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Gage's next debate

we dont know the temp of the slag but if it was hot enough to "melt" the steel that has already passed the a3 line close to the slag, then all it would do is cool to the austenite after it had "melted".
You'd need another 400°C plus to see that and those temperatures are just too high. The inner part of the steel would see much higher temperatures and therefore would destroy the microstructures observed. We would see far more dissolution of the pearlite bands.


do ya think alittle "liquid" or alot of liquid is needed to accomplish this?
Define "a little" and "a lot". You can roughly measure the amount of liquid seen using the scale in the photo-micrographs.


true.....
thought experiment:
do you think the oxygen in the fe2o3 (gray layer) in jones red chips would do anything. that is assuming the chips are thermitic in nature with multiple layers and the heat from the reaction melted the grey layer and forced it onto the steel?
No and no. We see no evidence of a gray layer melted into the steel.


as for the copper:
there was copper in the wtc steel. but, the ncstar page 283 states that "the copper web plate analyzed had copper additions of approzimately 0.05, based upon the chemical results obtained in this study. given this low value of copper in the steel, it would seem unlikely that enough copper could diffuse to form the amount of (fe,cu) sulfides observed in the FEMA/BPAT analysis.......more likely that a localized, external source of copper was available....."
The copper strike used in the plating of nickel is the "external" source which is the reason why I mentioned it. That's self evident - see fig 10 in the report and pages 46 and 47 of Vander Voort's WTC talk slides.

ill hold my judgement until jones or anyone else releases data to show that thermate can or can not look like the wtc 7 steel under the scope! if it does, then a thermitic reaction which would be hot and fast would be a scenario to consider since we saw 15.9mm gone in 8 days and an inch in just 8-18 days.
I wouldn't hold your breath.

bypassing the critical step of the office/debris fire causing the eutectic to attack the steel in the first place.
No, that's not how science is done. There is a valid reason why the FeS powder was used which has been explained to you. The FeS-FeO eutectic (as well as internal sulphidation and oxidation) was formed in the experiment - see page 9 of the report.

What experiment are you asking for?

i read about him before i emailed him. he is a very learned man. gotta respect that.
So why do you not think that his conclusions, along with the other authors, are correct?
 
Thanks Tri,

I read this and am not sure how I can use it. Does it relate to the impossibility of determining the source of the eutectic steel, or iron microspheres, or something completely different?
 
I will ask my boss to help me explain it better. He mentioned that paper when I spoke to him last.

Sunstealer, care to take a stab at it? ( http://www.doctorfire.com/arcbeads.pdf ) I think what it is saying is that they want to come up with a definitive way of determining if a metal bead found in the rubble of a fire is caused by arcing, or by heat from the fire.
 
How many people where there at this debate? (Please forgive me for not wanting to read back)

EDIT:

I'm listening to it now and the applause actually sounded pretty loud. I'm guessing 200 or so?

Also, listening to Richard Gage talk is rather annoying. He is regurgitating(sp) the same crap that every other truther has spit up for the last 5 years. "You see a 13 story....I see a 2 story pile"....cmon Gage.
 
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How many people where there at this debate? (Please forgive me for not wanting to read back)

EDIT:

I'm listening to it now and the applause actually sounded pretty loud. I'm guessing 200 or so?

Also, listening to Richard Gage talk is rather annoying. He is regurgitating(sp) the same crap that every other truther has spit up for the last 5 years. "You see a 13 story....I see a 2 story pile"....cmon Gage.
Hi Scott, 250 people were at the debate, almost all Gage supporters, and thankfully almost all very respectful.
 
Simple Question #7

The explosion during the phone booth conversation... it's been claimed that the explosive sound was added later. The behavior of the people at the phone booth shows me that the explosion was not insanely loud, but does anyone have a direct link to the original video so we can compare the volume of the explosion?
 
Not due to thermite, the structure would be different. Suggest you take one or two semesters of chemical engineering, and come back and try again. 9 years is a long time to keep false ideas on a topic.

It would not surprise me if there was some sort of pyrolysis process occurring in the smoldering piles that created a corrosive brew. ( I am by no means a chemist of chemical engineer, but you had lots of material, heat, and potentially low oxygen environments.)
 
