Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[Subduction Zone]

It looks like we need to start a list of what Harold does not understand.

I don't think the momentum of the planet is changed in any significant way by the cart passing by!

No the percentage of the Earth's momentum is not changed in any significant way, but it can absorb a significant amount of the momentum of the cart/wind system.

His "Conservation of momentum" argument could be used to prove that cars cannot drive down the freeway, since the momentum of the Earth does not change significantly, then neither can a car's.

There is one thing that the H's are expert at and that is inventing flawed arguments.

 

[fttw]

If I can show the cart does not work in that frame, then it does not work in any frame, and that means all the voodoo you have been fed is a load of guff.

OK, I'll be the patsy. Explain to me why it doesn't work in a frame of your choice.

 

[humber]

No doubt I am completely exhausted by your willful ignorance. Whipped is an apt description.

Probably from the dead horse you have been flogging.
Do tell me again how two readings taken 0.2 apart can result in a 200 degree change, and how that error may be improved upon when the GPS is in motion?

 

[drewid]

It's a problem of density

 

[windgrins]

He won't listen and he won't get it once explained!

Probably from the dead horse you have been flogging.
Do tell me again how two readings taken 0.2 apart can result in a 200 degree change, and how that error may be improved upon when the GPS is in motion?

That's an easy one but he's not going to listen! Guaranteed!

WindGrins

 

[humber]

I've worked creating location enabled applications before and worked with a geomatics engineer for a number of years.. back before the iPhone and pervasive location APIs you often wrote your own or implemented others' algorithms for determining heading, dealing with bad locations, eliminating the jitter to show a stable location, etc etc.

Dr. Keith has the right of it and as usual humber's objections fall close to "not even wrong" territory.

Uh huh. And you used that to say, determine the heading of a vehicle to an accuracy of few degrees, and it got worse and showed 200 degree errors when stationary? There are crap GPS systems that will tell you that you are on the other side of town: they are called "location enabled applications"

There is another side to this, that says a lot about Carteers. Before the trials, I said that the GPS would not be accurate enough. Carteers assured me that the the errors were small, but now the bigger, the better.

 

[temporalillusion]

There are crap GPS systems that will tell you that you are on the other side of town: they are called "location enabled applications"

Jeez you're whiny.

 

[humber]

That's an easy one but he's not going to listen! Guaranteed!

WindGrins

This one is good. 100 degrees, and passes through the vane null.
That was the only record broken at this trial.

 

[humber]

Jeez you're whiny.

Someone does write all those crap applications, you know.

 

[temporalillusion]

Someone does write all those crap applications, you know.

Someone buys them too. Diversity in the world, imagine that.

Did you have a point to this? Or just wanted to flex your Internet muscles to impress the girls?

 

[windgrins]

Very Cute!

It's a problem of density

Yes, you are correct. The density in question is that of a block of wood!

Amusing comment!

WindGrins

 

[windgrins]

Please keep posting Dr. K!

Dr. Keith,

You've fallen into the pit again. It seems you have somehow been led to believe that information, facts, logic, or reason has anything at all to do with combating the insane/lame assertions here from our Anti-Carteerian team.

If you find yourself tempted to persuade these posters of anything at all, go to any random 10 pages and just read it. It will tend to cure you of this ill!

I'm delighted to hear from Spork in his earlier posts that we have a feedback path from NALSA. I doubt very seriously that H & H will ever actually lodge a protest given their wonderful arguments over the last 15 pages. But we'll know this if they do or don't.

Think of this as lowbrow comedy of the "Three Stooges" variety and enjoy!

WindGrins

Dr. Keith,

This comment was definitely not intended to say "don't post"! My comment is of course only meant to imply that detailed explanations of the obvious seem to "Swoosh" right by them so we are wasting our fingers.

It's worth noting a single post of the obvious problem with some of their posts just for the record that we aren't buying the nonsense, but past this, its a hopeless exercise to actually explain an issue to them! It sometimes makes you feel better to express to the audience that we aren't the morons that H & H take us for!

Regards,

WindGrins

 

[CORed]

Indeed it is. Same thing happens here if i leave the GPS at a fixed position. It will give random bearings all the time. Only once it moves, and even if only very slow, the bearings will come out correctly.

Maybe the deca-gps that humber invented performs better. And if so, only in the humberverse anyways.

