Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions

Dani said:
Well, yes it is. That is what we have been talking about here. Whether we can form a scientific justification for statements like those I offered above (everyone ought not be impoverished, etc.).

No, it's not. You didn't mention "scientific justification". What you said was more like:

[...]we can discover a system of medicine but we can't say anyone should be made healthy[...]
Again, there is a difference between saying that we can't do something and saying that there is no scientific justification for something.

I agree and that was my point. To say that we ought (or ought not) to do something (on the basis of consensus or because it seems reasonable or because it fits with an 'axiom' like 'maximize well-being' or whatever) is not a scientific justification. That is, we can say these things but we cannot expect them to represent a scientific justification, or if we want a scientific justification it is insufficient to simply declare these things.

I did mean it. That I didn't mean it was your claim. I'm just telling you that I'm not going to ask you to support your claim.

May I ask you to clarify once again your position, if you don't mind?

When you said:

we can discover a system of medicine but we can't say anyone should be made healthy
Meaning:

we can discover a system of medicine but we can't scientifically justify whether anyone should be made healthy
You really meant that?

More like...we can discover a system of medicine but it isn't a scientific justification to state that anyone should be made healthy.

Linda
 
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By the way, I had thought about the hypothetic situation from your previous post in which Harris says that it would be ethical for our species to be sacrificed for the unimaginably vast happiness of some superbeings. Where is the quote from? Did he really say this? If so, I think it's consistent with his position on the well-being of conscious creatures but inconsistent with the "human universals" argument and, generally, the arguments that appeal to our biology.


Here's a quote (TML, pages 301-302, footnote 50):

50. However, one problem that people often have with consequentialism is that it entails moral hierarchy: certain spheres of well-being (i.e., minds) will be more important than others. The philosopher Robert Nozick famously observed that this opens the door to “utility monsters”: hypothetical creatures who could get enormously greater life satisfaction from devouring us than we would lose (Nozick 1974, p. 41). But, as Nozick observes, we are just such utility monsters. Leaving aside the fact that economic inequality allows many of us to profit from the drudgery of others, most of us pay others to raise and kill animals so that we can eat them. This arrangement works out rather badly for the animals. How much do these creatures actually suffer? How different is the happiest cow, pig, or chicken from those who languish on our factory farms? We seem to have decided, all things considered, that it is proper that the well-being of certain species be entirely sacrificed to our own. We might be right about this. Or we might not. For many people, eating meat is simply an unhealthy source of fleeting pleasure. It is very difficult to believe, therefore, that all of the suffering and death we impose on our fellow creatures is ethically defensible. For the sake of argument, however, let’s assume that allowing some people to eat some animals yields a net increase in well-being on planet earth.

In this context, would it be ethical for cows being led to slaughter to defend themselves if they saw an opportunity— perhaps by stampeding their captors and breaking free? Would it be ethical for a fish to fight against the hook in light of the fisherman’s justified desire to eat it? Having judged some consumption of animals to be ethically desirable (or at least ethically acceptable), we appear to rule out the possibility of warranted resistance on their parts. We are their utility monsters.

Nozick draws the obvious analogy and asks if it would be ethical for our species to be sacrificed for the unimaginably vast happiness of some superbeings. Provided that we take the time to really imagine the details (which is not easy), I think the answer is clearly “yes.” There seems no reason to suppose that we must occupy the highest peak on the moral landscape. If there are beings who stand in relation to us as we do to bacteria, it should be easy to admit that their interests must trump our own, and to a degree that we cannot possibly conceive. I do not think that the existence of such a moral hierarchy poses any problems for our ethics. And there is no compelling reason to believe that such superbeings exist, much less ones that want to eat us.
 
I agree and that was my point. To say that we ought (or ought not) to do something (on the basis of consensus or because it seems reasonable or because it fits with an 'axiom' like 'maximize well-being' or whatever) is not a scientific justification. That is, we can say these things but we cannot expect them to represent a scientific justification, or if we want a scientific justification it is insufficient to simply declare these things.

Agreed.

But I'm again baffled at your recent thread contention which apparently does disagree with my objections therewith, or where exactly you agree/disagree with Harris' contentions.

"that was my point". What is your point? What is Harris' point? All along in the thread and from the TED speech and Harris' words I've been assuming "Science can answer moral questions" means that "Science is justified axiomatically for some reason in answering moral questions, better than any other axiomatic morale".

