General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Skeptic]

no .....I don't know. can you explain what "nudge nudge, wink wink, grin grin." means

It means you will continue to insinuate how awful and racist "Israeli apartheid" is, without actually producing any evidence there is "apartheid" in Israel, such as a single law that discriminates between Jewish and Arab Israelies.

 

[bikerdruid]

It means you will continue to insinuate how awful and racist "Israeli apartheid" is, without actually producing any evidence there is "apartheid" in Israel, such as a single law that discriminates between Jewish and Arab Israelies.

good...you are back.
might we expect the honour of your comments in this thread? :
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211303

 

[Mycroft]

no....in australia, the aborigines are the second-class citizens, just as in canada and the u.s., aboriginal canadians and americans are the second-class citizens.

That was exactly the point I was trying to make. It is their home, but that doesn't guarantee privileged status for them.

 

[Virus]

Arabs don't have to do military service.

Apartheid!

 

[mortimer]

no .....I don't know. can you explain what "nudge nudge, wink wink, grin grin." means?

Another alternative is that you could participate in a discussion on the topic I was asking about... Wildcat appears disinterested in commenting on it...maybe you could help him out.

It goes like this..

"I am asking you if skeptic is wrong.....he says the jewish state can be destroyed demographically. do you agree? (remembering that your definition of jewish state doesn't include anything about demographics)"

Certainly it's possible. The "home of the Jews" could and likely would become "Jews not welcome" if Jews were to become the minority in Israel, as has happened in several other countries where Jews were in the minority. Take, for instance, the Palestinian territories.

 

[Mycroft]

I know you can't see the contradiction....so I am attempting to highlight it..with a couple of simple questions. Unfortunately I am having little success in getting any answers...just diversionary questions in return. If the questions are not clear I am more than happy to explain them further.

The first question is straightforward.
Is the US a jewish state?

My answer would be No and my reasoning would be that its not a jewish state because there are no distinctions between jews and non jews.

what would be your answer and reasoning to that question?

Try this instead:

Is the United States a Christian state?

My answer is yes it is. It's Christian in that Christianity is the predominant religion, and the most important of the Christian holy days are official government sanctioned federal holidays.

Does that make non-Christian citizens second class? Well, arguably. They may not have different rights, but if you're a Muslim who wants to celebrate Eid or a Jew who wants to celebrate Yom Kippur, then you have to do that on your own time. You have to arrange it around your secular schedule. It makes it harder to practice your cultural traditions.

Is that enough to warrant second-class citizen status? I don't think most people would say so, but some might.

I can think of a lot of ways in which Israel is a "Jewish" state. From state recognized holidays, being a center of Jewish culture, having Hebrew as an official language, and more. Things that contribute to Israel being a Jewish state without infringing on the rights of the non-Jewish citizens.

 

[Mycroft]

Certainly it's possible. The "home of the Jews" could and likely would become "Jews not welcome" if Jews were to become the minority in Israel, as has happened in several other countries where Jews were in the minority. Take, for instance, the Palestinian territories.

And let's not forget the fool will not have the same objection to "Palestinian state" that he does to "Jewish state".

 

[The Fool]

And let's not forget the fool will not have the same objection to "Palestinian state" that he does to "Jewish state".

sorry mindreading fail...


I support the concept a palestinian state...but not a "muslim" state....I think you know this but often seem confused

I don't support that sort of "muslim state, Jewish state" stuff anywhere....whereas you only support it in one place.....so I suppose you could say we are fairly close.

 

[The Fool]

Try this instead:

no...try the question instead....

 

[The Fool]

Try this instead:

Is the United States a Christian state?

My answer is yes it is. It's Christian in that Christianity is the predominant religion, and the most important of the Christian holy days are official government sanctioned federal holidays.

Does that make non-Christian citizens second class? Well, arguably. They may not have different rights, but if you're a Muslim who wants to celebrate Eid or a Jew who wants to celebrate Yom Kippur, then you have to do that on your own time. You have to arrange it around your secular schedule. It makes it harder to practice your cultural traditions.

Is that enough to warrant second-class citizen status? I don't think most people would say so, but some might.

I can think of a lot of ways in which Israel is a "Jewish" state. From state recognized holidays, being a center of Jewish culture, having Hebrew as an official language, and more. Things that contribute to Israel being a Jewish state without infringing on the rights of the non-Jewish citizens.

wow....cool,Have you told obama this yet? I think he is under the misapprehension that there is separation of church and state in the US.


ok lets review the list so far. The list of things the lads concede is what makes Israel a Jewish state.

Other states must accept that Israel is a "jewish state" which simply means...
1. it decides its own immigration policy
2. it decides its own public holidays.


Tell me Mycroft....do you believe Israel gets all hot and bothered because it fears other nations will not accept its right to determine those two things?


although to be fair...and to his credit....Mortimer is the first to address the demographics issue

 

[The Fool]

Certainly it's possible. The "home of the Jews" could and likely would become "Jews not welcome" if Jews were to become the minority in Israel, as has happened in several other countries where Jews were in the minority. Take, for instance, the Palestinian territories.

so If I am to accept Israels right to be a "jewish state" do I also have to accept their right to prevent Jews from losing the demographic majority.....do you accept their right to do whatever it takes to prevent that from ever happening?

 

[The Fool]

Certainly it's possible. The "home of the Jews" could and likely would become "Jews not welcome" if Jews were to become the minority in Israel, as has happened in several other countries where Jews were in the minority. Take, for instance, the Palestinian territories.

so If I am to accept Israels right to be a "jewish state" do I also have to accept their right to prevent Jews from losing the demographic majority?.....do you accept their right to do whatever it takes to prevent that from ever happening?

