General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[The Fool]

honestly, I think its reached the point with several JREF members, that denying discrimination against Arabs in Israel and Palestinians in the West Bank, is just trolling.

what I always find amusing is how people can imagine a "home of the jews" where there is no difference between Jews and non jews. I simply can't see how the term "home of the jews" is true if Jews are the same as everyone else....

 

[The Fool]

Netanyahu has said many times that he doesn't oppose a Palestinian state.

you left out the quotes...

Netanyahu has said many times that he doesn't oppose a Palestinian "state".

 

[Virus]

What do you mean by that? He has concerns that the state will be a platform for terror and jihad. Let's face it, we're supposed to all say we want a Palestinian state, but in all likelihood it would be a thug-ocracy and safe harbour for terror that would provoke an Israeli invasion and we'd be back to square one.

But I suppose the most pressing issue in the world is the establishment of another corrupt, crony Arab dictatorship, so there you go.

 

[The Fool]

What do you mean by that? He has concerns that the state will be a platform for terror and jihad. Let's face it, we're supposed to all say we want a Palestinian state, but in all likelihood it would be a thug-ocracy and safe harbour for terror that would provoke an Israeli invasion and we'd be back to square one.

But I suppose the most pressing issue in the world is the establishment of another corrupt, crony Arab dictatorship, so there you go.

he either is in favor of a state or he is in favor of something else.....if its something else he should outline what he means.

he uses the word state very loosly to play to his fan base so that they can still describe him as flexible instead of someone who is completely oposed to a palestinian state......seems to have worked eh?

 

[Virus]

How is the term used loosly? Remember that Israel has security requirements and the party that gives the Palestinians a state only to receive renewed jihad will never see another election again. That's what lead to the plummeting popularity of the Israeli center-left. Their concessions were met with terror and they were punished at the ballot box.

 

[The Fool]

How is the term used loosly? Remember that Israel has security requirements and the party that gives the Palestinians a state only to receive renewed jihad will never see another election again. That's what lead to the plummeting popularity of the Israeli center-left. Their concessions were met with terror and they were punished at the ballot box.

It is used loosly by applying the word state to things that are not states.

Israel Has security requirements? Thats not unusual mate. Australia has security requirements too.


please.....tell me what disaster will befall Israel if the palestinians achieve statehood? And not a grab bag list of nasty stories designed to get children to eat thier vegetables....I mean plausable significant risks with some probability at least higher than Zero.

 

[Virus]

Australia is not next-door to people who shoot rockets at us and infiltrate with suicide bombers. So our security requirements are not the same.

I've already told you what the Palestinian state would most likey become. A platform for terror, jihad and an ally with the terror-axis of Iran, Syria and Hezbollah.

That is, if they can govern themselves without an endless cycle of coups and power challenges.

 

[a_unique_person]

If the Palestinian/Muslim/Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no conflict.

If the Israeli Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel.

Ultimately, it is that simple, but some refuse to see.

There would be no conflict, but the settlements would keep expanding. No ones asking Israeli's to not have a self defence force, everyone seems to have one.

 

[Skeptic]

In the meantime, as the usual gang tries to fit the word "apartheid" to somehow fit only Israel but not Canada or most other nations, just like they try to fit the word "religious state" to fit only Israel but not, say, the UK, I am happy to announce that in a Palestinian state there will be no apartheid.

That's because Dr. (his PhD was a thesis claiming the holocaust was exagerrated) Abbas declared in the meeting of the Arab league that he wishes a completely Judenrein Palestine, not of IDF presence, but without any Jews at all. Which, needless to say, fits with the policy and practice in most of the rest of the Arab world.

Hey, you can't have apartheid after you finished your ethnic cleansing, I guess.

Imagine what people here would say (and quite rightly too) if Netanyahu declared he wants to eliminate all the Arabs in Israel and have a Jew-only state as a condition for a "peace" agreement. I fail to see why he doesn't, though -- wouldn't that a sure sign that he is a "moderate" and "desires peace", just like Abbas?

 

[DC]

In the meantime, as the usual gang tries to fit the word "apartheid" to somehow fit only Israel but not Canada or most other nations, just like they try to fit the word "religious state" to fit only Israel but not, say, the UK, I am happy to announce that in a Palestinian state there will be no apartheid.

That's because Dr. (his PhD was a thesis claiming the holocaust was exagerrated) Abbas declared in the meeting of the Arab league that he wishes a completely Judenrein Palestine, not of IDF presence, but without any Jews at all. Which, needless to say, fits with the policy and practice in most of the rest of the Arab world.

Hey, you can't have apartheid after you finished your ethnic cleansing, I guess.

Imagine what people here would say (and quite rightly too) if Netanyahu declared he wants to eliminate all the Arabs in Israel and have a Jew-only state as a condition for a "peace" agreement. I fail to see why he doesn't, though -- wouldn't that a sure sign that he is a "moderate" and "desires peace", just like Abbas?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138856

is this a trustworthy source? their advertisment surely doesn't look like it is a serious newpaper.

ETA; for example
ALERT! Obama Signs Martial
Law Executive Order

or the alternatives to homosexuality, it seems to be a newspaper on the level of PrisonPlanet.

 

[Skeptic]

Israeli Arabs? Got a cite?

Of course not, because he made it up.

Anyway, that aside, with some folks there's no point of bothering. They are angry at the "terrorist scum" Netanyahu for giving a speech that didn't capitulate entirely to every (current) Arab demand and actually declared the Jews have some rights.

