Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[tempesta29]

Three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead.

We've had a number of threads around here detailing just how many people would have to be in on it for even the most basic MIHOP to work. The numbers are staggering; no wonder Truthers prefer to ignore the facts and make up lies instead.

I was responding to this post, the fifth in the thread. Are you claiming that the number of people involved isn't relevant to the probability of a whistleblower stepping forward?

Why is this so hard to grasp?

 

[tempesta29]

Repeating an absurdity ad nauseam doesn't make it any less absurd. Industrial steel will, very obviously, only resist collapse if it's in the collapse path. Buckling displaces steel from the collapse path, so it can no longer offer resistance. So all you're doing is compounding your ignorance by proclaiming your refusal to learn the obvious.

Dave

Buckling is an occurrence that involves resistance. The very fact that buckling exists implies that an object resisted force. Very basic.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I still suggest that you start your own moderated thread to discuss what you feel are the questionable or unaddressed issues regarding the Shanksville crash. However, you really need to engage when asked legitimate questions rather that avoiding, obfuscating, or shifting goal posts.

If he's fine with it I'm willing to pitch in a moderated discussion. I'll make clear that I'm fine with the idea regardless but not unless he decides he's going to do it. I don't like dragging people into prescribed threads. I think if he were clear on what exactly his arguments are and can explain them in better detail it would go a long way. He's made it fairly clear that he's capable of it in the past, maybe an environment where he's not being flooded would create that environment, I don't know.

 

[R.Mackey]

... which explains why the "free fall" was the second phase of collapse, not the first.

This was explained to you in 2007. Now, please try to follow the thread. Last time I'm asking.

 

[tempesta29]

... which explains why the "free fall" was the second phase of collapse, not the first.

No. It doesn't. That doesn't even make sense. This is the same argument I've heard before, and it has no bearing on reality. The period of free fall means beams that hadn't buckled buckled instantaneously and offered no resistance when forces acted against them.

You're claiming that all those columns buckled before forces even acted against them.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Buckling is an occurrence that involves resistance. The very fact that buckling exists implies that an object resisted force. Very basic.

As I asked of Clayton Moore in a post that went to AAH, please give a brief explanation of the formation and evolution of plastic hinges in the inelastic buckling of a steel column. If you can't do that, you don't have sufficient understanding of the topic you're discussing to be taken seriously. And if you can, then you know why you're wrong.

Dave

ETA: And, as Ryan Mackey pointed out, this is neither new nor insightful, and therefore is off-topic for the thread. My apologies for continuing to discuss it.

 

[Dave Rogers]

So no answer then. How many people would it take and how did you achieve this figure?

Tell us what you think happened, and maybe someone will have a go. Were the Twin Towers demolished, and, if so, how was evidence of the demolition apparatus concealed? At a very minimum, the 1000+ FBI and Customs and Excise agents who fingertip-searched all the debris at Fresh Kills have to be in on it, as do a significant proportion of the 11,000+ first responders and cleanup workers at Ground Zero. How many people were needed for installation? We'll need an idea of the amount of materiel installed in the towers and WTC7, then we could estimate how many people it would take to install it. Were unauthorised modifications made to the airliners? Then we have to include maintenance staff, procurement staff, staff responsible for scheduling airliner flight diagrams, and senior management staff at both American Airlines and United Airlines. Was there a NORAD stand-down? Then we have to include a significant number of USAF officers at various levels. Were the hijackers real? What happened to the airliner passengers? Who made the airfone calls? More people are needed to manage all this. What about after-the-fact coverups? How many disinformation agents are operating on this forum? Add them (us?) to the total. And, of course, everyone who worked on the FEMA and NIST investigations. Oh, and everyone who worked for the 9/11 Commission. And al-Qaeda, of course, who've never come forward and said "Hey, there's something funny about all this..."

