Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[attaboy]

Attaboy


I've researched some stuff on McKubre by the way. His background isn't as lurid as that of Bockris and Champion (see #1289, page 33), but interesting nonetheless. More soon.

You probably wouldn't give much credence to the TV program "60 Minutes", but they did have a piece on cold fusion awhile back. McKubre was one of the scientists who appeared. They also interviewed some physicists all of whom originally part of the group that debunked cold fusion. But one of these actually made the effort to investigate cold fusion further (forget name). After evaluating the experiment first hand, he was no longer one of the debunkers. Please tell me how I get to this "#1289, page 33".

 

[TjW]

Here it is.http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7255718&postcount=1289

 

[attaboy]

If this were even close to being true, the big money would have bought it already, and somebody would be very, very rich.

Well then explain to me why big money never bought out Edison when he started to get the ball rolling. Or in more recent times, how come big money never bought out Wozniak/Jobs (Apple), Bill Gates (Microsoft), Brin/Page (Google) and a host of others??

 

[attaboy]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the conspiracy theorist's mind. Anyone who disagrees with him is either a shill or incredibly stupid.

Could it actually be that a big money advocate has finally come out front and center on this forum? I wouldn't dismiss that based on this rant. Sounds to me like its quite possible that the big money advocates with their worn out talk of conspiracy theories are starting to get nervous - - maybe even starting to show their true colors.

 

[Horatius]

McFate
Maybe that sounds like a lot, but how much has been spent on Tokamak research without any rewards. I don't think anyone ever said there would be a commercial lenr product without lots of research.

Yes, why ever would we suppose that LENR could be properly demonstrated with a budget much lower than that of traditional hot fusion?

I know this old article doesn't prove a thing, but it's kind of interesting if anyone will take a few minutes to read it. kinda shows what some these early scientists went through- whether you believe them or not. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.11/coldfusion_pr.html

Almost four stories high, framed in steel beams and tangled in pipes, conduits, cables, and coils, the Joint European Torus (JET) claims to be the largest fusion power experiment in the world. Located near Oxford, England, JET is a monument to big science, its donut-shaped containment vessel dwarfing maintenance workers who enter it in protective suits. Here in this gleaming nuclear cauldron, deuterium gas is energized with 7 million amperes and heated to 300 million degrees Celsius - more than 10 times hotter than the center of the sun. Under these extreme conditions atomic nuclei collide and fuse, liberating energy that could provide virtually limitless power.

Maybe.

High-tension lines run directly to the installation, but they don't take electricity out - they bring it in. For a few magic seconds in 1997, JET managed to return 60 percent of the energy it consumed, but that's the best it's ever done, and is typical of fusion experiments worldwide. The US Department of Energy has predicted that we'll have to wait another five decades, minimum, before fusion power becomes practical. Meanwhile, the United States continues to depend on fossil fuels for 85 percent of its energy.

Many miles away, in the basement of a fine new home in the hills overlooking Santa Fe, New Mexico, a retired scientist named Edmund Storms has built a different kind of fusion reactor. It consists of laboratory glassware, off-the-shelf chemical supplies, two aging Macintosh computers for data acquisition, and an insulated wooden box the size of a kitchen cabinet. While JET's 15 European sponsor-nations have paid about US$1 billion for their hardware, and the US government has spent $14.7 billion on fusion research since 1951 (all figures in 1997 dollars), Storms's apparatus and ancillary gear have cost less than $50,000. Moreover, he claims that his equipment works, generating surplus heat for days at a time.

Oh, right, it's because they've already claimed they can do that.

Using comparisons of funding between massive projects that require huge amounts of engineering and power to those that can be done on a table top, and then claiming you're failing only due to a lack of comparable funding, is just incredibly stupid.

 

[attaboy]

A valid argument is valid regardless of who makes it.

C'mon now David, I don't want to get into it with you again, but really. If your statement were true that would mean that anyone in the world could make an argument on anything at all, and according to you it would be valid. Do you really believe that?? Of course maybe it comes down what you mean by valid.

 

[Dancing David]

C'mon now David, I don't want to get into it with you again, but really. If your statement were true that would mean that anyone in the world could make an argument on anything at all, and according to you it would be valid. Do you really believe that?? Of course maybe it comes down what you mean by valid.

Your sopihistry shall avail you not, ...

Keep it up, I don't even have to try when you ruin your own stance so well.

So have you found even one research paper that supports LENR?

Iteration2

 

[Dancing David]

Could it actually be that a big money advocate has finally come out front and center on this forum? I wouldn't dismiss that based on this rant. Sounds to me like its quite possible that the big money advocates with their worn out talk of conspiracy theories are starting to get nervous - - maybe even starting to show their true colors.

Gentlemen start your tin foil hats....

 

[Craig B]

Attaboy

Well then explain to me why big money never bought out Edison when he started to get the ball rolling.

Because he and the others you mention promptly produced and marketed their inventions, which (it was clear from the beginning) actually worked. Because they did this, they BECAME "big money" which Rossi would have become too, if his device was obviously valid.

However, maybe Rossi's just not one of these "big money advocates" you see skulking on this thread (if not also hiding under your bed, or wherever).

 

[attaboy]

If you walk down the street and meet a hobo who gives you the correct solution to some mathematical problem, does the fact that this guy is a homeless child molester with AIDS change anything about the validity of his equation ?

I thought you would give me more credit than that! Do I come across as being that stupid? Let me tell you a little story.