How do you guys cope with the insanity? The more I listen to this debate the more I want to find Gage, grab him and call him an outright liar. There is no way he actually believes this anymore. He sees this as his meal ticket, his ticket to be on the radio, his ticket for attention, and without this he goes back to being a normal joe schmo. I'm not stating anything revolutionary here, I just felt the need to type this rant out. Thanks for your reading time JREF =).



EDIT:

Ok I'm bored and I want to address a few things and maybe get some of your opinions on this....I lurk the hell out of these boards, however, I am still very new to the whole debunking / truth debate so bare with me..

1.) "My oppt must resolve the symmetrical free fall collapse of building 7 without the use of explosives"

I thought this was resolved years ago when we saw the collapse begin with the penthouse or whatever? Am I wrong here to think he's really stretching the truth?

2.) "The melting of steel girdir as documented by structural engineers and fema"

Is this another stretch?

3.) "The documented finding of several tones of molten steel or iron found in the basements of all three buildings"

Proove to me that it was steel and I'm with you on the "DEBATE IS OVER" argument.

4.) "The billions of previously molten iron microspheres discovered by the USGS in the WTC Dust...."

Who is the USGS? and is this claim remotely correct?

5.)"The red/grey chips of advanced energetic nanothermite composite materials" (fansy statement Gage)

This is that "Peer" reviewed paper by Stephen Jones that has been pretty much debunked right?

This is the best part so far......

"Could it be because we...unlike NIST, apply the time honored Scientific Method which many of us learned in the 7th or 8th grade........it starts with honest background research"

Is that just a fancy way for him to say Youtube? I mean that made me outright laugh. Richard Gage is much more familiar with the scientific method than NIST, are you kidding me????
 
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How come he doesn't stop citing this by now then? It makes me very angry for some reason and it's soemthing I think I need to just let go.
Gage has found a way to stay off Unemployment.

It iron is funny, guess what is an abundant element on earth? Oxygen, Silicon, Aluminum, then Iron. Gee, if you take a magnet outside, you get iron. They found iron, how did that happen? Gage is making money, would it be better if he was on Unemployment? No then my wife's checks might dry up before she gets a job here in CA.

They want a new investigation, they were asleep for the first ones, and are asleep when they sign up for the fraud of Gage.
 
How come he doesn't stop citing this by now then? It makes me very angry for some reason and it's soemthing I think I need to just let go.

Same reason he clings to the dust clouds being "pyroclastic". WOW factor.

Some people on his facebook page STILL refer to the clouds as pyroclastic. UNREAL.
 
Gage has found a way to stay off Unemployment.

It iron is funny, guess what is an abundant element on earth? Oxygen, Silicon, Aluminum, then Iron. Gee, if you take a magnet outside, you get iron. They found iron, how did that happen? Gage is making money, would it be better if he was on Unemployment? No then my wife's checks might dry up before she gets a job here in CA.

They want a new investigation, they were asleep for the first ones, and are asleep when they sign up for the fraud of Gage.

Well put.
 
There he goes again at 1 hour exactly contradicting himself again like he did on the Gravy Debate. "The force to project these beams outward had to be uncanny".

Yet you say 30 minutes ago that to be secret you would use an incendiary that does not go boom and just cuts through beams vs blowing them up.

HAS HE NOT OPENED HIS EYES YET ?????? Ok guys I'm sorry for dragging this out I'm done for now with these absurd double posts :)

ugh.
 
Scott, I am bored too, so here some quick guiding answers from the top of my head:

...
1.) "My oppt must resolve the symmetrical free fall collapse of building 7 without the use of explosives"

I thought this was resolved years ago when we saw the collapse begin with the penthouse or whatever? Am I wrong here to think he's really stretching the truth?

- The condition he sets up is absurd. Why should a symmetric building not fall somewhat symmetrically?
- He is wall aware that the condition cannot be met in a debate. Since global collapse is a chaotic process, only very powerful computers, fed with detailed models of the structure and well-reasoned parameters for fire loads etc., could do this. However, since this approach is almost by definition opaque (you can't check its validity by reading and some quick googling), truthers will reject it immediately.
- But to strike dowmn that condition, one of course needs to only point out that the collapse wasn't very symmetric: WTC7 twisted as it fell, and caused different amounts and areas of debris and collateral damage on its four sides.

In other words: Gage LIES in order to trap you in an impossible to meet condition.