If you're claiming that some undue influence was exerted over al-Qaeda to attck in a particular way and at a particular time, then your conspiracy might be small enough to cover up. If you're claiming controlled demolition, then that alone means that many thousands of people must have been directly complicit. It's almost inconceivable that nothing concrete would have emerged yet.

So, pick a horse and back it. Take a stand, and say what you think happened. Then maybe we can have a conversation.

Dave

 

[NoahFence]

What is "it" exactly? Think about the fallacy in your question.

Man, get a clue. You know damn well what I mean by "it".

 

[TruthersLie]

16,796.

Plus three hamsters and a goat. And if you need that explained to you then you clearly don't understand physics.

You left out 5 liters of vodka and a dremmel.

 

[tempesta29]

Man, get a clue. You know damn well what I mean by "it".

Get a clue, yourself. You say truthers don't know how it, the collapse, should have looked. Are you implying they believe it should have collapsed at all?

 

[tempesta29]

Tell us what you think happened, and maybe someone will have a go. Were the Twin Towers demolished, and, if so, how was evidence of the demolition apparatus concealed? At a very minimum, the 1000+ FBI and Customs and Excise agents who fingertip-searched all the debris at Fresh Kills have to be in on it, as do a significant proportion of the 11,000+ first responders and cleanup workers at Ground Zero. How many people were needed for installation? We'll need an idea of the amount of materiel installed in the towers and WTC7, then we could estimate how many people it would take to install it. Were unauthorised modifications made to the airliners? Then we have to include maintenance staff, procurement staff, staff responsible for scheduling airliner flight diagrams, and senior management staff at both American Airlines and United Airlines. Was there a NORAD stand-down? Then we have to include a significant number of USAF officers at various levels. Were the hijackers real? What happened to the airliner passengers? Who made the airfone calls? More people are needed to manage all this. What about after-the-fact coverups? How many disinformation agents are operating on this forum? Add them (us?) to the total. And, of course, everyone who worked on the FEMA and NIST investigations. Oh, and everyone who worked for the 9/11 Commission. And al-Qaeda, of course, who've never come forward and said "Hey, there's something funny about all this..."

If you're claiming that some undue influence was exerted over al-Qaeda to attck in a particular way and at a particular time, then your conspiracy might be small enough to cover up. If you're claiming controlled demolition, then that alone means that many thousands of people must have been directly complicit. It's almost inconceivable that nothing concrete would have emerged yet.

So, pick a horse and back it. Take a stand, and say what you think happened. Then maybe we can have a conversation.

Dave

Non-sequitur. Red herring.

I asked a simple question in response to a claim that the number of people required to pull of an inside job was determined.

 

[Oystein]

You're now doling out arbitrary tests and making new goalposts to obfuscate the fact that you're wrong? That's sad, really.

All of these failure modes require time, something that, in stage 2, the buckling columns never took.

God didn't start creating the world on day 2, and the collapse of the north face didn't start in stage 2.
Something happened on day 1, and something happened in stage 1.
Explain what it was! Hint: Answering Dave's question goes a long way to ansering my question, too!

 

[Sabrina]

Non-sequitur. Red herring.

I asked a simple question in response to a claim that the number of people required to pull of an inside job was determined.

Hasn't.

It's been ESTIMATED, yes; based off of the varying scenarios Dave posited (although he excluded the various analysts of the different intel agencies that would have also had to be in on it, and given that there's approximately 16 of them, that would be a lot of people). I myself have estimated it at approximately 100,000 people, but again, that's just an estimate. I don't think anyone's claimed that the number of people has been definitively DETERMINED though.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I asked a simple question in response to a claim that the number of people required to pull of an inside job was determined.

And I gave you an outline of how to arrive at an answer. But that's niot what you wanted, because you were trying to prepare the ground for a bait-and-switch exercise, in which you promptly deny believing in whatever scenario is used to estimate a minimum number of conspirators.

