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Frankly, I think debating the issue of T4, while not a freaking waste of time, doesn't fit here. The victims of T4 were not Jews qua Jews (if they were even Jews at all) and as such are no more relevant to a discussion of the holocaust than the shrunken heads or the lampshades are. There's also the fact that nobody denies the existence of T4 so there's nothing to "debate."

Well I don't accept the existence of T4. I do think there is a possibility that there was some kind of euthanasia but I can not be certain and the extent of this program I am unsure. But I don't believe so called "wild euthanasia" took place.

1. I have visited Hartheim and looked at the plans which Mauthausen prisoners say the crematorium and chimney supposedly represented - and they look entirely implausible. Supposedly there was a free standing chimney stack built in the courtyard that was over four stories high, and of course totally dismantled without a trace just before the Allies turned up.

2. Since we know Treblinka, Sobibor were both transit camps and Belzec was a work camp and most of the personnel of these camps were supposed to have come from T4, it doesn't make sense that people working in transit camps should have been preferentially chosen from people running "wild euthanasia" facilities. Commonsense then suggests there must be something gravely wrong with the orthodox narrative of euthanasia.
 
Well I don't accept the existence of T4. I do think there is a possibility that there was some kind of euthanasia but I can not be certain and the extent of this program I am unsure. But I don't believe so called "wild euthanasia" took place.

1. I have visited Hartheim and looked at the plans which Mauthausen prisoners say the crematorium and chimney supposedly represented - and they look entirely implausible. Supposedly there was a free standing chimney stack built in the courtyard that was over four stories high, and of course totally dismantled without a trace just before the Allies turned up.

2. Since we know Treblinka, Sobibor were both transit camps and Belzec was a work camp and most of the personnel of these camps were supposed to have come from T4, it doesn't make sense that people working in transit camps should have been preferentially chosen from people running "wild euthanasia" facilities. Commonsense then suggests there must be something gravely wrong with the orthodox narrative of euthanasia.

Utter gibberish from you, as usual.

You 'can not be certain' about something - is that because you haven't bothered to read any of the half dozen studies on euthanasia which are relatively accessible?

You certainly haven't been reading the many studies on individual centres, which usually include chapters on the archaeological remains of the killing facilities and crematoria. Several T4 centres were affected by chimney fires due to overloading the crematoria, and these survive as traces to this day. Hartheim began by using the regular chimney and only after one such fire was a separate chimney constructed, which was then eminently dismantleable in the spring of 1945.

As you're a Krema Denier who seems to believe that the Soviets could construct entire crematoria in a matter of weeks after liberation, then your skepticism that the Nazis were capable of dismantling a chimney is utterly hilarious.

Since we know Treblinka, Sobibor were both transit camps and Belzec was a work camp and most of the personnel of these camps were supposed to have come from T4, it doesn't make sense that people working in transit camps should have been preferentially chosen from people running "wild euthanasia" facilities.
You contradict yourself here. The personnel came from T4 not from "wild euthanasia" hospitals. Ergo the evidence for T4 = six centres is intimately tied to the evidence for Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka.

This much has been appreciated ever since Poliakov wrote the first overview on the Final Solution in 1951. But it has consistently escaped Holocaust deniers who pretend there is no connection.

It does not indeed make any sense that killers who previously worked in facilities with gas chambers would be assigned to "transit camps". That's because they weren't transit camps.
 
You certainly haven't been reading the many studies on individual centres, which usually include chapters on the archaeological remains of the killing facilities and crematoria. Several T4 centres were affected by chimney fires due to overloading the crematoria, and these survive as traces to this day. Hartheim began by using the regular chimney and only after one such fire was a separate chimney constructed, which was then eminently dismantleable in the spring of 1945.

Well I saw the museum display on the archaelogical finding and frankly it looked the same as you might expect any midden or rubbish dump in a longstanding castle.

Regarding the enormous chimney situated in the middle of the courtyard, there is not a single piece of evidence aside from Mauthausen prisoners. If it was dismantled it was the only thing in the region dismantled - as they didn't even attempt to dismantle the crematoria in Gusen and Mauthausen.

You contradict yourself here. The personnel came from T4 not from "wild euthanasia" hospitals. Ergo the evidence for T4 = six centres is intimately tied to the evidence for Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka.

But since we know that Sobibor and Treblinka were transit camps and Belzec a work camp, it doesn't make sense to recruit staff from an alleged gassing operation in 6 chateaus.

This is your bizarrest argument yet.
 
To be precise Carl Jacob Burckhardt told US diplomats that he had seen an order signed by Hitler saying all Jews must be killed by December 1942.