As in, Science is more justified to answer any moral question than any other moral theme. Science > Christianity. Science > Selfism. Science > Utilitarianism. Science > Evolutionary Pressure. Is this true, for everyone, for the Universe, as Objective? Is science the end-all, be-all of morality? Why? How? Give Scientific Proof since it's Science that's claiming Superiority?
 
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Needless to say, "science can answer/maximize moral answers" when the answers are in the form of question like "is human health desirable? Yes" is not in dispute. Science is awesome. Input a moral or desire or end-goal into it, and it delivers (this is often called medical science, or anthropology btw). That's not what's in question in this thread, or towards Harris.

Science can't say what's desirable or not. It will never be able to.

Harris seems to be going well beyong medical science given an axiom of desirable health, beyond cultural units being more/less desireable than competitors, etc. He seems to be trying to put every answer in every field under his umbrella of "Science". My use of quotes here also denotes how little he's thought of among those who are actually scientists, anthropoligists, philosophers, etc. Seems his biggest supporters are naive new age atheists or something (I admit, this is a massive strawman, but I'm a bit drunk)
 
Here's a quote (TML, pages 301-302, footnote 50):

> certain spheres of well-being (i.e., minds) will be more important than others.

That is the basic idea of morals / ethics: The existence and quality of emotions is what matters. Dead stones in outer space are not an ethical issue, unless they somehow potentially affect living creatures.

> this opens the door to “utility monsters”: hypothetical creatures who could
> get enormously greater life satisfaction from devouring us than we would lose

Humans do that to less intelligent animals, so it is possible (while a bit sci-fi) to speculate that a higher life form would do the same to humans.

> we are just such utility monsters. Leaving aside the fact that
> economic inequality allows many of us to profit from the drudgery of others

Capitalists are such, but Left-Wingers renounce such policies, at least in theory.

> most of us pay others to raise and kill animals so that we can eat them.
> This arrangement works out rather badly for the animals.
> How much do these creatures actually suffer?

Actually animals do not necessarily have a worse life under human care and rich nourishment than in the wild where survival is a daily struggle. And instantly dying does not cause any pain to yourself, only to others if they are socially aware of losing you.
 
I'm sorry. Does Harris' morality (of Science of course) insist upon veganism? I didn't get that specific claim from his talks or internet rebuttals or such.

So as Earthborn long ago said, "the well-being of conscious creatures" also means non-human animals? And of course, if this is so, Harris has definitively stated what "conscious" means? I'd be very interested in reading this proof.
 
If one believes some form of consciousness survives death, then obeying the dictates of <insert deity here> (e.g., such as making women where "cloth bags" or telling adults what types of sexual practices they can and can't engage in) under threat of eternal torment would increase the wellbeing of conscious creatures. In fact, any finite amount of pain and cruelty can be justified when compared to an infinite duration of suffering if you don't comply.
 
Agreed.

But I'm again baffled at your recent thread contention which apparently does disagree with my objections therewith, or where exactly you agree/disagree with Harris' contentions.

The next step seems to be, "because these are not scientific justifications, there are no scientific justifications to be had". I disagree with that.

"that was my point". What is your point? What is Harris' point? All along in the thread and from the TED speech and Harris' words I've been assuming "Science can answer moral questions" means that "Science is justified axiomatically for some reason in answering moral questions, better than any other axiomatic morale".

I realize that has been your assumption. And this also may be defensible (it's hard not to look good compared to religion).

Linda
 
My use of quotes here also denotes how little he's thought of among those who are actually scientists, anthropoligists, philosophers, etc. Seems his biggest supporters are naive new age atheists or something (I admit, this is a massive strawman, but I'm a bit drunk)

I'd be interested in knowing more about this. How did you find out how he's thought of among scientists, etc.?

Linda
 
> certain spheres of well-being (i.e., minds) will be more important than others.

That is the basic idea of morals / ethics: The existence and quality of emotions is what matters. Dead stones in outer space are not an ethical issue, unless they somehow potentially affect living creatures.

This is a gross simplification. Emotions aren't the only thing that people care about, or what matters when it comes to ethics. This would imply that cold but kind and highly rational people are worth less than others, and I don't think anyone here actually believes that.

Actually animals do not necessarily have a worse life under human care and rich nourishment than in the wild where survival is a daily struggle. And instantly dying does not cause any pain to yourself, only to others if they are socially aware of losing you.

