Gage's next debate

The columns were buckling in a random manner so some were providing more resistance than others. I don't know what the formula is for a typical exterior column [[FONT=&quot]W14x500] [/FONT]but the buckling columns were providing resistance into the period of FFA. i.e. The NIST model does not depict the event.


How much? [2]

If you are not able to answer this question, then you cannot say the resistance provided by buckling columns was significant.

Speculation and guesses are not arguments.
 
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How much? [2]

If you are not able to answer this question, then you cannot say the resistance provided by buckling columns was significant.

Speculation and guesses are not arguments.
Yes I can, and did. The columns were buckling in an irregular manner and some were providing resistance. You are denying the obvious as clearly stated by Sunder and will continue to do so.

[FONT=&quot]"a free fall time would be an object that has no structural components below it . . . there was structural resistance that was provided in this particular case. And you had a sequence of structural failures that had to take place. Everything was not instantaneous."

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You will continue to tap dance around this simple fact but anyone not also in denial can see that bending columns provide resistance and preclude FFA.
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[/FONT]
 
Yes I can, and did. The columns were buckling in an irregular manner and some were providing resistance.


How much? [3]

You have not answered the question, you are just repeating the same thing, "buckling columns provide resistance, buckling columns provide resistance, buckling columns provide resistance...".

It seems that you will repeat it ad eternum and will not answer the question.
 
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How much? [3]

You have not answered the question, you are just repeating the same thing, "buckling columns provide resistance, buckling columns provide resistance, buckling columns provide resistance...".

It seems that you will repeat it ad eternum and will not answer the question.
I don't know how much and you know how much, but it's more than zero. :D

If you want to believe that columns buckling in an irregular manner will provide no resistance for 100 feet, go ahead, knock your self out. :rolleyes:
 
RESISTANCE vs TORQUE

How much? [3]

You have not answered the question, you are just repeating the same thing, "buckling columns provide resistance, buckling columns provide resistance, buckling columns provide resistance...".

OK, OK, here's a question for both of you. Maybe NO ONE can say exactly how much resistance was provided by buckling columns. Could there have been a small amount of resistance in the buckling columns PLUS a small extra torquing pull from the eight stories of flooring still attached to a perimeter wall, creating net zero resistance and a net zero and freefall or even very slightly GREATER than freefall?
 
I don't know how much and you know how much, but it's more than zero. :D

If you want to believe that columns buckling in an irregular manner will provide no resistance for 100 feet, go ahead, knock your self out. :rolleyes:


Saying that is greater than zero doesn't help.

For example: 0,00001 N is greater than zero, but it's a negligible force.
 
That's what I responded to. NIST said: "This boundary condition is assumed for illustrative purposes and to produce a maximum force in the shear studs.

But they used the results in their ANSYS model.

They created a test to get the result they wanted but that is not what happened in the fire. The slab was heated at the same time the beams were heated.


Try reading what the quote says instead of trying to fit it to your predetermined conclusion.

"Consider a simple floor beam-to-girder arrangement as found" in the northeast corner of WTC7

In-plane restraint of the floor slab restrained expansion. This boundary condition is assumed for illustrative purposes and to produce a maximum force in the shear studs. This simple analysis helped to determine whether or not the failure of shear studs needs to be accounted for in the detailed ANSYS analysis of the lower 16 stories of WTC 7 (Chapter 11). In the detailed finite element analysis, the floor slabs were not restrained and the heating of the concrete slab and steel beams was determined by thermal analysis (Chapter 10). "

The unheated slab test that you are erroneously focused on, was a simple calculation to test the failure of the shear studs......as they stated to DETERMINE whether the failure of the shear studs needed to be considered.
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In simple terms, if they determined that the shear studs failed at 10 lb/in force, and the known stresses were 3000 lb/in and the know failure of the connection was 2900 lb/in then the studs failed long before the connection and do not need to be considered in the failure model. If the studs failed in the simple test at 2800 lb/in then they would obviously have to be considered.
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In the detailed finite element analysis, the floor slabs were not restrained and the heating of the concrete slab and steel beams was determined by thermal analysis (Chapter 10). "
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In simple terms, they took the information they discovered in the simple test....whether the shear studs need to be considered.....and in the DFETAILED FINITE ELEMENT ANALYSIS...did not restrain the slab and the HEATING OF THE SLAB and steel beams was determined by THERMAL ANALYSIS.

In other words.......your conclusion that

"They created a test to get the result they wanted but that is not what happened in the fire. The slab was heated at the same time the beams were heated."

is COMPLETELY WRONG
 
OK, OK, here's a question for both of you. Maybe NO ONE can say exactly how much resistance was provided by buckling columns. Could there have been a small amount of resistance in the buckling columns PLUS a small extra torquing pull from the eight stories of flooring still attached to a perimeter wall, creating net zero resistance and a net zero and freefall or even very slightly GREATER than freefall?


Yes, it's possible.

And even without this extra torquing pull, a slightly greater than freefall acceleration is possible.
 