Obviously Carl Jacob Burckhardt was lying in as much he saw no such signed order - irrespective of whether you believe such a signed order did exist or not.

And this is a repeat of one of your innumerable lies. Burckhardt said no such thing, he said he had been informed of the existence of such an order by two German officials. He never said he saw a signed order himself. (Favez, pp.291-2 reproduces the US consul's write-up of the meeting with Burckhardt)
 
You can tell what a man really believes by the way he lies

As you're a Krema Denier who seems to believe that the Soviets could construct entire crematoria in a matter of weeks after liberation, then your skepticism that the Nazis were capable of dismantling a chimney is utterly hilarious.

Of course as Dr Terry is well aware, I don't believe the Soviets constructed crematoria in Birkenau. I think there were two existing bakeries and two existing weaving mills and a genuine crematoria in an area known as the bunker.

So they didn't have to construct any buildings whatsoever. Dr Terry is well aware of this and I presume that his constant need to distort what is a very clear and straightforward argument with such bad faith strawmen suggests he believes I am right and is only maintaining the opposite for the purposes of his career.

In fact when Dr Terry was offered funding to repeat the GPR study at Treblinka, he declined stating that to carry out such research would be bad for his career.

Of course, he is absolutely right in that regard.
 
And this is a repeat of one of your innumerable lies. Burckhardt said no such thing, he said he had been informed of the existence of such an order by two German officials. He never said he saw a signed order himself. (Favez, pp.291-2 reproduces the US consul's write-up of the meeting with Burckhardt)

Fair enough, I was relying on unreliable Jewish secondary sources for this conversation - always a bad idea. I appreciate you pointing out the original.

So let us see just how weak and unsubstantiated the claim that Dr Terry was pinning so much on.

I then asked him whether the word "extermination" or its equivalent was employed, to which he replied that the words "must be Juden-frei" (free of Jews) were utilised. He then made it clear that since there was no place to send these Jews and since the territory must be cleared of this race, it is obvious what the net result would be.

Dr. Burckhardt attempted to obtain information from the German Red Cross representative who visited Geneva about three weeks ago by requesting "verbally but officially" news regarding the situation of the Jews. To which question the response came that nobody in Germany knows the real situation, but that it is in any case greatly exaggerated

So Dr Burckhardt heres that Hitler has ordered that all Jews are to be deported from Germany. But we already knew that happened. That is why they constructed the Durchgangslager of Malkinia and Sobibor....
 
Well I saw the museum display on the archaelogical finding and frankly it looked the same as you might expect any midden or rubbish dump in a longstanding castle.

Regarding the enormous chimney situated in the middle of the courtyard, there is not a single piece of evidence aside from Mauthausen prisoners. If it was dismantled it was the only thing in the region dismantled - as they didn't even attempt to dismantle the crematoria in Gusen and Mauthausen.

The crematoria at Gusen and Mauthausen were in use until the camps were liberated. Crematoria in concentration camps were to be expected, not in psychiatric hospitals.

Actually the excavations at Hartheim unearthed large quantities of ashes and bone fragments, in addition to other items - most pieces of personal property from the victims.

Frankly, what YOU made of the exhibition or the physical condition of the site today is utterly irrelevant, since you are most notorious for confabulating a conspiracy theory, Krema Denial, so monumentally silly that even other revisionists refuse to endorse it.

But since we know that Sobibor and Treblinka were transit camps and Belzec a work camp, it doesn't make sense to recruit staff from an alleged gassing operation in 6 chateaus.

This is your bizarrest argument yet.

But we know no such thing.

We know that there are documents specifying that personnel were transferred from T4 to Globocnik (Brack-Himmler, 23 June 1942), and that 92 of these men were used in something called Aktion Reinhard (AR personnel report). We know that the first commandant of Treblinka had previously headed up the Bernburg facility (report from Eberl on Bernburg; letters from Eberl from Treblinka). We know that the names of the SS serving in the AR camps are the same as the names for T4 personnel (various documents, personnel files, a promotions list of AR personnel). And we know that Christian Wirth served as the first commandant of Belzec, the inspector of the AR camps, and had previous served in T4 (Wirth's personnel file, numerous documents identifying him as inspector of AR and as commandant of Belzec).

We also know that Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka were most often referred to as 'SS-Sonderkommando'. This is amply documented from the personnel records of the Trawnikis, as well as recommendations for the awards of the Kriegsverdienstkreuz, and other sources, including Eberl's letters. The official designation of these camps was thus clearly, SS-Sonderkommando. From the same sources, we know that these Sonderkommandos were involved in Einsatz R or Einsatz Reinhardt and that other SS men belonging to the deportation staffs were as well. This program was described as involving "Judenumsiedlung" which was most often put in euphemising inverted commas. Sometimes the writers spoke of the involvement of these men in the "Judenendloesungsfrage".

