Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[carlitos]

Apart from the thermite chips that were found...

There were no "thermite chips" found anywhere. Stop saying that.

 

[sylvan8798]

Maybe, while we are looking for things, one of the trusters can enlighten us with where the four black boxes from planes that crashed into the towers are? Or more directly who took them?

Prove that you didn't take them.

 

[NoahFence]

Prove that you didn't take them.

....with a peer-reviewed paper.

 

[Oystein]

Apart from the thermite chips that were found, if you're not looking for residue you're not going to find any. That seems to be the gist of the bogus NIST "study."
...

In the case of thermite, they "found" some because they were looking for it even though there was no thermite.

...
[a question snipped]

Aaaand before you ask any question, how about going back and answering some of the many questions asked of you that you ignored, such as these:

...
And now the six (out of 8) questions from my last post that you chose to run away from like a cowardly weasly:

These four points are of course Wikipedia's take. (1) Did Bazant himself make four points explicitly? Do you know? (2) Did you read Bazant's paper(s)? Yes or no will do


(3) Do you agree with the full-blooded Americans at Purdue?

Northwestern probably hired Zdenek Bazant, because he is one of the world-leading scholars in his field (from your source: "the world leader in research on scaling in the mechanics of solids"). (4) What are your credentials?

(5) Are you arguing that US universities should not hire the best academics in the world in their respective fields because foreigners can't be trusted? Yes or no will do.

(6) Are you saying that experience is a bad thing in academics and engineering? The younger they are, the better? Yes or no will do.
(7) Clayton, how old are you?

(Oops, I miscounted - 7 out of 9 questions unanswered, not 6/8)

 

[beachnut]

Apart from the thermite chips that were found, if you're not looking for residue you're not going to find any. That seems to be the gist of the bogus NIST "study."

Maybe, while we are looking for things, one of the trusters can enlighten us with where the four black boxes from planes that crashed into the towers are? Or more directly who took them?

Jones made up lies about thermite to fool you into thinking there were thermite chips. This means you are gullible. No real journal would publish Jones' fake 911 lies so he had to start his own on-line journal. Because everyone knew his on-line Journal was full of nonsense, he also published the lies on thermite paper in a vanity journal, they had to pay. Why? No one would publish his fake paper in a real journal. You hooked up with the most nonsensical anti-intellectual group on earth, and you think you know everything.

The black boxes, that is the cockpit voice recorders, and flight data recorders, were most like crushed by the energy available in the WTC towers collapse. That is physics. I suspect you and physics are not on talking terms. The energy available for collapse is E=mgh. This energy is the greater than 130 TONS of TNT for each tower. I am an aircraft accident investigator, and can testify truthfully and correctly that the "black boxes" were not designed to survive the collapse of the WTC towers.

What are black boxes for? To help aircraft accident investigators understand how an aircraft or crew had an accident. 911 was not an accident, there is no need for the black boxes to solve why the planes crashed. What is it call when 911 truth seeks to make a big deal out of nothing?

No thermite chips, no black boxes, and you still have no idea what happen on 911. 10 years will be up, and you have not done well on this subject.

 

[NoahFence]

If Clayton provides an answer for all those questions I'll donate to the charity of his choice.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

He seems to think that the actual number has to be quite low by assuming a case in which all the thousands of people involved in cleanup and forensic investigations, + engineering were all either completely oblivious, dangerously incompetent, just plain stupid, or outright "trusters" as their new kick goes.

 

[Edx]

He seems to think that the actual number has to be quite low by assuming a case in which all the thousands of people involved in cleanup and forensic investigations, + engineering were all either completely oblivious, dangerously incompetent, just plain stupid, or outright "trusters" as their new kick goes.

QTF.

Its what i always have to explain to truthers when they start off saying it only involved a few people.

 

[NoahFence]

Hasn't.

It's been ESTIMATED, yes; based off of the varying scenarios Dave posited (although he excluded the various analysts of the different intel agencies that would have also had to be in on it, and given that there's approximately 16 of them, that would be a lot of people). I myself have estimated it at approximately 100,000 people, but again, that's just an estimate. I don't think anyone's claimed that the number of people has been definitively DETERMINED though.

It would be a darn near impossible determination, seeing as though it wasn't an "inside job" to begin with.