True, but pain is also not the only thing that matters. If I kill my neighbour by painlessly smothering him during his sleep, that does not make the action "right". Killing sentient creatures is generally not appreciated. :)


Anyway, the answer to the question at hand (thanks for the quote Kuko 4000!) seems pretty simple to me: It depends on what those super beings are like. It is misleading to ask "but what IS the better action to take" as if there is some universal standard. "What is the action that we should take, based on our preferences and moral reasoning" makes much more sense. If those superbeings could be said to be like us, but better in every way (possessing all the virtues that we value to a greater extent) then the answer could be yes. If they are entities which only care about the total number of paperclips in the universe, and would kill us without a second thought, then I don't see why we should help them, no matter how happy this would make them.

I would like to know if Harris defends his "happyness must be maximised no matter the cost" axiom anywhere in his book, and if so, how.
 
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I'd be interested in knowing more about this. How did you find out how he's thought of among scientists, etc.?

Linda

By reading the internet, with search terms such as "Sam Harris & Philosophy Forum", "Sam Harris & Criticism", "Sam Harris & Idiot". Plus a few critiques that have been cited in this thread by real philosophers/scientists.

This answer kind of sucks (sorry, really), since I haven't prepared or saved specific examples of such critiques. Have you prepared or saved examples of philosophers and scientists praising Harris and explaining (with Science and Philosophy of course) how he is correct?
 
I don't think Harris is entirely correct in his views and claims, but I don't see how what (other) philosopher's have to say on the subject is relevant. I fully understand Harris' decision to ignore other philosophers in his book, as most of philosophy is utterly meaningless.

Either his logic is sound, or it's not. Consensus doesn't enter into it.


Edit: Of course, if the philosophic/scientific community comes up with a great counterargument to show that Harris' views are wrong, and Harris ignores this entirely, than that's a different matter altogether. But then it's the argument that matters. People are going to disagree either way.
 
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I don't think Harris is entirely correct in his views and claims, but I don't see how what (other) philosopher's have to say on the subject is relevant. I fully understand Harris' decision to ignore other philosophers in his book, as most of philosophy is utterly meaningless.

Either his logic is sound, or it's not. Consensus doesn't enter into it.

So...philosophy simply doesn't exist as any kind of arbiter of morality. All moral answers can (must) instead by answered by science, or something. Why then does he couch nearly all his claims in (sloppy) philosophical, rather than scientific terms?

I can't tell if his "logic" is sound or not. He doesn't seem to have presented any logical arguments/proof.

Finally, if other philosophers aren't relevant, apparently Sam Harris has singlehandedly crushed philosophy alltogether. I also missed that; if he did so he should certainly be up for some kind of enormous prize...isn't that often that a single person can definitively crush 4000 years of human thought.

And your contention that most of philosophy is "utterly meaningless"...what? Just what do you mean by "philosophy"? Or what do you mean by "most"? For instance does the Golden Rule and it's infinite social/individual reaffirmations in morality and law count as philosophy? Why is murder bad? Come on.

Edit: Of course, if the philosophic/scientific community comes up with a great counterargument to show that Harris' views are wrong, and Harris ignores this entirely, than that's a different matter altogether. But then it's the argument that matters. People are going to disagree either way.

They have, and he has ignored and dodged the substantive points.

I'm not going to provide any links, because they've already been provided in this thread.

Whose onus is this? Scientists/philosophers, to spend hours on refuting every obviously ridiculous claim and platform? Or for the maverick new idea-man to actually convince both of this sets due to either solid science, or solid philosophy? He hasn't provided anything solid, so I can certainly understand why he's being dismissed without a word, much like a local on the street corner spouting his own fantastical notion of how the world works.

"Promoting well-being is the single highest moral imperative" (paraphrase). Uh, how again with scientific proof alone has he established this? Obviously no such proof can even once reference philosophy, since it's utterly meaningless. Oh, oops, and I made a mistake including the word "moral", since morality is meaningless. So I'm looking for scientific proof. Promoting well-being is the single highest scientific imperative.

eta: Obviously, this and Harris' position is the moral philosophy of utilitarianism. But apparently philosophy is meaningless. So Harris or you need to come up with an awesome new scientific way of demonstrating "well-being" as paramount (and scientifically explain which species it applies to, whether individual or collective, etc).

Why does science prove that a person in bliss is more desirable than a person in misery? And so on. If Harris' proofs are actually by objective science, this and all other moral questions should be incredibly easily answered. It should be an easily demonstrable experiment or mathematical/physical proof.

Oh, forgot. Harris isn't a sociologist/anthropoligist, or a mathematician or physicist. So I also guess those fields are utterly meaningless, since Harris isn't an expert on them. Errr....just what field is Harris arguing/basing-his-claim from anyway? I can't remember.
 
