Merged Their Return

[dafydd]

No matter what I believed, it would not constitute reason for me to post unfounded denials, mocking language or abusive ad hominems. If your beliefs on the subject actually mattered to me (which they don't), I may post a logical refutation, probably also using historical evidence. No more, no less.

The denials are not unfounded. I cannot believe that you are taking this thread seriously. Lighten up. Your beliefs do not matter to me either. You might post a refutation but judging by your responses here and in other threads,it will not be logical. After all,you believe that UFOs=aliens. Will you be joining in Kota's moment skyward?

 

[bruto]

I'm not sure how the god of the Bible came into this, but if we're seriously intending to discuss that one, then an immediate problem arises: that god maintains consistently throughout that work that he is the only one. He is not part of some race of gods. In addition, despite the great deal of praise and worshipful attitude taken toward that god by the writers of the bible, and their pretty obvious willingness to attribute to him any virtue they could possibly get away with, they are quite silent on technological boosts and helping hands. About the best that god could do was to lay down the specs for the ark. If we stretch a point, we can give him credit for the natural polymers used to caulk it, but otherwise, there's not much evidence in the bible that that god had much interest in boosting his people's technology. Nothing the chosen people built or did appears to be outside the normal technological level of the time. If there were in fact many gods and the chosen people were not chosen, then the Bible is useless as a reference. If there was only one god and the Jews were his chosen people as it says, then any attempt to conflate him with KoTa's ET's is preposterous even by space-woo standards.

 

[dafydd]

deleted.

 

[Rramjet]

The denials are not unfounded. I cannot believe that you are taking this thread seriously. Lighten up. Your beliefs do not matter to me either. You might post a refutation but judging by your responses here and in other threads,it will not be logical. After all,you believe that UFOs=aliens. Will you be joining in Kota's moment skyward?

Oh ...I forgot to add ...posting lies is not particularly helpful either.

 

[Rramjet]

I'm not sure how the god of the Bible came into this, but if we're seriously intending to discuss that one, then an immediate problem arises: that god maintains consistently throughout that work that he is the only one. He is not part of some race of gods. In addition, despite the great deal of praise and worshipful attitude taken toward that god by the writers of the bible, and their pretty obvious willingness to attribute to him any virtue they could possibly get away with, they are quite silent on technological boosts and helping hands. About the best that god could do was to lay down the specs for the ark. If we stretch a point, we can give him credit for the natural polymers used to caulk it, but otherwise, there's not much evidence in the bible that that god had much interest in boosting his people's technology. Nothing the chosen people built or did appears to be outside the normal technological level of the time. If there were in fact many gods and the chosen people were not chosen, then the Bible is useless as a reference. If there was only one god and the Jews were his chosen people as it says, then any attempt to conflate him with KoTa's ET's is preposterous even by space-woo standards.

I suspect that KotA raised the issue of the god of the bible thinking in terms Ezekial. I don't think KotA is actually stating that "god" is ET, but his emmissaries might have been... and I also suspect that the "helping hand" is in terms of such things as the pyramids (globally et al.) and perhaps ancient Mespotamian culture (etc). I think his thesis is that what has come down to us, being decribed as "gods", might actually have been ETs - either maquerading as gods or simply being taken to be gods.

 

[dafydd]

Oh ...I forgot to add ...posting lies is not particularly helpful either.

Stop doing it.

 

[GeeMack]

What KotA is putting to you GeeMack is a proposition. As I see it (and KotA will correct me if I am wrong): What if the god of the bible (or the gods of the “ancients”) were actually ET? What if such a god (or gods) had given mankind a “helping hand” - gave us a kick-start so to speak? If so, they seem to have disappeared from the scene. How then can we get them back to help us now (in the present day)?

Actually the thread started as a game of let's-pretend, but we quickly learned that was a dishonest ruse. It was actually an attempt to pursue an agenda of using the opening ceremonies of the Olympics to call in some imaginary beings. It started out as a lie. But in the spirit of skepticism and to give the OP the benefit of the doubt even after the lie was exposed, many legitimate responses were offered. Many valid questions were asked early on to try to flesh out the thread and make it productive. For example I posted this...

