General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[WildCat]

what of the Non Jews in Israel? What numbers are they allowed to breed up to?

I wasn't aware that there were breeding restrictions in Israel... got a link?

 

[mortimer]

You'd have a point if Israel wasn't a nation of all its citizens... but as it turns out it is.

Whatever. Next, you'll probably try to claim that Israel treats it's Arab citizens better than any Arab-majority country in the region treats it's own Arab citizens. Pshaw.

 

[The Fool]

I wasn't aware that there were breeding restrictions in Israel... got a link?

there is not.....I was wondering what you think are the steps Israel could take that you would be comfortable with.....steps that would prevent the non jewish Israeli citizens from demographically destroying the Jewish state.

 

[The Fool]

Israeli Jews should have lots and lots of unprotected sex.

No, but seriously, in the long term, the only solution is to make peace with it's neighbors. Unfortunately, it's neighbors don't seem to want peace. They want the Jews gone.

Frankly, it's probably a losing proposition in the end without drastic measures. I hope it doesn't come to that. A lot can change over time, but the hatred of Jews by Muslims in the ME goes back a long way, since way before Israel was formed.

If their Muslim neighbors are hell bent at getting rid of Israel, they can do so. It'd just take time. They haven't shown any signs that they won't just wait it out.

what "drastic measures"?

 

[The Fool]

You'd have a point if Israel wasn't a nation of all its citizens... but as it turns out it is.

so round and round we go.....eventually you may address my point.

Israel is a nation of all its citizens.
Israel is jewish nation.


how long do you believe you can keep up the handwaving and distractions before you eventually have to address this glaring paradox you weave?

 

[mortimer]

what "drastic measures"?

Something like expelling mass numbers of Arabs.

 

[mortimer]

so round and round we go.....eventually you may address my point.

Israel is a nation of all its citizens.
Israel is jewish nation.


how long do you believe you can keep up the handwaving and distractions before you eventually have to address this glaring paradox you weave?

Who's said that Israel is a Jewish nation? That's right, nobody. So care to leave the strawmen behind?

 

[The Fool]

Who's said that Israel is a Jewish nation? That's right, nobody. So care to leave the strawmen behind?

strawman? good greif.

Netanyahu: Israel must be recognized as ‘Jewish state’


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n....recognized-as-8216jewish-state8217-2010-09-12

Netanyahu wants Israel recognized as "Jewish"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009...hu-idUSTRE58N17L20090924?feedType=RSS&sp=true

and wildcat, a few posts pack in this very thread...

"This is exactly why it's important to Israel that the PA recognize it as a Jewish state"

do you want more?

 

[The Fool]

Something like expelling mass numbers of Arabs.

yes, this is my fear.

That this sort of thing could be seen as somehow acceptable...

 

[mortimer]

strawman? good greif.

Netanyahu: Israel must be recognized as ‘Jewish state’


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n....recognized-as-8216jewish-state8217-2010-09-12

Netanyahu wants Israel recognized as "Jewish"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009...hu-idUSTRE58N17L20090924?feedType=RSS&sp=true

and wildcat, a few posts pack in this very thread...

"This is exactly why it's important to Israel that the PA recognize it as a Jewish state"

do you want more?

Fair enough. I'd prefer if they were recognized as "the Home of the Jews" but it's not up to me.

 

[mortimer]

yes, this is my fear.

That this sort of thing could be seen as somehow acceptable...

I would hope it never comes to that. Of course, other countries in the region have done and continue to do the same thing, with hardly anyone complaining.

 

[The Fool]

Fair enough. I'd prefer if they were recognized as "the Home of the Jews" but it's not up to me.

...the one place on earth that provides an absolute guarantee that Jews can never be treated in a discriminatory way....sounds like a great Idea and something I would strongly agree with.

Throughout their history Jewish people have bravely fought for equality and resisted discrimination, always insisting that Jews should be treated equally with all others.

Israel should get on to that Idea too.

 

[The Fool]

I would hope it never comes to that. Of course, other countries in the region have done and continue to do the same thing, with hardly anyone complaining.

Those nations are judged by their actions.....and are justifiably not regarded as "modern democracies" I condemn any nation that thinks it is entitled to expell citizens of one ethnicity to preserve some notion that they are a nation of some other ethnicity.

 

[Mycroft]

It means the same as an Israeli state...or the state of the Palestinians.

If you are a citizen if Israel you are an israel, if you are a citizen of the United states you are american....

pretty straight forward.

That's a changing definition there, sport. If you define "Palestinian" as a citizen of the State of Palestine, then there are no "Palestinians" today because the state doesn't exist yet. Yet clearly that's not true.

So...Palestinian officials say Jews will not be welcome in a future Palestinian state. So it seems your "Palestinian state" will discriminate. Are you okay with that? Why or why not?

I am refering to the way the state treats them.....

But you're not. You're not making any claims that different people are treated differently. You're just making a big innuendo. If you want to claim Israel treats its non-Jewish citizens differently, then let's hear some specifics.

C'mon man, grow a little backbone and make some claims here.

so far you have proposed public holdays...wildcat mention immigration policy....thats progress.

How about some progress of your own? Name some ways that Israel discriminates against its non-Jewish citizens.

I am trying my best to address the Issue of what Israel means by "jewish state" and "home of the jews"
but you seem unable to suggest much.

