Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[Christian Klippel]

The real question is why humber believes the readings from when the cart is standing still or dearly so have any bearing at all on whether it can achieve ddwfttw. It's makes about as much sense as, "But it was raining in Sydney Australia during the trial. Therefor the cart is a fraud."

For the same reason that he believes that things that happened before or after the trial run have any importance for the actual trial. He simply has no clue. He does not understand the cart, and thus does not want it to work. But since it does work, he has to constantly come up with more and more ridiculous claims as to why it did not do what it did.

Dunno since when you followed this stuff. But he made a hell lot of predictions what would happen or not. It started with the actual build of the cart. He predicted it would never be build. Once it was clear that this was wrong, he predicted that how things would be done wrongly, or fail. None of these predictions ever came true.

He is so obsessed with the topic that he lost any contact to reality over it. It doesn't matter what anyone says. If it sounds like even the slightest support of the cart, he will claim the exact opposite. That is what led to his humberphysics. By now he extended his obsession against the cart to a point where he has to contradict everything that anyone who remotely supports the cart says.

The only good thing about that is the really funny stuff he sometimes claims. Things that are so stupid and ridiculous that even a 3 year old would never say such things.

In the end we keep him alive on this topic only for entertainment value.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[jadebox]

There are two many points here that I totally disagree with.

Thanks!

If you want to consider no friction, then every pmm ever conceived of will work.

You know that I only ignored friction to make the example simplier. And we all know that you know. So, you can stop playing that silly game now.

I don't see any point at all in such an approach when we have the means to calculate frictional losses, or at least estimate them to a reasonable level of accuracy.

Good, then you should be able to easily show that the thrust of the propeller is greater than the friction and the drag.

I also disagree the road is a source of energy to the cart.

Something that turns the wheels is not a source of power?

The cart has inertia and momentum from the planet earth that it can never be free of.

Depending on the frame of reference you use, the cart has inertia or momentum. You could say that the planet earth supplied the momentum by turning the wheels which turned the propeller, but I know that's not what you mean. You're, once again, incorrectly thinking that the planet's gravity has something to do with it.

As long as that is the case, the planet does not move under the cart and power it.

It's correct to say that the earth moves under the cart if that's what happens in your chosen frame of reference. You know that, but are just feigning obstinance.

The wind is the energy source.

Yes, it's a continuous source of energy which allows the cart to accelerate to wind speed and beyond. You seem to be missing that point. The wind keeps blowing and providing energy that the cart uses to accelerate. Nothing magical happens at "wind speed" to stop that process.

If I can show the cart does not work in that frame, then it does not work in any frame, and that means all the voodoo you have been fed is a load of guff.

The cart does work. It's been demonstrated.

-- Roger

 

[Llyricist]

Thanks!

Yes, it's a continuous source of energy which allows the cart to accelerate to wind speed and beyond. You seem to be missing that point. The wind keeps blowing and providing energy that the cart uses to accelerate. Nothing magical happens at "wind speed" to stop that process.



The cart does work. It's been demonstrated.

-- Roger

And he refuses to do an energy analysis of an upwind turbine cart in an FOR where the air mass is mostly stationary. Even though he does think those work, he won't acknowledge that they do precisely the same thing as the BB..... in reverse.... But the real kicker is, they are even less efficient. Partly due to the Betz limit (though they get around much of that by moving through the air) but more importantly due to the fact that air drag increases quadratically with speed, while rolling resistance is more or less constant.

 

[recursive prophet]

One of the amusing features of humberscience is that an experiment can be invalidated by events that happened before and after the experiment, and probably even by events that happened during the experiment thousands of miles away.

Of course this can happen. Haven't you ever read about Rupert Sheldrake's morphogenetic fields?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Perhaps humber's problem is that the blade of the cart, as seen from behind, goes anti-widdershins in the various videos, and yet he knows that it would go widdershins where he lives.

 

[humber]

Perhaps humber's problem is that the blade of the cart, as seen from behind, goes anti-widdershins in the various videos, and yet he knows that it would go widdershins where he lives.

Even 100 degree winds still have you believing it is ddw.
I do recall your remarks about Creationists.

 

[humber]

And he refuses to do an energy analysis of an upwind turbine cart in an FOR where the air mass is mostly stationary. Even though he does think those work, he won't acknowledge that they do precisely the same thing as the BB..... in reverse.... But the real kicker is, they are even less efficient. Partly due to the Betz limit (though they get around much of that by moving through the air) but more importantly due to the fact that air drag increases quadratically with speed, while rolling resistance is more or less constant.

There is no point up wind, where the cart has zero velocity wrt the wind.

 

[humber]

And he refuses to do an energy analysis of an upwind turbine cart in an FOR where the air mass is mostly stationary. Even though he does think those work, he won't acknowledge that they do precisely the same thing as the BB..... in reverse.... But the real kicker is, they are even less efficient. Partly due to the Betz limit (though they get around much of that by moving through the air) but more importantly due to the fact that air drag increases quadratically with speed, while rolling resistance is more or less constant.

None of Spork's proposed theories fit the recorded data.

 

[Llyricist]

Speaking of humber "mis-statements", remember that chart that I was 95% sure was from a tow back upwind?