 

[The Fool]

It means you will continue to insinuate how awful and racist "Israeli apartheid" is, without actually producing any evidence there is "apartheid" in Israel, such as a single law that discriminates between Jewish and Arab Israelies.

you are getting closer...thats good.

what I actually am trying to figure out is what the term "jewish state" and "home of the jews" means and how it can possibly apply to Israel where there is absolutely no difference between arab and Jew.

 

[Mycroft]

wow....cool,Have you told obama this yet? I think he is under the misapprehension that there is separation of church and state in the US.

Don't be obtuse. Despite separation of Church and State, Christmas is still a federal holiday.
The predominant culture is still Christian.

although to be fair...and to his credit....Mortimer is the first to address the demographics issue

Why don't you address it, if you think it's the important issue? Do you ever scrape up the courage to just say what you're getting at? Or are you only able to hint around it?

sorry mindreading fail...


I support the concept a palestinian state...but not a "muslim" state....I think you know this but often seem confused

I don't support that sort of "muslim state, Jewish state" stuff anywhere....whereas you only support it in one place.....so I suppose you could say we are fairly close.

So what does a "Palestinian" state mean? Are non-Palestinians treated the same?

you are getting closer...thats good.

what I actually am trying to figure out is what the term "jewish state" and "home of the jews" means and how it can possibly apply to Israel where there is absolutely no difference between arab and Jew.

Who says there is no difference? Just as there are differences between Muslims, Christians and Jews in the United States...why wouldn't there be differences elsewhere?

 

[The Fool]

So what does a "Palestinian" state mean? Are non-Palestinians treated the same?

It means the same as an Israeli state...or the state of the Palestinians.

If you are a citizen if Israel you are an israel, if you are a citizen of the United states you are american....

pretty straight forward.

 

[The Fool]

Why don't you address it, if you think it's the important issue? Do you ever scrape up the courage to just say what you're getting at? Or are you only able to hint around it?

I am trying my best to address the Issue of what Israel means by "jewish state" and "home of the jews"
but you seem unable to suggest much.

 

[The Fool]

Who says there is no difference? Just as there are differences between Muslims, Christians and Jews in the United States...why wouldn't there be differences elsewhere?

I am refering to the way the state treats them.....
so far you have proposed public holdays...wildcat mention immigration policy....thats progress.

anything else? Or is Israel only wanting recognition of their right to set those things? Mortimer thinks it may have something to do with Israel wanting to avoid a demographic problem, do you agree with that one?

 

[bigjelmapro]

canada has an abysmal record of dealing with its native peoples.

Still a larger disparity between native Americans in both countries for over two hundred years and no whinging about it by a malady of NGO's with political agendas or by international bodies such as the UN.

if you are expecting that i will defend my government you are wrong.

Not expecting you to, since this would be a ridiculously easy way out for you. Just a basic comparative analysis.

although our natives often live in third world conditions, there is nothing whatever that stops them from travelling freely anywhere in the country.

Israeli Arabs can move freely in Israel and outside. Don't think there's free movement between states deemed enemy states for the Americans either.

i do not believe that this is a luxury open to the people in gaza.

Hamas is the government of Gaza and is in a state of war with Israel. If this were to hold true for the governing powers of the First Nations, then this same concept would apply.

east jerusalem was palestinian territory until 'annexed by israel (read: stolen)
canada is still settling several land claims issues in whiuch first nations communities are typically given hundreds of millions of dollars and large tracts of crown land.

No. It was land occupied by Jordan. E. J'lem. Large tracts of land was sold to Jews from private Arab land owners, ie Har Homa.

So another comparison of Canada fail.

the palestinains are not compensated in like manner.

Compensation goes both ways and one has to actually own the land or have some proof of ownership to claim compensation, so simply using a previous occupiers armistice line delineations as a starting point, doesn't work.

The Arab league countries that evicted the Jews from their country, forcefully and/or under duress, owned significant tracts of land compared to the mostly landless Arab fellahin. So a bit of a mismatch in demands for compensation. Even after the one-sided British land reforms of the late 1920's....

Christ. Is this really the best you can muster up?

 

[The Fool]

Well it's good to see you've retracted your claim and we won't have to watch you desperately try to allege that there's legal differences in Israel between Jews and non-Jews.

No...thats the claim you have chosen to assign to me and constantly require me to support...

I can only assume that you believe that discrimination requires legislation to allow it to happen?

Take for example the discriminatory funding of education in Israel. There is no law that says "Arabs shall receive less funding per head than Jews". yet it happens
Take the discriminatory treatment of Aboriginals in Australia. There is no law saying this is allowed. yet it happens.

It happens in an area that is generally called regulation not legislation. Have you heard of this before?

In order to prevent government doing things by regulation you need to challenge what they do in the Judicial branch. sometimes it happens and sometime it doesn't. So....the Israeli education minister and their department can (and do) discriminate between Jew and non jew.....

I'm not sure if the above is going to stop you simply retreating to repetition to avoid discussing the topic but thats your choice.

 

[a_unique_person]

Certainly it's possible. The "home of the Jews" could and likely would become "Jews not welcome" if Jews were to become the minority in Israel, as has happened in several other countries where Jews were in the minority. Take, for instance, the Palestinian territories.

It as a Jew who removed the Jews from Gaza.