Over and above all this, we also know that thousands of Jews were taken to "T II" to be 'destroyed' during the Warsaw ghetto uprising. We know that police units delivered large transports of Jews from Galicia to "Belzec", which lies to the west of the towns from which these Jews were deported. Before departure hundreds had been shot while hundreds more were shot en route and many more still suffocating to death in overcrowded trains.

We know that large transports of Jews from Warsaw and from the Krakow district were deported to Treblinka and to Belzec in the summer of 1942 (Wolff-Ganzenmueller correspondence). We know that German railway officials planned deportations to Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka in September 1942 (transport conference minutes). We know that a variety of trains left Polish towns with transports of Jews to Treblinka (Gedob records) in the summer of 1942. And we know that the Hoefle telegram reported on the overall "intake" (Zugang) to B, S, T and L during the whole of 1942, producing a figure matching one appearing in the Korherr report.

In turn, we know that the Korherr report's wording was euphemised from 'Sonderbehandlung' to a phrase ordered directly by Himmler, who decreed that the wording be changed to a euphemistic 'sluiced through the camps in the Generalgouvernement'.

This is the only time that the word 'through' appears in any connection with these camps. Every other time is 'to'. So these must have been exceptionally overcrowded camps, since there is no evidence of more than a fractional selection on arrival at these camps for labour elsewhere (mainly Sobibor, never Belzec, only occasionally Treblinka) which cannot account for the whereabouts of the remaining 98% of the deportees.

What we are left with are merely a couple of references, one calling Sobibor an 'Arbeitslager'. But the report in question specifies a selection whereby a tiny fraction of the transport from Vienna were selected as fit for work and sent to another camp. Thus the other 950 or so deportees were judged unfit and yet were being sent to an 'Arbeitslager'. Common sense regards this reference as a euphemism.

A year or so later, Himmler and Pohl have a correspondence in which they speak of 'transit camp' (Durchgangslager) Sobibor, the only time Sobibor is so referred in all of the records. Neither Treblinka nor Belzec are ever so labelled. Common sense regards this reference as a euphemism. Belzec was never referred to as a work camp in 1942-3; a work camp had existed there in 1940 and been closed down in the same year.

Not only do we know all this, we also know that the senior civil leadership of the relevant region, the Generalgouvernement, kept on referring to the destruction of the Jews in their territory and even how the Jews were being killed.

And we also observe what must have been a truly epic failure of PR and communications skills since the Jews, learning of their intended fate, began to flee in ever larger numbers to the point where thousands were documented as shot during the deportation actions for resisting and thousands more were hunted down and documented as shot while fugitives. Orders were published threatening Poles with execution for sheltering Jews, and indeed entire villages are documented as being wiped out for doing just that.

You are welcome to try and reinterpret the entire documentary record of the Holocaust in the GG but only if it is, in fact, the entire record.

Or you are welcome to consider all the surviving witnesses - SS, Trawniki, Jewish and Polish bystander - to Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, and demonstrate that the preponderance of the witnesses said it was a transit camp.

You are also welcome to explain why Treblinka stunk to high heaven because of dead Jews in October 1942 so that it was reported and documented as stinking to high heaven.

And you are also welcome to explain why the Polish underground consistently reported on transports entering these camps and not coming out, and documenting the arrivals, start of exhumation/cremation, revolts and liquidation of these camps, in a series of monthly reports as well as other reports, which stretch across 1942-3.

And finally you are also welcome to explain why when liberated the camp sites were found covered in human remains, bone fragments and ash, and there was good evidence of sizeable mass graves having been dug, then dug up, emptied and their contents destroyed - bigger than anything which a "labour camp" or "transit camp" would warrant.

Reply to all of this systematically, without fisking or omissions, or go back on ignore.
 
You can tell what a man really believes by the way he lies

Of course as Dr Terry is well aware, I don't believe the Soviets constructed crematoria in Birkenau.

Really? The last time I listened to your blether about Krema Denial, in 2009, you were struggling to explain the basements in Kremas II and III. Of course you were unable to come up with a coherent explanation for the evidence or theory of how the crematoria were faked.

I think there were two existing bakeries and two existing weaving mills and a genuine crematoria in an area known as the bunker.

So they didn't have to construct any buildings whatsoever. Dr Terry is well aware of this and I presume that his constant need to distort what is a very clear and straightforward argument with such bad faith strawmen suggests he believes I am right and is only maintaining the opposite for the purposes of his career.

Not even you believe you are right. And it's clear that nobody else does, I certainly don't.