I think whoever made up the scenario left out some very important points. All the responses so far have answered to the fantasy. Nobody said this, that, or the other thing was against the rules. Do these made up aliens understand English, French, Morse Code? Can they read sheet music? Are they able to perceive varying frequencies of light, radio waves, sound? Do they see everything in black and white, red and blue, a range of colors far beyond our own ability to see colors? Are they a million miles away, a thousand, hiding behind the moon, just outside our atmosphere but cloaked and invisible? Do we have to wait for them to come through a time hole or from another dimension? Can we send our request through that time hole or into that other dimension? Psychically? By smell? With shapes? Does a cake with varying thicknesses of layers mean something to these made up aliens? And that's just getting started.

The post was ignored, and I was treated with the same kind of flippant dismissal and ignorance as several other posters. Some examples...

You're new, so allow me to explain how wrong you are.

That you found the need to post, but not offer a solution reeks more of laziness, than intellectualism.

Clearly you don't want to play, so get out of way.

Start your own thread! This is a 'how to get the E.T's to descend', if the anecdotes are all correct, thread.

If you don't wish to take part, you may leave.

Your wit is only exceeded by your lack of originality.

It is no longer a wonder why I had you on my ignore list...

If you don't want to take part in the actual intended discussion, excuse yourself.

As retorts go, this one is neither funny, nor informative.

"Don't retreat, reload."

Take another shot buddy, I think you've got something useful in you, we just have to figure how how to get it past your ego.

Nothing I've asked for or of you has been dishonest or hidden.

I have repeatedly asked you to either take part in the intended discussion, or GO AWAY.

If you continue with your present course, you'll go back on my ignore list.

You sound a little paranoid, dude...

...Thank you for your input, regardless of how utterly useless.

If you don't wish to partake, go away.

The thread is filled with examples of the OP's displays of contempt for other members and disdain for their legitimate responses.

What KotA has proposed seems to be a many faceted, interesting and legitimate topic for sceptical discussion. Now of course you may legitimately argue that his proposition does not have any basis in reality – but it is not legitimate to merely state the unfounded assertion as if the mere statement of it will somehow magically confer veracity on it. What you need to do therefore is justify (using evidence and logic) why you believe KotA’s proposition does not have any basis in reality.

Absolutely not. The person making the claim that aliens exist is responsible for supporting it. The OP has described some ridiculous scenarios and made some outrageous claims about an alleged -- but not demonstrated -- reality. He has offered nothing but arguments from incredulity and ignorance to support those claims. It is not up to anyone else to show why a fantasy isn't real. It is up to the person describing something that appears to be a fantasy to show that it is real. This burden of proof thing is grade school stuff. People shouldn't get past about 12 years old without understanding it. Unfortunately too many do. And plenty of them believe in aliens.

All I see people in this thread doing is indulging in denial, mockery and thinly veiled ad hominems. While it does not surprise me that JREF members consider this to be a legitimate way to conduct a debate – to outsiders looking in, I suspect it does JREF no favours at all. It may even lead some to consider that, if this is the best they have to counter KotA's propositions, then perhasp there is something in them after all.

Nobody should be expected to counter a ridiculous proposal with anything other than ridicule. The OP took this thread directly down the path to mockery. The very first lines were...

So, lets pretend for a moment that all the anecdotes ARE accurate, that history IS a depiction of gods descending from the heavens, and that this is what people are seeing when they witness a U.F.O. The debate is over they exist.

And when people tried to play along according to that premise, they were treated with disdain and contempt and added to his ignore list one after the next. Any outsiders looking in to this thread will probably laugh at finding out some people so vigorously believe in aliens without a modicum of evidence to support those beliefs. As for "the best they have to counter KotA's propositions"? Again, the burden of proof for the existence of aliens is on the claimant. And given the complete lack of any such evidence, the proposition that anyone invest any effort into calling in something which has not even been demonstrated to exist is just flat out silly.

 

[dafydd]

Actually the thread started as a game of let's-pretend, but we quickly learned that was a dishonest ruse. It was actually an attempt to pursue an agenda of using the opening ceremonies of the Olympics to call in some imaginary beings. It started out as a lie. But in the spirit of skepticism and to give the OP the benefit of the doubt even after the lie was exposed, many legitimate responses were offered. Many valid questions were asked early on to try to flesh out the thread and make it productive. For example I posted this...

​

The post was ignored, and I was treated with the same kind of flippant dismissal and ignorance as several other posters. Some examples...