Since, in another thread, you are claiming that the Twin Towers should not have collapsed from airliner impacts and subsequent fires, you have no grounds to deny that you believe that a part of the conspiracy was the installation of the devices resulting in their collapse. To cause the Twin Towers to collapse, assuming no other cause than the conspiracy, and conceal the evidence afterwards, would have taken a number of conspirators with at least five digits in it. This includes procurement of the devices used to cause collapse, planning the collapse, transport, installation, triggering, the complicity of a majority of the cleanup workers after the collapse in concealing any debris that would indicate the presence of any such devices, the complicity of all the people searching the debris for evidence, and the complicity of everyone working on the NIST investigations. So, order of magnitude, for the specific conspiracy elements you have repeatedly proclaimed your belief in, is 10,000+.

Dave

 

[tempesta29]

God didn't start creating the world on day 2, and the collapse of the north face didn't start in stage 2.
Something happened on day 1, and something happened in stage 1.
Explain what it was! Hint: Answering Dave's question goes a long way to ansering my question, too!

Explain what happened in stage 1? That's your question? And that will somehow explain why stage 2 was free fall? I already addressed this (and so did NIST): the fact that stage 1 wasn't free fall doesn't magically explain why stage 2 was. Force acts against steel columns and those columns react, period. Columns didn't "pre-buckle" before this collapse force acted against them.

This argument is so utterly desperate and hilarious, it's worth noting for it's incredible lack of potency.

 

[Oystein]

Explain what happened in stage 1? That's your question?

Yes.

And that will somehow explain why stage 2 was free fall?

Yes.

I already addressed this (and so did NIST): the fact that stage 1 wasn't free fall doesn't magically explain why stage 2 was.

Yes, it does.

Force acts against steel columns and those columns react, period.

When?

Columns didn't "pre-buckle" before this collapse force acted against them.

No. When did they buckle?

This argument is so utterly desperate and hilarious, it's worth noting for it's incredible lack of potency.

That's what you think, because you are very obviously and utterly unable to comprehend the basics of material physics.

 

[tempesta29]

Thanks for confirming that this estimate was/is utter hogwash. You claim 1000+ agents at Fresh Kills would have to be "in on it" but don't establish why. Then you claim a "significant" number of the massive number of first responders and cleanup workers would also have to be in on it. And what are you expecting them to find again? Blast caps?

 

[NoahFence]

Get a clue, yourself. You say truthers don't know how it, the collapse, should have looked. Are you implying they believe it should have collapsed at all?

I told you you knew what "it" meant....


I say truthers don't know how it should have looked, yes. They constantly rail on the fact that it looks like a controlled demo, then in the next breath say it was unprecidented.

And yea, you really should believe that the towers should have collapsed. Why? Because they did. The first tower to collapse was the precident, and the second was confirmation. Both suffered identically, both failed identically*. Where's the confusion?




* Identical enough for rational people, not for detail oriented nitpickers.

 

[Dave Rogers]

You're now doling out arbitrary tests and making new goalposts to obfuscate the fact that you're wrong?

No, I'm just checking that your detailed prediction of the behaviour of columns in a collapse is based on utter ignorance of the basic features of the behaviour of columns in a collapse.

That's sad, really.

Well, yes, it is.

All of these failure modes require time, something that, in stage 2, the buckling columns never took.

Congratulations, then, in breaking new grounds in truther ignorance, by not understanding that there's something else that happens before stage 2. I think you may have come up with a new formulation of Zeno's Paradox: Nothing can ever happen because, if you ignore everything that happened beforehand, nothing happened beforehand to cause it.

Sadly, Mackey was looking for something novel and insightful, not novel and patently idiotic.

Dave

 

[tempesta29]

Go ahead and cite what happens in stage 1 in the NIST report and let's see if they connect some occurrence from that stage to the free fall in stage 2. What you're implying is that all of the ability for stage 2 steel to resist collapse had already been removed in stage 1. There is nothing to support this.

Clearly you're a believer in magic.