Greetings,

Chris

The real question is why humber believes the readings from when the cart is standing still or dearly so have any bearing at all on whether it can achieve ddwfttw. It's makes about as much sense as, "But it was raining in Sydney Australia during the trial. Therefor the cart is a fraud."

 

[69dodge]

I don't think the momentum of the planet is changed in any significant way by the cart passing by!

Force equals the rate of change of momentum (F = dp/dt). When the cart and the ground exert equal and opposite forces on each other during some period of time, the momentum of each is changed by the same amount in opposite directions.

 

[humber]

Someone buys them too. Diversity in the world, imagine that.

Did you have a point to this? Or just wanted to flex your Internet muscles to impress the girls?

Yes. I am suggesting that your claim to authority based on your personal assessment of your abilities, may not be adequate.

 

[humber]

The real question is why humber believes the readings from when the cart is standing still or dearly so have any bearing at all on whether it can achieve ddwfttw. It's makes about as much sense as, "But it was raining in Sydney Australia during the trial. Therefor the cart is a fraud."

The 100 degree shift in the wind says that a cart in Darlington, Sydney, Australia, would do better than that lumbering hulk of junk that was actually present.

 

[windgrins]

Too late to change.

The real question is why humber believes the readings from when the cart is standing still or dearly so have any bearing at all on whether it can achieve ddwfttw. It's makes about as much sense as, "But it was raining in Sydney Australia during the trial. Therefor the cart is a fraud."

Simply put, H & H are too heavily invested in "the cart can't work" to ever listen to anyone with any information that doesn't support some of their insane hypotheses. It is an exercise in cognitive dissonance for them. There is no way they can change their minds on anything or learn anything new.

At this point, they'll go to their graves saying "The cart can't work." in spite of any evidence, authority, or line of reasoning.

So, I'm comfortable with this since I know where I stand.

WindGrins

 

[humber]

Simply put, H & H are too heavily invested in "the cart can't work" to ever listen to anyone with any information that doesn't support some of their insane hypotheses. It is an exercise in cognitive dissonance for them. There is no way they can change their minds on anything or learn anything new.

At this point, they'll go to their graves saying "The cart can't work." in spite of any evidence, authority, or line of reasoning.

So, I'm comfortable with this since I know where I stand.

WindGrins

I feel your pain, because I administer it. It is so embarrassing to be shown that you have been so publicly fooled, and that from two days of trials, one period of three seconds where the cart was even remotely close to the wind, was accepted as a record.
I don't think it was NALSA who forced that to happen - no matter what.

 

[69dodge]

I will have more on the treadmill later, but the key point is that the cart, in never being allowed to go back with the tread, never develops the momentum or inertia (depending on your reference frame) that the tread would impart to it. Being free of that inertia, the tread is a source of energy for the cart. A cart on the road is never free of the inertia given to it, by this big planet of ours and the road, being firmly attached to the planet, can never be a source of energy to the cart. The treadmill can not be compared to the cart on the road at all.

I do not know what you mean by inertia being given to one object by another. An object always has inertia, which is the resistance it has to having its velocity changed. The quantitative measure of inertia is mass: an object with more mass requires a greater force to change its velocity at a given rate.

Perhaps you just mean velocity?

In that case, a cart which is already at windspeed (say, pushed up to that speed by some means other than its propeller) has the same velocity relative to the ground as a stationary cart on a treadmill has to the moving tread. The moving cart on the ground is just as "free" of the zero velocity of the Earth as the stationary cart on the treadmill is free of the backward velocity of the tread. Once it's moving, it will stay moving, unless some force changes its velocity.

Admittedly, the wheels of the moving ground-based cart are difficult to turn (because they are attached to the propeller, which requires some torque to spin it), and therefore this cart has a tendency to slow down. But, the wheels of the stationary treadmill-based cart are equally difficult to turn (because they too are attached to the propeller), and therefore this cart has an equal tendency to start moving backward with the tread. If it doesn't move backward, that must be because the thrust of its propeller is sufficient to overcome the backward force of the tread on it. But, then, why wouldn't the equal thrust of the propeller of the moving ground-based cart be sufficient to overcome the equal backward force of the ground on that cart?

 

[temporalillusion]

Yes. I am suggesting that your claim to authority based on your personal assessment of your abilities, may not be adequate.

See, direct is much better than passive aggression.

You must be confused, I didn't make any claim of authority or any claim related to my abilities.

That's a good line though, I might have to borrow it sometime.