All we can give is our best guess. Which would number in the thousands, still making truthers look stupid.

 

[NoahFence]

Thanks for confirming that this estimate was/is utter hogwash. You claim 1000+ agents at Fresh Kills would have to be "in on it" but don't establish why. Then you claim a "significant" number of the massive number of first responders and cleanup workers would also have to be in on it. And what are you expecting them to find again? Blast caps?

He very well establishes "why". Stop being dishonest.


And what would they expect to find? In your world they would find unexploded charges and whatever vessel allows them to survive an aircraft impact at 500mph and subsequent massive unfought fires.

 

[Travis]

Apart from the thermite chips that were found, if you're not looking for residue you're not going to find any. That seems to be the gist of the bogus NIST "study."

Yes, people only ever find things they are looking for. And this is dumb for many reasons. Here's an older post of mine demonstrating this:

The officers adjusted their gear as they gathered around to hear the Chief speak.

"Okay folks," he started, "something big happened at the intersection of 5th and Pine. We don't know what it was, we don't know when it happened and we don't know who it happened to but we presume that it was an elephant trampling a midget french mime on a unicycle." His eyes darted back and forth studying the gazes of his unit. They were all fixed and earnest: ready to do their job. "So let's go out there and look for the elephant evidence and midget remains!"

With a pronounced snap they went into action and dispatched themselves the two blocks to the intersection where they gazed upon the aftermath. There they saw a car with it's side smashed in, an ice cream truck that had wrapped it's grille around a telephone pole, a piece of a motorcycle and a man laying in the street motionless his helmet covered in spiderweb cracks. But, alas, nothing indicating an elephant, a midget or a unicycle. Disappointed they reconvened back at their marshaling point.

"So no one saw what we were looking for?" The Chief asked and got his answer in their downward stares. "Okay then, let's go back there and this time let's look for a firetruck and a rickshaw!" Again they all departed for the intersection of 5th and Pine.

Several hours later the Chief, harried, spoke to his charges once more. "So are we sure we saw absolutely no evidence of robotic dinosaurs or flying monkeys?" Everyone slowly nodded their disappointment. "Well, damn!" Frustration was getting to the Chief, "let's get back down there and see if we can find evidence of a camel with a jetpack that did battle with Batman!"

Sometime the next day someone suggested they now look for a regular car and it was finally "found." Unfortunately no one ever thought to look for an ice cream truck, a motorcycle or it's driver so they lay there at the intersection of 5th and Pine to this very day.

Maybe, while we are looking for things, one of the trusters can enlighten us with where the four black boxes from planes that crashed into the towers are? Or more directly who took them?

Seeing as how they were probably smashed to smithereens there almost certainly wasn't enough of them to find to be sure you had found any one piece of them. Which means they probably lay in the Fresh Kills landfill to this very day.

 

[NoahFence]

^^^

Again, we need an emote for "taken to school"....

 

[Oz1976]

Apart from the thermite chips that were found, if you're not looking for residue you're not going to find any. That seems to be the gist of the bogus NIST "study."

Maybe, while we are looking for things, one of the trusters can enlighten us with where the four black boxes from planes that crashed into the towers are? Or more directly who took them?

You mean paint chips son. And none of the "thermite" samples were accreditted to WTC 7. Next?

 

[RedIbis]

Interesting. If your answer is “I don’t know”, then you surely must have specific unanswered questions that led to your doubt of the results of the investigation of the Shanksville crash.

Most definitely.

Perhaps your suggested moderated thread could be a list of these questions.

Perhaps. I've been asking them for years.

I disagree with you that the investigation is “still under enormous scrutiny”. I’m not really aware of anyone outside the truth movement that seriously questions the results of the investigation. The FDR from the aircraft was recovered, so we know pretty precisely how and where the aircraft went down. We have the recovered aircraft parts, DNA from passengers, phone calls from passengers describing what was happening pre-crash, etc. As someone who has done many mishap investigations, this one would seem to be a fairly easy one to find the root cause(s).

Every one of the items you mentioned deserves its own investigation and scrutiny. For instance, the plane parts. Every picture of a plane part was released years after the fact at the Moussaui trial. There are no same day photos of anything resembling a plane part. There is, however, a mysteriously empty ditch.