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So...philosophy simply doesn't exist as any kind of arbiter of morality. All moral answers can (must) instead by answered by science, or something. Why then does he couch nearly all his claims in (sloppy) philosophical, rather than scientific terms?

Well, the kind of philosophy where you sit in a room and declare "all is fire" without explaining what that is supposed to mean.... well yes, that kind of philosophy is utterly useless. Philosophy has to be logically sound. Bare assertions, or worse, meaningless babble, is irrelevant regardless of who it is made by.

Finally, if other philosophers aren't relevant, apparently Sam Harris has singlehandedly crushed philosophy alltogether. I also missed that; if he did so he should certainly be up for some kind of enormous prize...isn't that often that a single person can definitively crush 4000 years of human thought.

Sam Harris has done no such thing. Sam Harris has ignored other philosophers because he felt that they hadn't much relevant to say on the subject. The fact is that the field of philosophy is plagued with endless discussions of utter non-issues, and I can understand why one would want to avoid those altogether. Now I'll admit, he'd have done well to address things like "you can't derive ought from is" more carefully in his book rather than just dismissing it altogether. But an long discussion of the underlying theory and existing research on the subject like one might do with a paper on economy? Not applicable here.

And your contention that most of philosophy is "utterly meaningless"...what? Just what do you mean by "philosophy"? Or what do you mean by "most"? For instance does the Golden Rule and it's infinite social/individual reaffirmations in morality and law count as philosophy? Why is murder bad? Come on.

Yep, that's mostly meaningless. "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself" is simply a very basic assertion for how one should live their life. It doesn't explain why one should obey this rule, or how how this is beneficial, or how one should treat situations where following this rule actually causes harm to others or yourself. Basically all it says is "empathy is good". As this doesn't really lead to any new insights, except for those who thought "empathy is bad" (although those won't be convinced otherwise, since no argument is made), I consider it "meaningless" in that regard.

Whose onus is this? Scientists/philosophers, to spend hours on refuting every obviously ridiculous claim and platform? Or for the maverick new idea-man to actually convince both of this sets due to either solid science, or solid philosophy? He hasn't provided anything solid, so I can certainly understand why he's being dismissed without a word, much like a local on the street corner spouting his own fantastical notion of how the world works.

Well obviously, it is his task to present a clear argument for why his idea works. I agree that he has mostly failed to do this, because he doesn't adress the obvious counterarguments and instead says "it doesn't matter". He should have begun by saying "This is what I am arguing in favour of" and followed with "this is why it works" and "this is why the obvious counterarguments fall apart". I agree that he has not done this. I do not agree, however, that his failure is not incorporating the current body of philosophical pondering of morality in his book. Simply presenting a solid case in and of itself would have been fine.

"Promoting well-being is the single highest moral imperative" (paraphrase). Uh, how again with scientific proof alone has he established this? Obviously no such proof can even once reference philosophy, since it's utterly meaningless. Oh, oops, and I made a mistake including the word "moral", since morality is meaningless. So I'm looking for scientific proof. Promoting well-being is the single highest scientific imperative.

Morality is not necessarily meaningless, if you define it properly it is perfectly possible to have a sensible discussion about it.

His response to your point was that he doesn't claim to have any such proof. He is simply positing an axiom, but finds that this doesn't invalidate his argument as his axiom is completely obvious. I do not agree with him on this, of course. He should have explained why he chose this axiom, and why he feels that making use of an axiom is all right.

Why does science prove that a person in bliss is more desirable than a person in misery? And so on. If Harris' proofs are actually by objective science, this and all other moral questions should be incredibly easily answered. It should be an easily demonstrable experiment or mathematical/physical proof.

As I said, Harris' argument does not go like this. As I understand it, his argument goes as follows:

a) It is obvious that virtually everyone prefers well being to be maximised than for it to be minimised.
b) It is foolish to act as if a lack of objective moral truth in this regard means that the Taliban cannot be criticized, for example. Objective moral truth is a non-issue, and so is "can't derive ought from is".
c) If we assume that maximising well-being is our objective, we can use science to do X Y Z.

Of course, he does not state it like that, but this is what I get from reading between the lines. Like I said, his argument isn't very convincingly made.
 
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I have no problem with someone dismissing all moral philosophy if they put forth a solid argument (which was not the case). But if one pretends to do science and denigrates philosophy while actually doing a whole lot of philosophy to make a point, that's naive. And it's called scientism. I respect more the people who say "well, that's just my metaphysical approach" or "this is the assumption from which I'm going to explain it", etc. Making assumptions without acknowleging one is making assumptions is an elemental mistake.

