General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[a_unique_person]

I have no best friends who are Jews, but have Jewish acquaintences, and workmates at times. I work in an area with a large Jewish population. I have no problems at all with any of them. But no, none of them qualify as some of my best friends.

So are you calling me a liar?

I note that, once again, debate on a political matter is reduced to demanding that people have to prove themselves innocent of a great crime. If that is the main weapon in your armoury, one can only surmise you don't have much else if all you can do is attack people.

Jews have long been a respected part of Australian society, and made great contributions in terms of culture and business. Are you calling me a liar?

 

[WildCat]

IAre you calling me a liar?

Still waiting for that list of comparisons/contrasts on the rights bof Israeli Arabs to black South Africans.

You claim apartheid, you show evidence. If you continue to push the "Israel is an apartheid state" thing while being unable or unwilling to show any evidence whatsoever I can only assume you have other motives you don't wish to talk about publicly.

You are way too quick to demonize Israel over the flimsiest of excuses, clearly you have other issues you are not stating on this forum.

Now, about that apartheid claim, show your evidence or retract the claim. Failing either of those things I can assume what I like as to your actual motives, because your stated motivation is clearly a large pile of steaming bovine excrement.

 

[a_unique_person]

So you are calling me a liar. It's amazing how often this tactic is used in these debates, and it is always the weakest and lamest tactic to use. It speaks of desperation. I gave you a quote about apartheid, written by an Israeli. There are plenty more. The Likud platform proposes an apartheid solution, and that is what they are working towards. The Palestinians will live in an area, with borders that they have little say in, surrounded by a formal border owned and managed by Israel. In this place they will be 'free', in terms that US citizens would not contemplate for a second as being acceptable. Likud is the party that is making policy at this time, and is in the current government one of the milder voices on policy.

Did you read the quote I provided? It addressed your sense of horror at such claims being made about apartheid directly.

 

[a_unique_person]

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/28-kilometers-of-distilled-apartheid-1.1136

This highway has told the whole story. They pave a road, expropriate Palestinian land and the High Court of Justice approves the expropriation, in its words, "provided that it is done for the sake of the local population."
Afterwards they prevent the "local population" from using the road, and finally they build a wall with drawings of creeks and meadows so we don't see and don't know that we are driving on an apartheid road, that we are traveling on the axis of evil.

Apartheid? What are you talking about? It's just a freeway to the capital, because that's how we like it best. Going (quickly) along with the occupation and feeling like there is none. That way the highway has fulfilled another secret national wish - that they get out of our faces.
How many of the masses of travelers on this high road to the capital have looked to their left and right? How many of them have noticed the 12 roads blocked by iron roadblocks and piles of garbage? (Is there another country that blocks roads with garbage?) And what about the 22 confined and concealed villages alongside the road? How many people have asked themselves how it is possible that a road that was paved in the heart of the Land of Palestine has no Palestinians traveling on it? How many have noticed the sign that leads to the "Ofer [army] camp", another whitewashed name for a detention facility or the hundreds of prisoners detained there, some without trial?

 

[Thunder]

I am referring to the West Bank. The issue of the status of Palestinian Israelis is different, since they have Israeli citizenship.

The situation in the West Bank is most certainly one of Apartheid, no two ways about it.

There are seperate roads for Israelis and Palestinians.

The Israeli Knesset makes decisions that effect the lives of the Palestinians on a daily basis, but the Palestinians have no right to vote for the Knesset members.

Israel has confiscated thousands of acres of Palestinian property since 1967, and used it for homes that Palestinians cannot live in.

Israel has given Permanent Residency status to Palestinians in East Jerusalem, but has covertly revoked this status from thousands of the people, which is illegal under international law.

The Israeli police are known for lending a blind eye towards violence by Israeli settlers against Palestinians and their property.

Surely, the situation in the West Bank is one of Apartheid. One highly discriminatory rule for Palestinians...with a highly favorable rule for illegal Israeli settlers.

 

[Thunder]

It's not apartheid, it's not even close. And your continued use of this thoroughly dishonest debate tactic leads me to believe you have ulterior motives, such as a deep irrational hatred of Jews.

"I'm not an anti-semite, my grandfather was a jew"... sounds like "I'm not a racist, some of my best friends are black and I love Stevie Wonder albums".

Unless he has expressed actual hatred towards Jews, Jewish culture, or Jewish people, you have no right to accuse him or anyone else of anti-Semitism.

Accusing folks who are highly critical of Israeli policies, of anti-Semitism..without actual proof of anti-Semitism, is a vile & pathetic tactic. Save the accusations of anti-Semitism for true bigots, please.

You owe AUP an apology.

 

[bikerdruid]

The situation in the West Bank is most certainly one of Apartheid, no two ways about it.

There are seperate roads for Israelis and Palestinians.