No argument here. Unfortunately, there is a need to debunk the wacky space beam theories right alongside the more serious discussions. Bad science needs to be challenged wherever and whenever it crops up.

Well, have fun with that. If you really think you need to debunk ridiculous theories, go right ahead.

Like you, I dislike the rancorous and worthless topics about Twoofers for the most part. I generally don’t participate in those threads. In fact, I don’t often participate in the “good” threads unless I feel I have something to add that goes to my experience, education, or training.

I'd like to say I take the same mature tack, but I've been known to take gratuitous cheap shots. However, if there was a spirit of civility and a thread devoted to objective research and discourse, I'd have no problem behaving myself.

I suppose I should chastise my fellow debunkers for starting such threads, but I can’t post to the forum while I’m working, so they’ve usually taken on a life of their own by the time I can comment. In the same vein, I think it would be great if you occasionally chastised some of the truthers for some of their silly, trollish behavior. I suppose no matter which side of the fence you’re on, sometimes the most you can do is sigh and shake your head in disgust.

I don't feel responsible for anyone else's bs. That's why I reject the stereotyping and Twoofie namecalling. I have no responsibility to address Holocaust deniers, space beamers, etc. When I do chastise someone, regardless of who it is, it's in the same spirit of maintaining logical discourse, as I did here.

Couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately, posters on both sides of the debate can easily slip into immature, unfriendly conduct. I’m not sure how to combat that. Even a moderated thread has to allow posts that are on topic and don’t violate the forum rules, regardless of how unfriendly they appear.

True, I don't think the forum could ever be completely purged of that, but the more mature among us can recognize hostility for it is, desperation and an inability to argue logically.

I still suggest that you start your own moderated thread to discuss what you feel are the questionable or unaddressed issues regarding the Shanksville crash. However, you really need to engage when asked legitimate questions rather that avoiding, obfuscating, or shifting goal posts.

I would agree to that and only argue as sincerely as I've felt I've done in the past. That's not the prevailing view around here, but I would happily participate in such a thread about 93 (again).

You’re apparently one of the better educated folks who have questions about 9/11. You are a fine writer with excellent skills as manifested by your sentence formation, spelling, punctuation, etc. If you can apply the same skills to your thinking processes, and actually take a debate to its conclusion, your moderated thread should be successful.

It's probably hard for some around here to believe, but I approach nearly any topic of discussion with the same critical thinking skills.

Good luck with your thread. I’ll participate (if I have something worthwhile to add), and I promise to so in a mature, friendly way.

I don't doubt that for a second. You've always been one of the more civil and informative posters here. And thanks again for providing a friendly and productive exchange.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Yes, people only ever find things they are looking for. And this is dumb for many reasons. Here's an older post of mine demonstrating this:

​

Seeing as how they were probably smashed to smithereens there almost certainly wasn't enough of them to find to be sure you had found any one piece of them. Which means they probably lay in the Fresh Kills landfill to this very day.

All FOUR of them? You must be kidding.

 

[NoahFence]

All FOUR of them? You must be kidding.

A cockpit voice recorder (aka "black box") is 24-36" long x 5 inches wide x about 5 inches high. Give or take.

It is capable of withstanding fire of 1,100 degrees C. FOR A HALF-HOUR.

By way of comparison, Each world trade center was 1,130 feet tall.


Yea, they're gone. All four of 'em.

 

[Travis]

All FOUR of them? You must be kidding.

Nothing in the laws of physics says they must have survived. And don't call me "Kidding."

 

[Justin39640]

All FOUR of them? You must be kidding.

You don't think they all should have been smashed to tiny little unrecognizable pieces??

They didn't find a lot of things that indicated it was a working office complex with over 50,000 employees. About the only thing that survived intact was paper. I honestly can't understand how you could look at that meat grinder it turned into and expect anything to survive. That's after ignoring the horrific plane crashes and fires they were in.

 

[Justin39640]

Nothing in the laws of physics says they must have survived. And don't call me "Kidding."

"Roger!"

"Huh?"

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

If it had crashed into the ground on purpose there would have been debris cluttering up those pictures.

What's the difference between crashing into the ground at a sharp angle and high speed by accident, and crashing into the ground at a sharp angle and high speed on purpose?