So was it the bakeries or the weaving mills which had the complex basements whose ruins are visible today? I'm always game for a laugh.

In fact when Dr Terry was offered funding to repeat the GPR study at Treblinka, he declined stating that to carry out such research would be bad for his career.

Of course, he is absolutely right in that regard.

I challenge you to produce any such quote from me.
 
Frankly, I think debating the issue of T4, while not a freaking waste of time, doesn't fit here. The victims of T4 were not Jews qua Jews (if they were even Jews at all) and as such are no more relevant to a discussion of the holocaust than the shrunken heads or the lampshades are. There's also the fact that nobody denies the existence of T4 so there's nothing to "debate."

Go ask your buddy "Hannover" whether he believes people were gassed in T4.

By the way, because they were gassed in T4, it is ENORMOUSLY relevant here.
 
Strange you don't mention how these final days of his life are turning out.

I have to give the Israelis credit where credit is due, however. When they made a mistake, they admitted it and let Demanjuk go free. It's too bad the Germans aren't man enough to do the same.

And, BTW, it wasn't a "Jewish court" that freed Demanjuk. It was an "Israeli court." There's a difference between the two. Even though everybody knows that the Israeli government is controlled by the Jews.

Do you know how regularly Arabs have served on that court?
 
Actually the Red Cross of the day informed US diplomats in Switzerland that there was a genocide.



Yeah sure they did. I'll bite. Who's there?

Maybe you've missed the periodic lies about conjured up antisemitic incidents over the past 50 years.
 
The crematoria at Gusen and Mauthausen were in use until the camps were liberated. Crematoria in concentration camps were to be expected, not in psychiatric hospitals.

Actually the excavations at Hartheim unearthed large quantities of ashes and bone fragments, in addition to other items - most pieces of personal property from the victims.

Frankly, what YOU made of the exhibition or the physical condition of the site today is utterly irrelevant, since you are most notorious for confabulating a conspiracy theory, Krema Denial, so monumentally silly that even other revisionists refuse to endorse it.



But we know no such thing.

We know that there are documents specifying that personnel were transferred from T4 to Globocnik (Brack-Himmler, 23 June 1942), and that 92 of these men were used in something called Aktion Reinhard (AR personnel report). We know that the first commandant of Treblinka had previously headed up the Bernburg facility (report from Eberl on Bernburg; letters from Eberl from Treblinka). We know that the names of the SS serving in the AR camps are the same as the names for T4 personnel (various documents, personnel files, a promotions list of AR personnel). And we know that Christian Wirth served as the first commandant of Belzec, the inspector of the AR camps, and had previous served in T4 (Wirth's personnel file, numerous documents identifying him as inspector of AR and as commandant of Belzec).

We also know that Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka were most often referred to as 'SS-Sonderkommando'. This is amply documented from the personnel records of the Trawnikis, as well as recommendations for the awards of the Kriegsverdienstkreuz, and other sources, including Eberl's letters. The official designation of these camps was thus clearly, SS-Sonderkommando. From the same sources, we know that these Sonderkommandos were involved in Einsatz R or Einsatz Reinhardt and that other SS men belonging to the deportation staffs were as well. This program was described as involving "Judenumsiedlung" which was most often put in euphemising inverted commas. Sometimes the writers spoke of the involvement of these men in the "Judenendloesungsfrage".

Over and above all this, we also know that thousands of Jews were taken to "T II" to be 'destroyed' during the Warsaw ghetto uprising. We know that police units delivered large transports of Jews from Galicia to "Belzec", which lies to the west of the towns from which these Jews were deported. Before departure hundreds had been shot while hundreds more were shot en route and many more still suffocating to death in overcrowded trains.

We know that large transports of Jews from Warsaw and from the Krakow district were deported to Treblinka and to Belzec in the summer of 1942 (Wolff-Ganzenmueller correspondence). We know that German railway officials planned deportations to Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka in September 1942 (transport conference minutes). We know that a variety of trains left Polish towns with transports of Jews to Treblinka (Gedob records) in the summer of 1942. And we know that the Hoefle telegram reported on the overall "intake" (Zugang) to B, S, T and L during the whole of 1942, producing a figure matching one appearing in the Korherr report.

In turn, we know that the Korherr report's wording was euphemised from 'Sonderbehandlung' to a phrase ordered directly by Himmler, who decreed that the wording be changed to a euphemistic 'sluiced through the camps in the Generalgouvernement'.

This is the only time that the word 'through' appears in any connection with these camps. Every other time is 'to'. So these must have been exceptionally overcrowded camps, since there is no evidence of more than a fractional selection on arrival at these camps for labour elsewhere (mainly Sobibor, never Belzec, only occasionally Treblinka) which cannot account for the whereabouts of the remaining 98% of the deportees.