Saying that is greater than zero doesn't help.

For example: 0,00001 N is greater than zero, but it's a negligible force.

Like the resistance an empty beer can give when you jump on it from a table.

With transfer girders and column failure, the loading on the adjacent column could have gone from 80% to 3000% instantaneously.
 
The columns were buckling in a random manner so some were providing more resistance than others. I don't know what the formula is for a typical exterior column [[FONT=&quot]W14x500] [/FONT]but the buckling columns were providing resistance into the period of FFA. i.e. The NIST model does not depict the event.

Nice dodge.

Let me repeat. How much resistance does a buckled column provide?

This should be expressed as a number, or maybe a phrase.

Care to take another stab at it?
 
And benzine has nothing to do with the subjects at hand. If you have a benzine problem, take it up with Kevin Ryan. I have no comment.

Then YOU should not have brought it up.

YOU posted something here that very easily was proven wrong. A simple "I was wrong, and shouldn't have posted that" will do just fine.
 
How much? [3]

You have not answered the question, you are just repeating the same thing, "buckling columns provide resistance, buckling columns provide resistance, buckling columns provide resistance...".

OK, OK, here's a question for both of you. Maybe NO ONE can say exactly how much resistance was provided by buckling columns. Could there have been a small amount of resistance in the buckling columns PLUS a small extra torquing pull from the eight stories of flooring still attached to a perimeter wall, creating net zero resistance and a net zero and freefall or even very slightly GREATER than freefall?

DING DING DING!!!

There are many ways that a buckled column would provide minimal resistance, but other forces (torquing, etc) will negate that resistance.
 
Does anyone know about curtain-fall collapses in fires? This I got from Vincent Dunn's book on Fire Safety. Looks like this may describe the Building 7 perimeter collapse, except that it's masonry/brick materials so my question --- would this kind of collapse scenario apply in a steel-framed building with perimeter columns?

Chris,

My bad, I forgot to address this part.

The simple answer is no.

The complex answer is that 7WTC had a facade made of granite. It's collapse included the structural steel of the building, AND the facade. Not just the facade.

In portions of the facade had come down pre-collapse, then yes, it would have been considered a curtain fall collapse. But, it would depend on how the collapse occured.

This type of collapse is usually for brick and mortor type assemblies, and are usually just for decoration, not as part of the load-bearing structure. There are exceptions to this, as Vincent pointed out.

Hope this helps.
 
BTW someone asked if I was getting paid for this debate. The answer is no. As I said at the beginning of this thread, my motivation is to give a clear, unthreatening explanation of natural collapse which people WITHIN the 911 Truth movement will see. In the March 6 live debate, twice as many people leaned more towards natural collapse than towards CD in the before-and-after polls (most of course were unchanged Truthers). I have promised my wife that after I finish filming the debate "epilogue" and other wrap-up stuff around this video, no more formal 911 debating unless I am paid VERY WELL! I may hang out with my new JREF friends tho.
 
How much? [3]

You have not answered the question, you are just repeating the same thing, "buckling columns provide resistance, buckling columns provide resistance, buckling columns provide resistance...".

OK, OK, here's a question for both of you. Maybe NO ONE can say exactly how much resistance was provided by buckling columns. Could there have been a small amount of resistance in the buckling columns PLUS a small extra torquing pull from the eight stories of flooring still attached to a perimeter wall, creating net zero resistance and a net zero and freefall or even very slightly GREATER than freefall?
It was the core columns and the floors pulling down that were causing the exterior columns to buckle. You can't add that weight twice. These were W14X500 I beams. That's 14 inches by 14 inches and weighing 500 pounds per lineal foot. They are designed to hold up 3 to 5 times the load [including people] they were required to carry. Yes they will buckle but they were buckling in an irregular manner and some were providing more resistance than others. They cannot all give way completely and suddenly allowing the building to go into FFA for 100 feet.

NIST cut the video short because it was folding up and does not look anything like the actual collapse. The "without debris damage" would not be that different than the "with debris damage" because the vierendeel action of the moment frames transferred the loads around the damaged area just like in the towers. They dont show the rest of the video or the top of the "with debris damage" graphic because it would be similar.

figure1270.jpg


Buckling columns provide uneven and significant resistance and I will not argue that part. It is axiomatic as far as I am concerned and each of us must decide for ourselves.

Do you think the top part of the top graphic will fall as fast as the top part of the bottom one?

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/1647/bucklingvnothing.jpg

Changed image to link. Stop posting the same images over and over again.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
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its called speculation. prof jones found chips with multiple layers. was this stuff sprayed on or was it pre fabricated meaning it could came in multiple layers and rolled out onto the steel. if it came say 10 layers thick, one could easily put a layer of sulfur down then more layers of the red grey chip material then sulfur and so on...
:dl: So you are going to take a brittle 20µm layer with another 15-20µm layer and roll it up!