But if Netanyahu had blown Abbas on the senate's floor, instead, they would claim it is an evil plan to discredit Abbas by making him appear holosexual and thus weaken this "moderate" (who is willing to destroy Israel by stages, not all at once) in the eyes of Arab society.

Anything Israel does short of simply disappearing is, for them, "imperialist agression".

 

[bigjelmapro]

thunder said,

The situation in the West Bank is most certainly one of Apartheid, no two ways about it.

There are seperate roads for Israelis and Palestinians.

Security. Plain and simple. Israeli Arabs use these roads as well. Palestinian Arabs as a whole are considered as belligerent towards Israelis and Jews overall, which is the reason for Israel to protect its own citizens and the measures taken to ensure this security is not to enforce this non-existent racial segregation, which was a core motivation during SA apartheid, not so with Israel by any stretch of the imagination.

The Israeli Knesset makes decisions that effect the lives of the Palestinians on a daily basis, but the Palestinians have no right to vote for the Knesset members.

Which Palestinians? Israeli Arabs? Or Palestinians under the PA's authority.

Israel has confiscated thousands of acres of Palestinian property since 1967, and used it for homes that Palestinians cannot live in.

State land and Palestinian property are not interchangeable.

B'tselem tried this theft angle with Ma'ale Adumim and had to retract their claim, for example.

Israel has given Permanent Residency status to Palestinians in East Jerusalem, but has covertly revoked this status from thousands of the people, which is illegal under international law.

Crickets in the thread this was addressed which Parky took part in. Permanent residency needs to be renewed. When Palestinians registered as such move overseas and don't renew their residency status, it gets cancelled like most countries, including Canada.

Not illegal under international law. I suggest going back to the thread where this was brought up.

The Israeli police are known for lending a blind eye towards violence by Israeli settlers against Palestinians and their property.

No. Speculation. I know NGO's with their political agendas make this claim every so often.

Surely, the situation in the West Bank is one of Apartheid. One highly discriminatory rule for Palestinians...with a highly favorable rule for illegal Israeli settlers.

Perhaps another crack at redefining this term with actual reasons that stick rather than speculation and fabrications.....and my favorite, claims debunked in other threads and re-claimed in other threads pretending the debunking never took place.

WC addressed a core issue here: Israel takes care of its own citizens and has no obligation to favor Palestinians living under the PA's authority over the security and well-being of its own citizens. These Palestinians are foreigners and their leadership as well as members of their own community have partaken in hostilities towards Israel continuing a state of belligerency that has occurred for the better part of a century.

Another core issue as to why the term 'apartheid' does not apply to Israel.

 

[The Fool]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138856

is this a trustworthy source? their advertisment surely doesn't look like it is a serious newpaper.

ETA; for example
ALERT! Obama Signs Martial
Law Executive Order

or the alternatives to homosexuality, it seems to be a newspaper on the level of PrisonPlanet.

its an interesting site.

 

[The Fool]

Australia is not next-door to people who shoot rockets at us and infiltrate with suicide bombers. So our security requirements are not the same.

of course they are not the same....nobody said they were.

I've already told you what the Palestinian state would most likey become. A platform for terror, jihad and an ally with the terror-axis of Iran, Syria and Hezbollah.

then tell me again, I think you need to say something at least 3 times before it becomes a fact.

That is, if they can govern themselves without an endless cycle of coups and power challenges.

Can you explain how nationhood would increase this probability...over and above the current situation.

 

[WildCat]

I simply can't see how the term "home of the jews" is true if Jews are the same as everyone else....

Then you should have no problems taking up the challenge!

In apartheid South Africa non-whites needed special permits to be allowed to travel to other parts of the country. In Israel, Israeli-Arabs who wish to travel _________________

Fill in the blank The Fool, I bet they need special permits to leave their home towns, Israel being an apartheid state and all.

 

[Thunder]

The situation in the West Bank for Palestinians, is similar to that of Apartheid. Its not identical, but similar. But we could also say that its much WORSE than Segregation in the American South, and much WORSE that the Pale Settlement for Jews in Eastern Europe.

As for Israel itself, Arabs suffer from government supported, funded, and legalized discrimination. Its less overt than Apartheid and Jim Crow, but its still immoral and disgusting.

 

[mortimer]

Much like how the United States was apartheid from April 2003 to June 2004 while it was occupying Iraq.

 

[WildCat]

Much like how the United States was apartheid from April 2003 to June 2004 while it was occupying Iraq.

Did you know Canadians cannot even vote in US elections, or run for public office in the US?

Apartheid!!11!!1!!!!!!!1!11!

 

[Thunder]

Much like how the United States was apartheid from April 2003 to June 2004 while it was occupying Iraq.

Did you know Canadians cannot even vote in US elections, or run for public office in the US?

Apartheid!!11!!1!!!!!!!1!11!

is this what you guys have to resort to? utter silliness and stupidity?

pathetic. Its now VERY clear who has won this debate, and its not the side that consistently feels the need to resort to strawman arguments, name-calling, personal attacks, and character assassination.

yeah folks, its looks like we are finally done here.

 

[WildCat]

Puerto Rico is a US territory and its residents are US citizens, but they have no voting representatives in Congress and can't even vote for federal offfices!

Apartheid!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!111!1!!!!!!!