General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Matt Giwer]

Borders anyone? You can

One either has armistice lines or borders. They are different things. If the 1949 lines are armistice lines then they are not borders and what is inside them is occupied Palestine. You can't have it both ways unless you are a brain dead zionist which all of them are.

 

[Matt Giwer]

So what if MEMRI is run by the Mossad ? I don't care.

What I do care about is whether or not they're lying to me, either directly or by omission ?

As an Israeli, of course you would not care. I am talking to all the rational people who care about the difference between an real and a progandist source of information.

Most everyone was indoctrinated against Soviet propaganda. This is no different save for the lack of indoctrination.

 

[IDB87]

As an Israeli, of course you would not care. I am talking to all the rational people who care about the difference between an real and a progandist source of information.

Most everyone was indoctrinated against Soviet propaganda. This is no different save for the lack of indoctrination.

So, we have an example of a MEMRI translation, the video Virus posted and your claim about MEMRI translations in post #4122. Let's use this video as an example and debunk MEMRI, punch them right in the nose, catch them in the ac of lying and bury them as a source forever.

Now I can't do it as I lack the language skills however, there are dozens of Palestinian organizations listed as supporters of the upcoming Gaza Freedom Flotilla and I'm sure there's someone within one of those groups who would jump at the chance to help you back up your claims.

Please respond to what you snipped.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Its not apartheid and it is in no way to compare with Black civil rights movements.

so that is one you listed, so thats the only thing they lack? what else? can they vote? can they have representatives in the government? etc etc.

I completely agree there is no comparison with the civil rights movement as their complaint was against custom not law. In Israel the issue is a matter of law. As it is a matter of law that is by definition what apartheid means.

As to what they lack, they lack the right to return to and reclaim their private property they were forced to leave when they were forced to live in the internal ghettos in 1948.

They were driven off of their land. They were forced into ghettos. They were not permitted to return to their land under penalty of summary execution for being outside the ghetto. And Israeli law does not permit redress. Meaning Israeli law says Jews stole it fair and square and similar kindergarten taunts.

So yes there is no comparison as it is much worse than it was for Blacks in the US.

Now that you bring it up, THANK YOU, it is also worse than South Africa as SA made an effort to create their Bantustans shining examples of prosperity. The ghetto towns for the non-Jews in Israel typically get 5% of government revenues as is well documented by Israeli newspapers. 20% of the citizens get 5% of the government support. Sounds like the good old south to me.

I really do not understand why you think you are posting anything which is short of a joke.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Please respond to what you snipped.

Please explain why I should respond to jewish propaganda?

Only an idiot would take it seriously?

Only a retard would take memri seriously.

Why do you think I should waste my time trying explain to retards why memri is a retard friendly source?

 

[Matt Giwer]

And let us be clear about this. The Likud did not get the majority vote in the last election. So in the US sense it does not represent the people of Israel. And that is a fact.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Netanyahu has said many times that he doesn't oppose a Palestinian state.

And the Palestinians have never objected to an Israeli state. So what is your point?

The US is more Christian than Israel is Jewish. Will Israel recognize the US as a Christian nation?

What an absurdity. Countries recognize governments only. No country has ever done what Israel demands. And all the pretend stupid Jews here know that.

 

[bigjelmapro]

For the 100+ pages this thread has turned into, I haven't yet encountered the possible tactic the PA will try to circumvent the US veto against a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state. It was mentioned in March in a Jpost article, with some slight errors in the article itself, most notably that this United Nations General Assembly Resolution 377 (dubbed 'vetoing the veto') has caught Israel by surprise (which it has not), but I have yet to see it in this extensive thread.

Jpost article: How Palestinians will use the GA to advance statehood

I dare say that when this UNGA 337 came into fruition, on the legal argument, the USSR was correct in stating what it did, where this article goes further into detail as to the issues with UNGA 337:

The UN Charter Cannot Support GA Resolution 377

....
"The United Nations membership should, in my view, address ways and means to render the Security Council (a) accountable to the General Assembly, and (b) subject to the possibility, however remote, of a judicial review process." And according to Gregory Khalil, the PLO legal advisor in the security barrier case, the ICJ consciously sought to engage the United States in a "Tango of mutual deterrence" and "chart a path for the international community to counter the United States "veto power." The significance of the ruling cannot be overstated, he underscores: It challenges the power of the veto and the Security Council's management of "threats to world peace," using the International Court of Justice's interpretations of the rule of international law in matters of 'threats to world peace' coupled with claims that the international community is obliged to support its rulings and calling for sanctions - decisions that under Chapter VII of the UN Charter is the sole prerogative of the Security Council. Khalil calls this strategy "vetoing the veto."
...
The Legal effect of UNGA Resolution 377
Schwebel also cited Judge Sir Hersch Lauterpacht, a former member judge of the International Court, who stated:

"The paramount rule of the Charter is that the General Assembly has no legal power to legislate or bind its members by way of recommendation"

Yet another former ICJ judge, Sir Gerald Fitzmaurice, was as resolved in rejecting the "illusion" that a General Assembly resolution can have "legislative effect." Referencing Professor Arangio-Ruiz's work: "The Normative Role of the General Assembly of the United Nations and the Declaration of Prin*ciples of Friendly Relations," Professor Julius Stone called it "perhaps the most comprehensive and up-to-date treatise on this matter" ... he [Professor Arangio-Ruiz] is led to conclude that the General Assembly lacks legal authority either to "enact" or to "declare" or "determine" or "interpret" international law so as legally to bind states by such acts, whether these states be members of the United Nations or not, and whether these states voted for or against or abstained from the relevant vote or did not take part in it.

The rest of the article is worth a read.

Abbas has declared that he would use UNGA resolution 337 to his advantage in the unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state along the 1949 armistice lines in its attempt to draw yet another comparison to apartheid era South Africa and its dealings with Namibia.

Thoughts?

 

[IDB87]

Only an idiot would take it seriously?

Then let us assume we are not idiots.

What is the harm in getting an accurate translation to what MEMRI shows?

 

[Thunder]

Its not apartheid and it is in no way to compare with Black civil rights movements.

you're correct. Life for Palestinians in the WB is much worse than for blacks during Jim Crow.

 

[IDB87]

you're correct. Life for Palestinians in the WB is much worse than for blacks during Jim Crow.

There is no image macro for this.

 

[Stout]

As an Israeli, of course you would not care. I am talking to all the rational people who care about the difference between an real and a progandist source of information.

Most everyone was indoctrinated against Soviet propaganda. This is no different save for the lack of indoctrination.

I'm not Israeli, I'm not even Jewish. My spellchecker tells me I don't know how to spell Israel and according to one Israel I met, I don't even know how to pronounce it either. It's Isssssssrael, not Izzzzzzrael.

I'd consider a trip to Eilat though, catch the pyramids and Petra if Egypt and Jordan would let me in. Too bad the weather isn't optimal when I usually travel, in january/febuary.

So.

Nothing about the veracity of the video then ? No shooting it down in a ball of screaming flames by claiming the translation is fictitious or it was one of those comedy news shows, like on Saturday Night Live, and MEMRI has surreptitiously removed the laugh track ?

Pity, I was looking forward to some serious MEMRI beatdown where we could hoist it's lifeless corpse on a pole and publicly burn it in effigy. Maybe next time.

 

[HoverBoarder]

"Simple" does not mean "simplistic."
It's not complex, no matter how much you wish it to be.
One side wants the other side dead. Period.
How complex is that? How much additional "rational" discussion do you require?

Perhaps some need it to be complicated so that in that obfuscation they can find a satisfactorily exculpatory justification to assuage their conscience from some difficulties of cognitive dissonance that might occasionally arise as a result of supporting the insatiably bloodthirsty and murderous in the name of peace.

The problem is that when you say "One side wants the other side dead. Period," that does not include all Palestinians, or all Israelis. There are a number of Palestinian groups that very explicitly call for this, but even among those groups, there are members of who are not that radical.

There is no situation where either side could have a State where Israeli's or Palestinians were not present, and all of the calls for the destruction of either side only perpetuates the suffering that occurs on both sides.

This is a battle that can only be fought and won by moderates.

 

[bigjelmapro]

There is no image macro for this.

What do you expect when everyone ignores him? He makes ludicrous statements such as these even without knowing, yet again, the terms that he is using.

A starting information packet: What was Jim Crow?

 

[bigjelmapro]

The problem is that when you say "One side wants the other side dead. Period," that does not include all Palestinians, or all Israelis. There are a number of Palestinian groups that very explicitly call for this, but even among those groups, there are members of who are not that radical.

There is no situation where either side could have a State where Israeli's or Palestinians were not present, and all of the calls for the destruction of either side only perpetuates the suffering that occurs on both sides.

This is a battle that can only be fought and won by moderates.

Oh, the battle of the superlatives.