2.) "The melting of steel girdir as documented by structural engineers and fema"

Is this another stretch?

He is talking about two pieces of steel found in the rubble that showed an unusual degree and kind of corrosion and were analysed by fire scientists from Worchester Politechnic Institute (WPI), Mr. Barnett, Biderman and Sisson; a version of that analysis became appendix C of the first FEMA report.

What happened there is something that metallurgists call "intergranular melting of eutectics". It is a slow, microscopic process during which no bit of the steel became molten in a layman's sense that one would picture as a flowing and dripping liquid. Instead, the steel just wears off grain by grain. This happened over a period of at least 8 days on the pieces studies, during which some inches flaked off.

Gage indeed is telling his audience a LIE, because he must be aware that all the non-metallurguists will likely misconstrue this as "whooo, steel got 1500°C hot and melted away like ice in the sunshine".

3.) "The documented finding of several tones of molten steel or iron found in the basements of all three buildings"

Proove to me that it was steel and I'm with you on the "DEBATE IS OVER" argument.

Scott, of course the debate isn't over then. No theory has been proposed for any alternative collapse scenario that also explains "tons of molten iron", especially in light of the fact that the alleged observbations were recorded days, weeks, even months later. Thermite with it's low energy content surely couldn't do that - it burns off quickly, and solidifies minutes later.

But the more important point is of course that in fact NO evidence for significant amounts of molten STEEL exists. None of the eye witness accounts can be corroborated, and all have reasoms to doubt them (usually the lack of opportunity or qualification of the observer to identify molten steelk as such, rather than some other molten material, or solid, glowing steel. In many cases we know that truthers misconstrue some of the accounts to embellish them.

4.) "The billions of previously molten iron microspheres discovered by the USGS in the WTC Dust...."

Who is the USGS? and is this claim remotely correct?

Not sure if the USGS reported iron microspheres. All I remember is long charts of elements to various locations.
When we debate "iron microspheres", more usually reference is made to a study by the RJ Lee group about the contamination of 130 Liberty Street (Deutsche Bank building). They reported 6% by mass iron-rich microspheres and note in passing that these are entirely expected in the ashes of building fires and collapses. They don't elaborate on the why, and this is, frankly, one of the few things I don't understand yet.

But of course the important point is that Gage would LIE if he misconstrued the iron-RICH spheres as IRON-spheres (not sure if he did or if you were sloppy paraphrasing his argument). In reality, you will find almost no elemental iron in such spheres, and I don't know that anybody has.

5.)"The red/grey chips of advanced energetic nanothermite composite materials" (fansy statement Gage)

This is that "Peer" reviewed paper by Stephen Jones that has been pretty much debunked right?

Yep.
I have a messy little blog where I collected most of the debunker points; there's little structure, but has all the links to where Sunstealer showed what the chips REALLY are: two different kinds of paint/primner on rust flakes.

This is the best part so far......

"Could it be because we...unlike NIST, apply the time honored Scientific Method which many of us learned in the 7th or 8th grade........it starts with honest background research"

Is that just a fancy way for him to say Youtube? I mean that made me outright laugh. Richard Gage is much more familiar with the scientific method than NIST, are you kidding me????

Zero scientific papers in respected, peer-revied architecture journals.
Zero scientific papers in respected, peer-revied engineering journals.
Somehow, none of these a&e know where to take science to make it matter.
 
I will ask my boss to help me explain it better. He mentioned that paper when I spoke to him last.

Sunstealer, care to take a stab at it? ( http://www.doctorfire.com/arcbeads.pdf ) I think what it is saying is that they want to come up with a definitive way of determining if a metal bead found in the rubble of a fire is caused by arcing, or by heat from the fire.
That's exactly what it's saying. The results are inconclusive. Basically there isn't a statistically significant difference between the two groups' characteristics eg: shape, oxgen content, grain size etc. The characteristics of the "cause" and "victim" beads overlap too much so it's impossible to tell them apart conclusively.

Interesting paper.
 
Sun,

Thanks. One last question. Would this paper be conclusive that you would expect to find small droplets of molten metal as commonplace in a fire?

That is kinda what I was looking for.


Chrismohr,

I spoke to MY boss today, and he will try to find a good paper that addresses metal commonly found in debris that has been melted. Ie: Iron particles specifically.
 

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