The Israeli Knesset makes decisions that effect the lives of the Palestinians on a daily basis, but the Palestinians have no right to vote for the Knesset members.

Israel has confiscated thousands of acres of Palestinian property since 1967, and used it for homes that Palestinians cannot live in.

Israel has given Permanent Residency status to Palestinians in East Jerusalem, but has covertly revoked this status from thousands of the people, which is illegal under international law.

The Israeli police are known for lending a blind eye towards violence by Israeli settlers against Palestinians and their property.

Surely, the situation in the West Bank is one of Apartheid. One highly discriminatory rule for Palestinians...with a highly favorable rule for illegal Israeli settlers.

excellent post!!

 

[Thunder]

And seriously, if all you got to say in response to folks who are highly critical of clearly discriminatory Israeli foreign and domestic policies is: "you are a Jew-hater", then you don't take debating seriously and simply wish to assassinate your opponents character.

I mean honestly, how often do the Israel-critics at JREF accuse other folks of being "Arab-haters"? I've never seen it. Does that mean that Israel-critics are more able to stick to the topic and don't feel the need to hit the gutter and engage in personal attacks? Sure looks that way.

Maybe that's because we have facts & evidence on OUR side...while the other side has denial, shame, embarrassment, excuses....and name-calling.

 

[WildCat]

So you are calling me a liar. It's amazing how often this tactic is used in these debates, and it is always the weakest and lamest tactic to use. It speaks of desperation. I gave you a quote about apartheid, written by an Israeli. There are plenty more.

Yes, that was your appeal to authority fallacy, remember? I asked you to provide evidence of Israeli apartheid, and a good way to do that is to compare/contrast the rights of Israeli Arabs to black South Africans under apartheid. You rewfuse to do so, because you know damn well you can't even begin to make such a comparison, because Israel is in no way, shape, or form an apartheid state.

The Likud platform proposes an apartheid solution, and that is what they are working towards.

And the Ku Klux Klan works towards a whites-only USA. Does this make the USA an apartheid state?

The Palestinians will live in an area, with borders that they have little say in,

Of course they have a say, that's what the negotiations are for. Well it would be, if the Palestinians would actually showe up at the table to negotiate.

surrounded by a formal border owned and managed by Israel.

That's what happens to countries that have vowed a permanent war against their more powerful neighbor. When the Palestinians decide they want peace, that they love themselves more than they hate Jews, when they act like a responsible people they will find they can regain control of their borders. Get an airport and a seaport even! Until then, Israel is under no obligation to enable the Palestinians in their efforts to destroy Israel.

In this place they will be 'free', in terms that US citizens would not contemplate for a second as being acceptable.

US citizens generally don't spend their days vowing the destruction of Canada and Mexico, and launching rocket, mortar, and gunfire attacks against citizens of those countries. And if they did the US government would prosecute them for it. That's what makes the US a civilized modern state. The Palestinians have a long, long way to go before the rest of the world grants them the rights of civilized nations. Palestinians will get their own state wwhen they can show they will be a responsible memnber of the world community.

Likud is the party that is making policy at this time, and is in the current government one of the milder voices on policy.

I don't give a crap about Likud. They are not Israel. If Israel adopts Likud's platform I'll join you in the criticism, but as of now you just use Likud as your whipping boy because apparently you can't find enough fault with Israel.

Did you read the quote I provided? It addressed your sense of horror at such claims being made about apartheid directly.

You can quote Einstein claiming the earth is flat, it won't make it so.

 

[Thunder]

And the Ku Klux Klan works towards a whites-only USA. Does this make the USA an apartheid state?

is the KKK the ruling political party in the United States? no, no they are not.

When the Palestinians decide they want peace, that they love themselves more than they hate Jews,

ah, paraphrasing the late Golda Meir. are you also going to quote where she said the Palestinians do not exist?

I don't give a crap about Likud. They are not Israel.

Israeli is a parliamentary democracy, and Likud currently runs the coalition government. So in essence, until they are kicked out of power, they are in fact...Israel.

Let us know when the government coalition leader in Israel stops saying that there shall only be one state, between the River and the Sea, being Israel.

 

[mortimer]

is the KKK the ruling political party in the United States? no, no they are not.



ah, paraphrasing the late Golda Meir. are you also going to quote where she said the Palestinians do not exist?



Israeli is a parliamentary democracy, and Likud currently runs the coalition government. So in essence, until they are kicked out of power, they are in fact...Israel.

Let us know when the government coalition leader in Israel stops saying that there shall only be one state, between the River and the Sea, being Israel.

By this logic, on March 29, 2009, Israel was not an apartheid state, but on March 30, 2009, when Likud came to power, they became one. How did the treatment of Palestinians change between those dates?