What we are left with are merely a couple of references, one calling Sobibor an 'Arbeitslager'. But the report in question specifies a selection whereby a tiny fraction of the transport from Vienna were selected as fit for work and sent to another camp. Thus the other 950 or so deportees were judged unfit and yet were being sent to an 'Arbeitslager'. Common sense regards this reference as a euphemism.

A year or so later, Himmler and Pohl have a correspondence in which they speak of 'transit camp' (Durchgangslager) Sobibor, the only time Sobibor is so referred in all of the records. Neither Treblinka nor Belzec are ever so labelled. Common sense regards this reference as a euphemism. Belzec was never referred to as a work camp in 1942-3; a work camp had existed there in 1940 and been closed down in the same year.

Not only do we know all this, we also know that the senior civil leadership of the relevant region, the Generalgouvernement, kept on referring to the destruction of the Jews in their territory and even how the Jews were being killed.

And we also observe what must have been a truly epic failure of PR and communications skills since the Jews, learning of their intended fate, began to flee in ever larger numbers to the point where thousands were documented as shot during the deportation actions for resisting and thousands more were hunted down and documented as shot while fugitives. Orders were published threatening Poles with execution for sheltering Jews, and indeed entire villages are documented as being wiped out for doing just that.

You are welcome to try and reinterpret the entire documentary record of the Holocaust in the GG but only if it is, in fact, the entire record.

Or you are welcome to consider all the surviving witnesses - SS, Trawniki, Jewish and Polish bystander - to Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, and demonstrate that the preponderance of the witnesses said it was a transit camp.

You are also welcome to explain why Treblinka stunk to high heaven because of dead Jews in October 1942 so that it was reported and documented as stinking to high heaven.

And you are also welcome to explain why the Polish underground consistently reported on transports entering these camps and not coming out, and documenting the arrivals, start of exhumation/cremation, revolts and liquidation of these camps, in a series of monthly reports as well as other reports, which stretch across 1942-3.

And finally you are also welcome to explain why when liberated the camp sites were found covered in human remains, bone fragments and ash, and there was good evidence of sizeable mass graves having been dug, then dug up, emptied and their contents destroyed - bigger than anything which a "labour camp" or "transit camp" would warrant.

Reply to all of this systematically, without fisking or omissions, or go back on ignore.


This is the only time that the word 'through' appears in any connection with these camps. Every other time is 'to'. So these must have been exceptionally overcrowded camps, since there is no evidence of more than a fractional selection on arrival at these camps for labour elsewhere (mainly Sobibor, never Belzec, only occasionally Treblinka) which cannot account for the whereabouts of the remaining 98% of the deportees.


Which means that through all your lugubrious BS the only truthful fact is the actual "fractional" part.

You absurdly insist the Germans implemented, with nary a hint of suspicion or alarm and outcry, the movement, murder and physical disposal of over 10,000 Jewish people a week.

Thereby demanding that millions of the Jewish people, regarded as the most intelligent, most educated of the time and to this very day, succumbed to this without catching on to what was to be their fate?

Your Holocaust demands and celebrates that those Jewish people were mindless idiots. Well I know they were not.
 
You absurdly insist the Germans implemented, with nary a hint of suspicion or alarm and outcry, the movement, murder and physical disposal of over 10,000 Jewish people a week.

Who told you there was no suspicion or alarm or outcry?

Thereby demanding that millions of the Jewish people, regarded as the most intelligent, most educated of the time and to this very day, succumbed to this without catching on to what was to be their fate?

Who told you that? Do you believe everything you read?

Your Holocaust demands and celebrates that those Jewish people were mindless idiots. Well I know they were not.

Because you love the Jews, right?
 
Yeah sure they did. I'll bite. Who's there?

Memorandum
Interview with Dr Carl J. Burckhart
11:30am November 7, 1942
re Jewish Persecution

Following my receipt of more than one report that Hitler had issued a written order for the extermination of the Jews when, at the suggestion of the Honorable Leland Harrison, I asked Dr. Carl Burckhardt, distinguished member of the International Committee of the Red Cross, whether he was in a position to confirm the existence of such an order, he replied that while he had not actually seen the order he could confirm to me privately and not for publication as follows: that Hitler at the beginning of 1941 signed an Order that before the end of 1942 Germany must be free of all Jews. He emphasised that his information came independently from two 'very well informed Germans' in whom he allowed me to understand that he placed unlimited confidence. (Note: there is an intimation that the two sources are (1) an official of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs and (2) an official of the German Ministry of War, at Berlin.)
I then asked him whether the word extermination, or its equivalent, was employed, to which he replied that the words must be Juden-frei (free of Jews) were utilised. He then made it clear that since there is no place to send these Jews and since the territory must be cleared of this race, it is obvious what the net result would be.
Dr Burckhardt attempted to obtain information from the German Red Cross representative who visited Geneva about three weeks ago by requesting 'verbally but officially' news regarding the situation of the Jews. To which question the response came that nobody in Germany knows the real situation, but it is in any case greatly exaggerated. Dr Burckhardt commented that this was the only sort of reply that the representative could afford to make.