Issue here is, these moderates don't exist in the PA, PLO, PNC, Hamas, etc. They, to my knowledge, are a significantly small group that has been marginalized with little or no power/influence within Palestinian society.

Moral equivalence doesn't quite cut it.

 

[DC]

I completely agree there is no comparison with the civil rights movement as their complaint was against custom not law. In Israel the issue is a matter of law. As it is a matter of law that is by definition what apartheid means.

As to what they lack, they lack the right to return to and reclaim their private property they were forced to leave when they were forced to live in the internal ghettos in 1948.

They were driven off of their land. They were forced into ghettos. They were not permitted to return to their land under penalty of summary execution for being outside the ghetto. And Israeli law does not permit redress. Meaning Israeli law says Jews stole it fair and square and similar kindergarten taunts.

So yes there is no comparison as it is much worse than it was for Blacks in the US.

Now that you bring it up, THANK YOU, it is also worse than South Africa as SA made an effort to create their Bantustans shining examples of prosperity. The ghetto towns for the non-Jews in Israel typically get 5% of government revenues as is well documented by Israeli newspapers. 20% of the citizens get 5% of the government support. Sounds like the good old south to me.

I really do not understand why you think you are posting anything which is short of a joke.

the joke here is you. you couldn't bring up anything. strange. when talking about apartheid one can list countless rights they were lacking. you were able to list one and even that one is not as you claim it to be.

 

[DC]

you're correct. Life for Palestinians in the WB is much worse than for blacks during Jim Crow.

your famous dishonesty, we were talking about Israelis.

 

[Thunder]

your famous dishonesty,..

 

[HoverBoarder]

The situation in the West Bank is most certainly one of Apartheid, no two ways about it.

There are seperate roads for Israelis and Palestinians.

The Israeli Knesset makes decisions that effect the lives of the Palestinians on a daily basis, but the Palestinians have no right to vote for the Knesset members.

Israel has confiscated thousands of acres of Palestinian property since 1967, and used it for homes that Palestinians cannot live in.

Israel has given Permanent Residency status to Palestinians in East Jerusalem, but has covertly revoked this status from thousands of the people, which is illegal under international law.

The Israeli police are known for lending a blind eye towards violence by Israeli settlers against Palestinians and their property.

Surely, the situation in the West Bank is one of Apartheid. One highly discriminatory rule for Palestinians...with a highly favorable rule for illegal Israeli settlers.

He has concerns that the state will be a platform for terror and jihad. Let's face it, we're supposed to all say we want a Palestinian state, but in all likelihood it would be a thug-ocracy and safe harbour for terror that would provoke an Israeli invasion and we'd be back to square one.

But I suppose the most pressing issue in the world is the establishment of another corrupt, crony Arab dictatorship, so there you go.

These are the two best posts on the thread, both are true in their own way.

Whether you call Israel an Apartheid State or not, the fact is that the present system is not sustainable or beneficial to the security or moral structure of the State. If Israel wants stable long term security, they will need to establish a system that promotes the safety, security, and freedom of those who live in the region that are not Jewish. In addition, a long term stable Israeli State also will require a stable Palestinian State as its neighbor.

There are two main issues that are preventing this:

1. The definition of the Israeli state and the precursor for peace negotiations cannot be to just demand that the Palestinians agree that it should be a "Jewish Only State." That definition does not support the protection of the Israeli people, and is phrased in a way to purposefully prevent peace negotiations from occurring.

This definition needs to include that the protection and support of the Jewish people will be central tenet of the Country, and that this protection and support is maintained by Israel's commitment to the rights and freedoms of other great people living in Israel. As well as the promotion of a peaceful and stable Palestinian neighbor State.

2. The calls from Hamas and others to destroy Israel, and comments by Hamas officials that they would use a future Palestinian State to base attacks on Israel cannot be ignored. A Palestinian State should have the right to have as many Palestinians as they want to move there, but the borders will need to be monitored by the UN. There will also need to be agreements before any Palestinian State is formed on how attacks from any future Palestinian state on Israel would require military responses from Israel, and how a Palestinian task force that is internationally monitored would need to be set up in the new Palestinian State to prevent such attacks from occurring.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Then let us assume we are not idiots.

What is the harm in getting an accurate translation to what MEMRI shows?

If you are interested in reading what some obscure nutcase says, fine.

But as it is meant misrepresent I know of a few rabbis who can be used to represent all Jews. Imagine the screams of anguish and suffering and all the garment rending.