 

[Thunder]

By this logic, on March 29, 2009, Israel was not an apartheid state,

your argument is with Wildcat's strawman logic, not mine.

he compared the governing coalition party of Israel, to the insignificant, tiny, and powerless KKK.

do you support such a silly analogy?

 

[bikerdruid]

The situation in the West Bank is most certainly one of Apartheid, no two ways about it.

There are seperate roads for Israelis and Palestinians.

The Israeli Knesset makes decisions that effect the lives of the Palestinians on a daily basis, but the Palestinians have no right to vote for the Knesset members.

Israel has confiscated thousands of acres of Palestinian property since 1967, and used it for homes that Palestinians cannot live in.

Israel has given Permanent Residency status to Palestinians in East Jerusalem, but has covertly revoked this status from thousands of the people, which is illegal under international law.

The Israeli police are known for lending a blind eye towards violence by Israeli settlers against Palestinians and their property.

Surely, the situation in the West Bank is one of Apartheid. One highly discriminatory rule for Palestinians...with a highly favorable rule for illegal Israeli settlers.

By this logic, on March 29, 2009, Israel was not an apartheid state, but on March 30, 2009, when Likud came to power, they became one. How did the treatment of Palestinians change between those dates?

thunder's excellent post has become 'the elephant in the room'.
the israeli apologists have ignored the points and continue to ask irrelevant questions.
thunder has pointed out, clearly, how israel is an apartheid state.
how about addressing his very valid argument?

 

[Thunder]

the israeli apologists have ignored the points and continue to ask irrelevant questions.
how about addressing his very valid argument?

not gonna happen.

debating strawman arguments, personal attacks, & name calling, is their only hope for success.

I'm sure if they call everyone who disagrees with them an "anti-Semite" enough times, it will eventually stick.

yeah, its sure to work.

 

[WildCat]

thunder has pointed out, clearly, how israel is an apartheid state.

Maybe you can do what a_u_p could not do. Can you compare/contrast the rights of Israeli Arabs with black South Africans during apartheid?

Of course you can't. You will have to do what a_u_p and Thunder do, claim apartheid because of differential treatment not only against foreigners, but foreigners who are engaged in a war of destruiction against Israel, and even a genocidal one for the more radical Palestinian elements like Hamas.

If the definition of "apartheid" is that you treat hostile foreigners differently than your own citizens, then every country on the planet is an apartheid state. But let me guess... this new definition of "apartheid" applies exclusively to Jewish countries, yes?

 

[mortimer]

your argument is with Wildcat's strawman logic, not mine.

he compared the governing coalition party of Israel, to the insignificant, tiny, and powerless KKK.

do you support such a silly analogy?

Please do educate yourself about strawman arguments. You use it repeatedly to refer to arguments you don't agree with, but are clearly not strawmen.

 

[JudeBrando]

If the definition of "apartheid" is that you treat hostile foreigners differently than your own citizens, then every country on the planet is an apartheid state. But let me guess... this new definition of "apartheid" applies exclusively to Jewish countries, yes?

Yes, of course.
The point is not truth, or concern for justice, or concern for innocents, or fairness, or accountability, or equality, or land, or peace... It is an implacable hostility to Jews and Israel. It is a hatred unlike any other.

They reveal and judge themselves in the glaring hypocrisy of the things they condemn and the things they excuse.

 

[bikerdruid]

Maybe you can do what a_u_p could not do. Can you compare/contrast the rights of Israeli Arabs with black South Africans during apartheid?
...............................

If the definition of "apartheid" is that you treat hostile foreigners differently than your own citizens, then every country on the planet is an apartheid state. But let me guess... this new definition of "apartheid" applies exclusively to Jewish countries, yes?

this thread is not about south africa.
nor is it about 'hostile foreigners'.

are not palestinians in east jerusalem and the west bank israeli citizens?
are there not double standards that apply to them from which israeli jews are exempt?

if israeli muslims are treated differently than israeli jews, apartheid exists.

 

[mortimer]

if israeli muslims are treated differently than israeli jews, apartheid exists.

If that's the only criterion, then your home country of Canada is also an apartheid state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school

Do you agree?

 

[bigjelmapro]

Since when are Palestinians in the WB Israeli citizens? There are Israeli Arabs that go to the WB and they enjoy the same rights as those of any Israeli.

E. J'lem Arab residents were given the option for Israeli citizenship, as mentioned ad nauseum previously, most recently by Mycroft, but yet again, this crops up.

If there's no interest in making a comparison between Palestinian Arabs in the WB/E. J'lem to those of black South Africans during apartheid in order to justify the use of apartheid and its various applications, then cease using the term. Simple.

The only reason I see in the use of this term by the likes of aup, bikerdruid, and parky is to get the people of this forum riled up with using such a loaded term without just cause. Then the term disappears for a few days to a week or so, then the same useful idiots use it again. Rinse, repeat.