Favez, Jean-Claude, The Red Cross and the Holocaust; edited and translated by John and Beryl Fletcher. New York : Cambridge University Press, 1999. (French orig 1988), page 293


This meeting came five weeks after Hitler himself gave a speech on 30 September 1942

“I have said in my Reichstag speech on 1 September 1939 that if the Jews unleash an international world war, not the Aryan people will be exterminated by Jewry… Once upon a time the Jews in Germany were laughing about my prophecies, I don’t know whether they still laugh or whether they no longer feel like laughing. I can only assure them they will stop laughing everywhere and I shall be right also with these prophecies”

A Swiss newspaper, the Thurgauer Zeitung, commented after this speech [on 2 October 1942]


“There is no room for doubt any more: Hitler’s word can be interpreted only in the sense that the extermination of the Jews remains one of the points which will be carried out irrespective of the outcome of the war. Hitler had destroyed all illusions which still existed on the fate of the Jews…”
cited in Walter Laqueur, Terrible Secret, p.44


German original



“Wenn man bisher noch darüber im ungewissen sein konnte, was die nach dem Osten deportierten Juden zu erwarten hätten, so ist heute, nach Hitlers eindeutiger Erklärung, ein Zweifel darüber nicht mehr möglich. Hitlers Worte können nur in dem Sinn interpretiert werden, dass die Ausrottung der Juden einer jener Punkte seines Programms bleibt, die verwirklicht werden, wie auch der Krieg ausgehe”
cited in Bernward Dörner, Die Deutschen und der Holocaust, p.217

The Manchester Guardian likewise interpreted the speech in the same sense, as did Swedish newspapers.

Earlier that year, Goebbels had been equally blunt in the magazine Das Reich, and was quoted by multiple newspapers, here is just one free-to-view example:
To Wipe Out Jews .

‎Pittsburgh Press - Jun 12, 1942
Goebbels in an article in the publication Reich said the Jews would be exterminated throughout Europeand perhaps even beyond Europe ...

Link here


40 days after Paul Squire's meeting with the Red Cross, the United States condemned the 'bestial policy of extermination' the Nazis were directing at the Jews, in a joint Allied declaration on December 17, 1942.

This was after pretty much everyone - the US towards then-neutral Vichy France, the Vatican towards Catholic Slovakia and equally Catholic Vichy France, Churchill in the House of Commons, Sweden towards the Nazis over Norway - had protested and made representations against the deportations of the Jews from across Europe, in earlier months.

The ICRC had asked the German Red Cross whether it could provide information on the whereabouts of the deportees, and was refused. (see Favez).




Several things become very clear from the above:

1) There was international knowledge of and condemnation of the deportation of Jews
2) Nazi leaders repeatedly used words like Ausrottung and Vernichtung whose dictionary definitions at the time translated to 'extermination', regarding the Jews
3) The Nazis refused to divulge what had happened to the deported Jews

What was the world meant to assume was happening to them?
 
This is the only time that the word 'through' appears in any connection with these camps. Every other time is 'to'. So these must have been exceptionally overcrowded camps, since there is no evidence of more than a fractional selection on arrival at these camps for labour elsewhere (mainly Sobibor, never Belzec, only occasionally Treblinka) which cannot account for the whereabouts of the remaining 98% of the deportees.


Which means that through all your lugubrious BS the only truthful fact is the actual "fractional" part.

What proof do you have that the deportees went through Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka?

You absurdly insist the Germans implemented, with nary a hint of suspicion or alarm and outcry, the movement, murder and physical disposal of over 10,000 Jewish people a week.

On the contrary, there was a very substantial amount of suspicion, alarm and outcry, starting inside occupied Poland.

Thereby demanding that millions of the Jewish people, regarded as the most intelligent, most educated of the time and to this very day, succumbed to this without catching on to what was to be their fate?

Your Holocaust demands and celebrates that those Jewish people were mindless idiots. Well I know they were not.

No, they weren't mindless idiots. In 1939 hundreds of thousands fled eastwards to avoid the invaders, around 300,000 ended up in the Soviet zone or Lithuania as refugees. That's nearly 10% of the Jewish population of Poland at the time (3.3 million). Many more would undoubtedly have liked to have fled, but could not - populations do contain many elderly and young children who cannot flee like young adults can. Would your grandparents be able to escape an oncoming invader, especially if they did not own a car?