Here's the other 5%:

And then there's that other chart that shows almost 2 hours worth of data in a completely irrelevant display of weirdness

 

[spork]

The real question is why humber believes the readings from when the cart is standing still or dearly so have any bearing at all on whether it can achieve ddwfttw. It's makes about as much sense as, "But it was raining in Sydney Australia during the trial. Therefor the cart is a fraud."

I think it's more entertaining that he claims we're frauds and that we had access to the data before giving it to NALSA, implying that we manipulated it - AND that every single byte of the data proves us wrong.

The bottom line is fairly simple and obvious. We set out to get a record - not for the obvious fame, fortune, riches, and glory, but rather to have a highly qualified, disinterested third party scrutinize our data and methods so that others wouldn't have to take our word for it. In the end, humber will continue his tantrum for years to come, but the record will stand - and he'll still be humber.

 

[humber]

Speaking of humber "mis-statements", remember that chart that I was 95% sure was from a tow back upwind?

Here's the other 5%:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22151&stc=1&d=1305257943[/qimg]

And then there's that other chart that shows almost 2 hours worth of data in a completely irrelevant display of weirdness

Too bad. Now you will have to explain the 60 degree wind. I know exactly which data is what. But you didn't, did you? Never checked a thing.
I told you that only NALSA will see the evidence, not you...

And in your zeal, you missed something, that supports that the other (withheld) data against the cart is valid, or the remainder including the record run, cannot be used in support of it.
Similarly, your gainsaying of profpagloss, carries not weight.

 

[humber]

I think it's more entertaining that he claims we're frauds and that we had access to the data before giving it to NALSA, implying that we manipulated it - AND that every single byte of the data proves us wrong.

The bottom line is fairly simple and obvious. We set out to get a record - not for the obvious fame, fortune, riches, and glory, but rather to have a highly qualified, disinterested third party scrutinize our data and methods so that others wouldn't have to take our word for it. In the end, humber will continue his tantrum for years to come, but the record will stand - and he'll still be humber.

You will find out the hard way, as you always do.
The record will not stand.

And you will have trouble convincing anyone that the cart is 4 degrees off ddw, during the "record" run.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Even 100 degree winds still have you believing it is ddw.
I do recall your remarks about Creationists.

Poor humber, he wouldn't recognize a joke if it bit him in an inappropriate place.

By the way, my claims were true

 

[Llyricist]

Too bad. Now you will have to explain the 60 degree wind.

What 60 degree wind?

I know exactly which data is what.

The 5% doubt was in the possibility that you fabricated the chart. You did, however, fabricate the explanation, all of the following quotes were referring to that chart:

As with so many other even more obvious examples that nobody was to see, the cart's performance nose-dives as it approaches 0 degrees with respect to the wind, and improves again when that difference increases.

The x axis represents 0 degrees between the cart and the wind. It is quite clear that the cart's performance suffers as the difference approaches zero, so ddw, and then improves when that difference increases.
There are many such examples, and even larger changes in wind direction.

A ddw trial where the change in wind direction is more than 60 degrees...

And they were all lies. And if that is the 60 degrees you were taking about, who cares? It happened while they were pushing it back upwind.

But you didn't did you?

If you post any data from any of the full runs, I will recognize it and call you on it right away. But I only got the full day's data last night, It takes a while to hunt down entirely irrelevant data in that haystack.

I told you that only NALSA will see the evidence, not you...

Well you are definitely holding true to your word on that score, at least the not me part.

 

[humber]

What 60 degree wind?]
Keep guessing.

The 5% doubt was in the possibility that you fabricated the chart. You did, however, fabricate the explanation, all of the following quotes were referring to that chart:

No, I did not.

And they were all lies. And if that is the 60 degrees you were taking about, who cares? It happened while they were pushing it back upwind.

Still a bit slow?

If you post any data from any of the full runs, I will recognize it and call you on it right away. But I only got the full day's data last night, It takes a while to hunt down entirely irrelevant data in that haystack.

That's right, so all the while you were making up BS about the data, and from what Spork fed you, you didn't have it.

Well you are definitely holding true to your word on that score, at least the not me part.

You're done with.

 

[Llyricist]

I see humber edited his post to make it entirely incoherent.

 

[Llyricist]

That's right, so all the while you were making up BS about the data, and from what Spork fed you, you didn't have it.

I had the data from the record run which included the continuation after the test period until the cart stopped, which is all I ever claimed to have.

You are the only one making up any BS about it, as I just busted you on.

 

[humber]

I had the data from the record run which included the continuation after the test period until the cart stopped, which is all I ever claimed to have.

You are the only one making up any BS about it, as I just busted you on.

BS. You did not have the data. But now that you do, you can post a run where you think the cart is ddw. Sift away.

 

[CORed]

Of course this can happen. Haven't you ever read about Rupert Sheldrake's morphogenetic fields?

Just on a quick reading of the site you linked, it looks like pure BS to me.

 

[Llyricist]

BS. You did not have the data.

The charts I posted last week were from the data I had, and I prepared them last month and sent them to Bob (April 8). And offered them to anyone here that wanted them. I didn't even ask for the full day's data until you started posting crap about it in the last couple days.

I already know of the 4 occasions where the cart stayed within 10 degrees of DDW for 15+ seconds straight, above wind speed, and accelerating. But I am not going to post them unless someone that has any worth asks me to.