By the way, I think philosophy is useful as long as there is a rational and scientific approach. And there's plenty of that philosophy too. And in these forums we do a lot of philosophy.
 
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Sophronious said:
He should have begun by saying "This is what I am arguing in favour of" and followed with "this is why it works" and "this is why the obvious counterarguments fall apart". I agree that he has not done this.


:confused:

Have you read the book? I've read only the first three chapters and this is exactly what he's doing.
 
Oh. I guess I'm arguing that it's an odd claim re: this topic of suicidal people wishing a better life. What does this have to do with science or anything? Why is this important to Harris' contentions?

The realistic "better life" for suicidal people is the end of life.


It has to do with what people value. Is your claim that a person who is suicidal would not want a better life if it were somehow magically possible? I'm talking about what people value, not what they see as realistic or possible in their current situations. The whole reason why they are committing a suicide is the avoidance of suffering, and I already wrote about that.

Btw. I don't speak for Harris or anyone else but me, I haven't even read the book fully yet, so I'm not going to pick any sides yet, other than I greatly respect Harris for his previous work and public appearances.


Uh, no. What do you mean by "we"? "We except for those of us who disagree with my values, who are not-we"?


We, as in human beings. We want to avoid things that lead us to "bad life" (suffering, etc.) and we want to increase things that lead us to "good life" (pleasure, etc.). This is my understanding of human beings anyway, (1) I'd like to hear exceptions to this and (2) how it relates to the discussion of how we should build our moral guides.


Convincing reason to believe the best way to achieve the "good life", from someone who isn't suicidal: "The good life is continuing to live!"

Convincing reason to believe the best way to achieve the "good life", from someone who is suicidal: "The good life is stop living!"

Just why do you think the former has any more objective weight than the latter?


Off the top of my head, to be more precise, there are no good reasons (that I know of) for believing that there is any kind of life after death so the question is easily answered. BUT, semantics aside, what you probably mean (again) is that for some people in some situations it's better off to be dead than alive, and in this case we're talking about the avoidance of suffering, which I wrote about in my previous posts.

I have to wonder why you bring this up again and again?

They are two different things, the current situation, and what we really value. Sometimes it's better to be dead than to suffer, I have no objections to that. What the suicidal person achieves (or at least has good reasons to believe that he achieves) with the ending of his life is the avoidance of (his own) suffering, which is actually a good case for human beings not valuing "bad life". On the other hand, if the person really thinks that a better LIFE awaits him after death he probably has no convincing reasons to believe that, but I'd be very interested to hear them.


Do we value x over y? I think this is a sociological/psychological/philosophical/individual upbringing question. You or Harris seem to believe this is a simple science question. So, since you or Harris don't want to engage or pay any respect to my types of questions as a finder of either truth or tendency or best-explanation, you should certainly tout your scientific question/answer and this will quickly end the argument (since I'm completely willing to believe an actual well-formed scientific or logical proof is correct. All Harris needs to do is present this).


What are these questions of yours that I don't want to engage with?

I have already said that I'd rather discuss these things in real time over a chat system because I find writing stuff like this (and in a foreign language) is way more time consuming than I want it to be. For this reason my replies might take a long time to appear, but I'm more than willing to discuss my own moral ideas with you or anyone else, in the hope of learning something new, it just takes a lot more time than necessary. I have no expertise on this issue, nor have I really thought about these things in depth, but as you can see from my previous posts, I do have some serious first questions about the whole "is-ought" notion and its relevance to moral thinking.
 
:confused:

Have you read the book? I've read only the first three chapters and this is exactly what he's doing.

Like I said earlier, my info is second hand, so not all that reliable. I'll prolly have the book by the end of the day though, so I'll see if I misjudged it.

We, as in human beings. We want to avoid things that lead us to "bad life" (suffering, etc.) and we want to increase things that lead us to "good life" (pleasure, etc.). This is my understanding of human beings anyway, (1) I'd like to hear exceptions to this and (2) how it relates to the discussion of how we should build our moral guides.

That's too generic. People certainly want to improve their own lives, generally speaking. They do not generally want to improve the lives of their enemies, rather they want them to suffer and die. Also, especially religious nuts tend to believe that they themselves are sinful and deserve to suffer.

It would be nice if everyone wanted the best for everyone, but I really don't think that this is actually the case.
 
Soph, I appreciate your reply, but with this example I was talking about our own lives directly, not the lives of others. And when it comes to actions or morals motivated by religions, in most (if not all) cases, we can pretty easily show that they are not based on the best understanding that we currently have of the universe.
 
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