Between 1939 and 1942, the Nazis slowly squeezed the life out of the Jewish communities of Poland through depriving them of economic opportunities, restricting rations, and other measures. As a result quite a large number died of starvation in the bigger ghettos, in Lodz and Warsaw this number reached close to 100,000.

What do you think happened to the physical strength and ability to flee or resist of the Jews who survived the starvation rations?

Nonetheless, when the deportations in Poland started, between 10 and 25% of the Jewish populations of the different regions tried to flee or hide. This does not suggest a people who were entirely unaware of their fate.

They fled, despite the fact that the Nazis had issued a shoot-to-kill order on any Jew found outside the ghettos. This shoot-to-kill order cost 1,000 lives in one district in just two months. In the same district, 1,600 were shot as fugitives in six months of 1943. In another district, the police of one single county executed 1000 fugitive Jews in the same time-period.

Probably 50,000 Jews were killed as fugitives in the countryside of western Poland alone between 1942-4, and there are quite a few surviving reports to this effect.

Many more were killed inside the towns, either trying to hide, trying to resist or trying to escape. When the Jews of Poland were rounded up for deportation, the Nazis used extreme violence, deploying substantial forces of armed police to cordon off the ghettos, and executing anyone too sick to get on a train, or anyone who resisted or tried to break out of the cordons.

In many areas, especially if they were remote from rail lines, the Nazis didn't even bother with deportations. They just shot all the Jews they no longer required. A full third of the Jews of the Cracow district died that way, along with 60% of the Jews of the Galicia district.

5,000 Jews were killed in Warsaw during August and September 1942 while the Warsaw ghetto action was underway. Many times this number (one estimate places the figure at 28,000) fled underground into the city outside the ghetto at the same time. Do you think they were passively accepting their fate?

Not only did the Nazis use considerable violence, they also separated out some of the able-bodied from those judged 'unfit'. The lucky few who had been deemed able-bodied and selected, i.e the young adults, were kept back from deportation and interned in labour camps, where they had to survive another two and a half years of starvation rations, forced labour, random killings and further deportations.

In the Warsaw ghetto action, 35,000 were spared as 'legal' labourers while 11,000 were sent to labour camps after being rounded up. 5,000 were shot. 28,000 escaped underground. 250,000 actually got deported.

We know from the profiles of the survivors that they were generally younger and fitter, the deportees were more likely to be children, mothers with small children, middle aged or elderly.

So the Jews who actually made it onto the trains in 1942 - the 1.5 million or so Polish Jews who were deported in that year - were not a typical spread of the population. Many of the young had fled in 1939, or in 1942, or been selected for labour, or been shot for resisting. More young men than women could take these early escape routes because they did not have babies to look after, like many young mothers did.

Nonetheless, once on the trains, many still tried to break out and escape, jumping from the trains to flee, if they could dodge the bullets. So the Nazis wrote reports like this one

The slow journey was time and again used by the strongest Jews to press themselves through the holes they had forced open and to seek their safety in flight, because in jumping from the slow-moving train they were scarcely injured. Despite the repeated requests to the engineer to go faster, this was not possible, so that the frequent stops on open stretches became increasingly unpleasant.
.
Shortly beyond Lemberg the commando had already shot off the ammunition they had with them and also used up a further 200 rounds that they had received from army soldiers, so that for the rest of the journey they had to resort to stones while the train was moving and to fixed bayonets when the train stopped.


The ever greater panic spreading among the Jews due to the great heat, overloading of the train cars, and smell of dead bodies – when unloading the train cars some 2000 Jews were found dead in the train – made the transport almost unworkable.

In the summer heat, entire transports sometimes arrived with 80% DOA.

Once the deportees arrived at the camps, they were starved, exhausted, weakened from the train journey, and often separated from their families. They were let out of the trains in manageable sections, and marched into the camp through a cordon of men armed with rifles and machine guns. And yet, even then, there were still acts of resistance, still attempts to flee and break out.
 
This is the only time that the word 'through' appears in any connection with these camps. Every other time is 'to'. So these must have been exceptionally overcrowded camps, since there is no evidence of more than a fractional selection on arrival at these camps for labour elsewhere (mainly Sobibor, never Belzec, only occasionally Treblinka) which cannot account for the whereabouts of the remaining 98% of the deportees.


Which means that through all your lugubrious BS the only truthful fact is the actual "fractional" part.

You absurdly insist the Germans implemented, with nary a hint of suspicion or alarm and outcry, the movement, murder and physical disposal of over 10,000 Jewish people a week.

