to me. Not only are 9/11 ct'ers right but so are bigfoot enthusiasts! At least the ones keen enough to know that bigfeet exist but are invisible.

THEY USED INVISIBLE BIGFOOTS TO SECRETLY PLANT SILENT EXPLOSIVES IN THE WORLD TRADE TOWERS!!!


No no no..
just two scary kids and mothra.
 
I have a hard time imagining any of the data on the boxes would have been usable or useful anyways. I mean what groundbreaking data from them was really needed?

First off, the truthers would not believe the data recorders could have been found amongst all the debris, so they must have been planted. Second, they would not believe they survived with usable data (if at all). Thirdly, the data would have been faked.

You just can't win.

Eta: And if the black boxes had been found, it would have been very convenient that the data was lost.
 
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And to further this idiotic fallacy that simple knives and boxcutters (and remember we have audio tapes of them saying they had a bomb) could not get through security pre-9/11:

9 years later...
"TSA Misses Loaded .40 Caliber Handgun" http://www.boingboing.net/2010/12/17/tsa-misses-enormous.html

"TSA Misses Man with THREE Boxcutters" http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/tsa_staff_jet_blew_it_Y7NcXScFd0oS2HNvkypthP

"TSA Failure Rate at 70%": http://blog.tsa.gov/2010/12/70-detection-failure-rate-being.html

So, since 9/11, and all the hightened security, and all the "illegal searches" as Clayton would like to put, still those efforst fail. And he thinks it would be harder pre 9/11? He finds it funny? Sheer ignorance.


You left out my favourite example of TSA incompetence.
Adam Savage of mythbusters.

 
Isn't it kinda standard procedure to reassemble a commercial aircraft to determine the cause of a crash?

By all means produce the NTSB guidelines which states that every crash will be fully reassembled... look it up... please find it for us.

Or look up the NTSB mandate... what are they supposed to do...

it involves the difference between an unknown cause of the crash... and knowing the reason for the crash.... it is a rather big point.

ignorance and incredulity bites you in the ass again.
 
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