You seem to think it means something dark and sinister, yet you refuse to say what and how.

there is not.....I was wondering what you think are the steps Israel could take that you would be comfortable with.....steps that would prevent the non jewish Israeli citizens from demographically destroying the Jewish state.

In the short run I expect they will continue to say "no" to massive amounts of Palestinians immigrating to Israel. I understand the reasoning for that, not just demographically but the common sense wisdom of not inviting a people who have been trying to kill you for decades to live among you.

What could happen decades in the future will depend on events that haven't happened yet, so neither you or I have the ability to predict them. If you want to condemn Israel for your imaginings of what might happen, go ahead, but I see that as nothing more than evidence of a deep prejudice. I could imagine all kinds of dark things happening in Australia in 2030, maybe white Australians will be hunting Aboriginals for food, but if I hated and condemned you today for what I imagine might happen in the future, I'd be doing nothing more than demonstrating irrational bigotry.

 

[WildCat]

there is not.....I was wondering what you think are the steps Israel could take that you would be comfortable with.....steps that would prevent the non jewish Israeli citizens from demographically destroying the Jewish state.

You mean like nuking cities with too high of an Arab population?

 

[The Fool]

That's a changing definition there, sport. If you define "Palestinian" as a citizen of the State of Palestine, then there are no "Palestinians" today because the state doesn't exist yet. Yet clearly that's not true.

its just a name mycroft...If The new state chose to call itself Batman then its citizens would be Batmanians. As it stands I think "palestine" is the most likely name they will chose.

So...Palestinian officials say Jews will not be welcome in a future Palestinian state. So it seems your "Palestinian state" will discriminate. Are you okay with that? Why or why not?

I am not ok with that....don't know how many times I have to say it.

But you're not. You're not making any claims that different people are treated differently. You're just making a big innuendo. If you want to claim Israel treats its non-Jewish citizens differently, then let's hear some specifics.

C'mon man, grow a little backbone and make some claims here.



How about some progress of your own? Name some ways that Israel discriminates against its non-Jewish citizens.

well, the last example I gave was education funding....please be carefull about going into immediated denial mode on that one as even the Israeli government acknowledges it and is making progress towards addressing it.

The normal distraction to that one has been that there is no specific law that says education funding shall be discriminatory.....you may want to use that one.

You seem to think it means something dark and sinister, yet you refuse to say what and how.

mindreading again. The only thing dark an sinister is people who can talk in paradoxes and keep a straight face..

Israel is a jewish state....Israel does not treat jews oand non jews differently...Israel is a jewish state....Israel does not treat jews and non jews differently...etc etc..

In the short run I expect they will continue to say "no" to massive amounts of Palestinians immigrating to Israel. I understand the reasoning for that, not just demographically but the common sense wisdom of not inviting a people who have been trying to kill you for decades to live among you.

What could happen decades in the future will depend on events that haven't happened yet, so neither you or I have the ability to predict them. If you want to condemn Israel for your imaginings of what might happen, go ahead, but I see that as nothing more than evidence of a deep prejudice. I could imagine all kinds of dark things happening in Australia in 2030, maybe white Australians will be hunting Aboriginals for food, but if I hated and condemned you today for what I imagine might happen in the future, I'd be doing nothing more than demonstrating irrational bigotry.

ok....will you be taking up "skeptic" on his concerns about "demographic destruction" because its "decades in the future"?

 

[The Fool]

You mean like nuking cities with too high of an Arab population?

that would be rather silly, are you suggesting it?

 

[mortimer]

Those nations are judged by their actions.....and are justifiably not regarded as "modern democracies" I condemn any nation that thinks it is entitled to expell citizens of one ethnicity to preserve some notion that they are a nation of some other ethnicity.

Yet you favor giving the Palestinians a nation, without preconditions, even though it is highly likely they will do just that. Why is that?

 

[The Fool]

Yet you favor giving the Palestinians a nation, without preconditions, even though it is highly likely they will do just that. Why is that?

well, I suppose they could expell jews simply for being jews and they would suffer the consequences of doing that. And can I clear something up? I am in favor of setting no preconditions on Palestine besides accepting that they will agree to the conditions of statehood that are expected of all states under international law.......The only way I would support the expulsion of anyone is if they refused to become citizens of the new state. For example...if an Israeli settlement that was in an area that became palestine under an agreement refused to leave and refused to become citizens..

I think in the long term Israeli citizens and palestinian citizens will intermingle more, maybe some sort of dual citizenship will evolve? or some form of permanent residency status for Palestinians working in Israel or Israelis working in palestine.

 

[mortimer]

well, I suppose they could expell jews simply for being jews and they would suffer the consequences of doing that. And can I clear something up? I am in favor of setting no preconditions on Palestine besides accepting that they will agree to the conditions of statehood that are expected of all states under international law.......The only way I would support the expulsion of anyone is if they refused to become citizens of the new state. For example...if an Israeli settlement that was in an area that became palestine under an agreement refused to leave and refused to become citizens..

I think in the long term Israeli citizens and palestinian citizens will intermingle more, maybe some sort of dual citizenship will evolve? or some form of permanent residency status for Palestinians working in Israel or Israelis working in palestine.

What do you think the likelihood is that a Palestinian state would accept the conditions of statehood under international law, and stick to it? We saw what happened in Gaza when Israel withdrew. What consequences would a Palestinian state face if they expelled or otherwise persecuted non-Muslims? Would those consequences be more lenient or more strict than the consequences for all the other Muslim states that have expelled or persecuted non-Muslims in recent history?