Thereby demanding that millions of the Jewish people, regarded as the most intelligent, most educated of the time and to this very day, succumbed to this without catching on to what was to be their fate?
Your Holocaust demands and celebrates that those Jewish people were mindless idiots. Well I know they were not.


First hit on Google

The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (Yiddish: אױפֿשטאַנד אין װאַרשעװער געטאָ; Polish: Powstanie w getcie warszawskim; German: Aufstand im Warschauer Ghetto) was the Jewish resistance that arose within the Warsaw Ghetto in German occupied Poland during World War II, and which opposed Nazi Germany's effort to transport the remaining ghetto population to Treblinka extermination camp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
 
What proof do you have that the deportees went through Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka?



On the contrary, there was a very substantial amount of suspicion, alarm and outcry, starting inside occupied Poland.



No, they weren't mindless idiots. In 1939 hundreds of thousands fled eastwards to avoid the invaders, around 300,000 ended up in the Soviet zone or Lithuania as refugees. That's nearly 10% of the Jewish population of Poland at the time (3.3 million). Many more would undoubtedly have liked to have fled, but could not - populations do contain many elderly and young children who cannot flee like young adults can. Would your grandparents be able to escape an oncoming invader, especially if they did not own a car?

Between 1939 and 1942, the Nazis slowly squeezed the life out of the Jewish communities of Poland through depriving them of economic opportunities, restricting rations, and other measures. As a result quite a large number died of starvation in the bigger ghettos, in Lodz and Warsaw this number reached close to 100,000.

What do you think happened to the physical strength and ability to flee or resist of the Jews who survived the starvation rations?

Nonetheless, when the deportations in Poland started, between 10 and 25% of the Jewish populations of the different regions tried to flee or hide. This does not suggest a people who were entirely unaware of their fate.

They fled, despite the fact that the Nazis had issued a shoot-to-kill order on any Jew found outside the ghettos. This shoot-to-kill order cost 1,000 lives in one district in just two months. In the same district, 1,600 were shot as fugitives in six months of 1943. In another district, the police of one single county executed 1000 fugitive Jews in the same time-period.

Probably 50,000 Jews were killed as fugitives in the countryside of western Poland alone between 1942-4, and there are quite a few surviving reports to this effect.

Many more were killed inside the towns, either trying to hide, trying to resist or trying to escape. When the Jews of Poland were rounded up for deportation, the Nazis used extreme violence, deploying substantial forces of armed police to cordon off the ghettos, and executing anyone too sick to get on a train, or anyone who resisted or tried to break out of the cordons.

In many areas, especially if they were remote from rail lines, the Nazis didn't even bother with deportations. They just shot all the Jews they no longer required. A full third of the Jews of the Cracow district died that way, along with 60% of the Jews of the Galicia district.

5,000 Jews were killed in Warsaw during August and September 1942 while the Warsaw ghetto action was underway. Many times this number (one estimate places the figure at 28,000) fled underground into the city outside the ghetto at the same time. Do you think they were passively accepting their fate?

Not only did the Nazis use considerable violence, they also separated out some of the able-bodied from those judged 'unfit'. The lucky few who had been deemed able-bodied and selected, i.e the young adults, were kept back from deportation and interned in labour camps, where they had to survive another two and a half years of starvation rations, forced labour, random killings and further deportations.

In the Warsaw ghetto action, 35,000 were spared as 'legal' labourers while 11,000 were sent to labour camps after being rounded up. 5,000 were shot. 28,000 escaped underground. 250,000 actually got deported.

We know from the profiles of the survivors that they were generally younger and fitter, the deportees were more likely to be children, mothers with small children, middle aged or elderly.

So the Jews who actually made it onto the trains in 1942 - the 1.5 million or so Polish Jews who were deported in that year - were not a typical spread of the population. Many of the young had fled in 1939, or in 1942, or been selected for labour, or been shot for resisting. More young men than women could take these early escape routes because they did not have babies to look after, like many young mothers did.

Nonetheless, once on the trains, many still tried to break out and escape, jumping from the trains to flee, if they could dodge the bullets. So the Nazis wrote reports like this one



In the summer heat, entire transports sometimes arrived with 80% DOA.

Once the deportees arrived at the camps, they were starved, exhausted, weakened from the train journey, and often separated from their families. They were let out of the trains in manageable sections, and marched into the camp through a cordon of men armed with rifles and machine guns. And yet, even then, there were still acts of resistance, still attempts to flee and break out.

The above never happened. Mainly because the Germans were fighting a war for their very survival and the manpower to control, maneuver millions of people into Poland and then kill most of them and dispose of their bodies was simply not available.
 
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