Do you actually have any understanding of how thin that is? Copy paper is about 0.1mm thick. That's 100µm. 2 1/2 times thicker than observed in the Harrit paper. (5x if just the red layer is thermite!) What were the NWO operatives doing? Putting the stuff up like wall paper! :roll:

If it came 10 layers thick then we would have seen that in the Harrit et al paper. What no multiple layers. You do know that calculations have been done and show that a temperature rise of no more than 5° (I think it was less iirc) would occur with this thickness.

If it was sprayed on it wouldn't be sprayed on in micron thick layers now would it. Think about how long that would take to build up any sort of thickness that could actually heat the steel up. Secondly if it was hosed on then what is the gray layer for? Why not just hose on the red layer?

Ridiculous fanciful Speculation? yep. Science? no. Well done you've achieved nothing :clap:


yeah. its speculation.
so it's just :words: Great, now what? You are speculating without any sound scientific reasoning. That's called "making **** up". :jaw-dropp

The thermite reaction is Fe2O3 + 2Al --> 2Fe + Al2O3

Seeing as you are a master of speculation, could you please speculate as to why we don't see any alumina in the oxidised layer? Where did the Al2O3 go?

Shall I speculate? Martians beamed it all up aboard their spaceship. Your turn.


but he did state that this experiment exhibited the same corrosion characteristics that barnett found regarding the wtc 7 steel:
"I (with colleagues) have done the experiment with thermite + sulfur (often called "thermate") acting on a piece of WTC steel. In fact, I did the experiment with BBC filming it! Then we looked at the steel, including use of electron microscopy, and found the same characteristic corrosion as found by Barnett et al. in WTC 7 steel. OTOH, I know of no expt done to test whether gypsum and heat would have this effect -- I would be VERY surprised, as the sulfur in gypsum is not elemental Sulfur, but is bound as a sulfate (very difficult to reduce to suflur.) We should do the latter experiment to rule out such nonsense. If you can provide direct quotes from the BBC program on this point, it may prove useful in a research note on the subject."
For the 3rd time - Source please.

FYI - we know sulphur is the main driving force for this type of corrosion. Therefore we could do "the experiment" (no details of what he did are forth coming) with sulphur and Yorkshire pudding or sulphur and hamsters and still find similar corrosion.

Do you know why an FeS powder was used in the R. R. Biederman, Erin Sullivan, George F. Vander Voort, and R. D. Sisson, Jr. paper?

I'll tell you. It was quick, cheap and easy. Now it's obvious that SO2/H2S was not the only gas present - CO, CO2 would have been too. In order to look at a range of possibilities they would have had to have used specialist furnaces whereby partial pressures of gases could be controlled for long periods of time. They showed that the production of FeS at high temperature could cause a similar effect to that seen without having to perform an experiment with different conditions over long periods of time - smart people.
 
First Draft Response to Richard Gage's Debate Challenges: Twin Towers part

On the March 6 debate with Richard, Gage said I had to answer several things "or the debate is over." Ever the gentleman, I answered all of them, and in this Epilogue I am answering them again. Time is very limited, hence the bullet-point answers for all but the last of them. Richard's quotes in red; slide directions in bold. If anyone can think of a faster or better way to answer these let me know. Or if I am misunderstanding Richard's allegations??

SLIDE: The melting of steel girders... or the debate is over.
With The melting of steel girders: Some Sulfidized steel melted at temperatures1000 degrees lower than pure steel, but not enough to explain the global collapse.

SLIDE: Several tons of molten steel or iron in the debris pile of all three buildings . or the debate is over.
As for allegations of molten steel or iron: There were several tons of melted aluminum discolored by debris with a melting point of only 1200 degrees.

SLIDE[The billions of previously molten iron microspheres or the debate is over. ]

And the iron microspheres? In 70s, workers welded tens of thousands of steel beams and splattered microspheres. Even if they were created on 911, the RJ Lee study said, “Considering the high temperatures reached during the destruction of the WTC... Iron - rich spheres... would be expected to be present in the Dust.”


Slide: The red-gray chips of advanced energetic nanothermite composite material found in the WTC dust. or the debate is over."
Finally, those thermitic chipst: 1.) In that experiment, the chips were heated in air; thermites burn without oxygen, so they failed to prove thermites. 2.) Richard flashed two controversial spectographic charts on the screen that looked different, and he never explained why they prove thermites. That’s not debate, that’s obfuscation. 3.) The experiment did not separate out the naturally occurring elements and chemicals in the World Trade Center from the alleged thermitic compounds. 4.) At least two 9/11 Truth advocates have tried to do followup studies on the dust. Frédéric Henry-Couannier wrote,"Eventually the presence of nanothermite could not be confirmed.” Mark Basile got the red-gray chips to burn in air, replicating the error of the original experiment and not even measuring the energy released. I can’t take seriously fellow Truthers cooking red chips and calling it a scientific experiment. RJ Lee did a major study of the dust for Deutsche Bank in 2003 and found iron microspheres but not thermites. I am baffled that these red-gray samples have not been submitted to a reputable lab like RJ Lee for independent testing for thermites.
 

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