"""
Back in the 1940's this young piano player arrived in NYC to try to make his way as a jazz musician. Shortly, he was walking down a street when this guy came walking toward him. The guy looked and acted every bit like other homeless people he'd seen who were classified as bums by the locals. Then the young musician recognized the guy, got down on his knees and kissed the guy's hand. The guy was Charlie Parker, arguably the greatest musician of the 20th century. Charlie said "Gimme some money", grabbed the cash and ran off down the street.
"""

But according to my understanding of what you and others seem to have been arguing earlier, you seem to think that if you walked down that street and asked every hobo you ran into for a solution to some problem each answer given would be considered valid. That's the way it came across to me. I really don't think that is what you meant.

 

[Emet]

A valid argument is valid regardless of who makes it.

C'mon now David, I don't want to get into it with you again, but really. If your statement were true that would mean that anyone in the world could make an argument on anything at all, and according to you it would be valid. Do you really believe that?? Of course maybe it comes down what you mean by valid.

You seem to be interpreting things that aren't written. DD's sentence is simple and clear.

If you want to start parsing and defining words to fit your view, or misinterpreting simple sentences, perhaps you should join this thread.

 

[attaboy]

Your sopihistry shall avail you not, ...

Keep it up, I don't even have to try when you ruin your own stance so well.

So have you found even one research paper that supports LENR?

Iteration2

That was quite a lame commentary David. I would have expected more from you. BTW, what's a sopihistry.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

A valid argument is valid regardless of who makes it.

C'mon now David, I don't want to get into it with you again, but really. If your statement were true that would mean that anyone in the world could make an argument on anything at all, and according to you it would be valid. Do you really believe that?? Of course maybe it comes down what you mean by valid.

The validity of an argument has nothing to do with the validity of the premises.

This is a perfectly valid argument

If bigfoot is real, then a lot of biologists are going to be embarassed. Bigfoot is real, therefore there are a lot of embarassed biologists out there.

The argument is perfectly valid, the premise, that bigfoot is real, is not.

 

[ben m]

Yes, why ever would we suppose that LENR could be properly demonstrated with a budget much lower than that of traditional hot fusion?.

No one is asking for the LENR version of ITER. We're asking for the LENR version of Mark Oliphant's 1932-ish experiment that measured the existence, and cross sections, of fusion reactions.

ITER is a multibillion dollar effort to see how the conditions for Oliphant's reactions scale up. It is not an attempt to see whether or not the reactions happen. Cold fusion has not yet demonstrated any sort of reaction happens at all. Nobody cares yet about how any future cold fusion technology would scale up.

Let's make a table, shall we?

Hot Fusion:

• $1000 to show reaction exists. (Done, 1932, Oliphant)
• ~ $1,000,000 to build a stable, scaleable reaction vessel (Done, 1950s, Artsimovich)
• ~$6,000,000,000 to build a commercial-scale reaction vessel (under construction)
• ???
• Profit! (not done)

Cold Fusion:

• ??? to show reaction exists. (Not done)
• ??? to build a stable, scaleable reaction vessel (Not done)
• ??? to build a commercial-scale reaction vessel (Not done)
• ???
• Profit! (not done)

 

[Belz...]

Could it actually be that a big money advocate has finally come out front and center on this forum?

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.

I wouldn't dismiss that based on this rant. Sounds to me like its quite possible that the big money advocates with their worn out talk of conspiracy theories are starting to get nervous - - maybe even starting to show their true colors.

What's fun about conspiracy theorists is that they don't know much about reality. Assuming that Big Evil Money^tm is involved, don't you think they'd rather MARKET this technology, become humanity's saviours and make billions ? I, for one, would've been delighted if cold fusion worked. But it doesn't, and reality always wins over hope.

 

[Belz...]

Baleeted.

 

[summand]

No one is asking for the LENR version of ITER.
Cold Fusion:

• Profit! (not done)

I think you are wrong with that point...

 

[Belz...]

But according to my understanding of what you and others seem to have been arguing earlier, you seem to think that if you walked down that street and asked every hobo you ran into for a solution to some problem each answer given would be considered valid. That's the way it came across to me. I really don't think that is what you meant.

Ah, so it's your reading comprehension that failed you, then.

Nobody's saying that the argument is valid, prima facie, no matter who says it. We're saying that whom the person is not a factor in the validity of the argument.

 

[attaboy]

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.



What's fun about conspiracy theorists is that they don't know much about reality. Assuming that Big Evil Money^tm is involved, don't you think they'd rather MARKET this technology, become humanity's saviours and make billions ? I, for one, would've been delighted if cold fusion worked. But it doesn't, and reality always wins over hope.

What's fun about those who like to talk about conspiracy theorists is that they don't get the big picture.
Here's the big money crowd with these elaborate enterprises in place. They are making billions. Do you think they want some new technology to come along and replace those elaborate enterprises? And since when did big money care about becoming saviors of humanity? I believe its you who needs the reality check. Better not rest your case just yet.

 

[attaboy]

Attaboy



Because he and the others you mention promptly produced and marketed their inventions, which (it was clear from the beginning) actually worked. Because they did this, they BECAME "big money" which Rossi would have become too, if his device was obviously valid.

However, maybe Rossi's just not one of these "big money advocates" you see skulking on this thread (if not also hiding under your bed, or wherever).

You make it all sound so simple. Can anyone be sure there wasn't a period where, their inventions were looked upon much as Rossi's is now, and they opted to avoid the big money crowd?