​

The thread is filled with examples of the OP's displays of contempt for other members and disdain for their legitimate responses.




Absolutely not. The person making the claim that aliens exist is responsible for supporting it. The OP has described some ridiculous scenarios and made some outrageous claims about an alleged -- but not demonstrated -- reality. He has offered nothing but arguments from incredulity and ignorance to support those claims. It is not up to anyone else to show why a fantasy isn't real. It is up to the person describing something that appears to be a fantasy to show that it is real. This burden of proof thing is grade school stuff. People shouldn't get past about 12 years old without understanding it. Unfortunately too many do. And plenty of them believe in aliens.




Nobody should be expected to counter a ridiculous proposal with anything other than ridicule. The OP took this thread directly down the path to mockery. The very first lines were...

​

And when people tried to play along according to that premise, they were treated with disdain and contempt and added to his ignore list one after the next. Any outsiders looking in to this thread will probably laugh at finding out some people so vigorously believe in aliens without a modicum of evidence to support those beliefs. As for "the best they have to counter KotA's propositions"? Again, the burden of proof for the existence of aliens is on the claimant. And given the complete lack of any such evidence, the proposition that anyone invest any effort into calling in something which has not even been demonstrated to exist is just flat out silly.

Correct. We did our best,but to no avail. The mockery is entirely justified. After all,clowns are there to be laughed at and I get the impression that Kota enjoys being laughed at.

 

[RoboTimbo]

...What you need to do therefore is justify (using evidence and logic) why you believe KotA’s proposition does not have any basis in reality...

This is typical Rrogic^TM. The most outlandish propositions are valid until someone can prove to the woo's satisfaction that they're outlandish. The woo's dishonesty and deceit are overlooked.


*Note that I'm using KotA's term, "woo".

 

[bruto]

I suspect that KotA raised the issue of the god of the bible thinking in terms Ezekial. I don't think KotA is actually stating that "god" is ET, but his emmissaries might have been... and I also suspect that the "helping hand" is in terms of such things as the pyramids (globally et al.) and perhaps ancient Mespotamian culture (etc). I think his thesis is that what has come down to us, being decribed as "gods", might actually have been ETs - either maquerading as gods or simply being taken to be gods.

Suspect what you will, it still doesn't make any more sense in your version than it does in his. Whether gods or their emissaries, they didn't give their chosen people a technological edge over the Greeks or the Egyptians. So we are back to my original objection to KotA's original thesis: if his anecdotes about gods from the skies, etc. are to be considered true, then those anecdotes themselves can be considered as evidence that those gods are essentially useless, at least in terms of technology. It's all flash and filigree, temples and altars and idols, no use to us except to facilitate our devotion to their greedy need for adulation. To hell with them. We're better off without them.

 

[Rramjet]

Suspect what you will, it still doesn't make any more sense in your version than it does in his. Whether gods or their emissaries, they didn't give their chosen people a technological edge over the Greeks or the Egyptians. So we are back to my original objection to KotA's original thesis: if his anecdotes about gods from the skies, etc. are to be considered true, then those anecdotes themselves can be considered as evidence that those gods are essentially useless, at least in terms of technology. It's all flash and filigree, temples and altars and idols, no use to us except to facilitate our devotion to their greedy need for adulation. To hell with them. We're better off without them.

I think you (and others here) have the wrong end of the stick my friend. I am neither defending nor denying KotA's claims. I am merely pointing out that he has a right to make them - and if he is incorrect then merely spouting vitriol, mockery, unfounded assertion and bullying abuse back at him (or me) will do nothing to change his (or my, or any other reader's) mind. In fact it may have precisely the opposite effect and drive people away from what JREF believes and alleges to in fact consider that if no-one can mount a considered rational arguement against him, KotA may have a point.

 

[gambling_cruiser]

I think you (and others here) have the wrong end of the stick my friend. I am neither defending nor denying KotA's claims. I am merely pointing out that he has a right to make them - and if he is incorrect then merely spouting vitriol, mockery, unfounded assertion and bullying abuse back at him (or me) will do nothing to change his (or my, or any other reader's) mind. In fact it may have precisely the opposite effect and drive people away from what JREF believes and alleges to in fact consider that if no-one can mount a considered rational arguement against him, KotA may have a point.

We'll miss those totally detached from reality, really!.

 

[Sean84]

<snip>
KotA may have a point.

You keep saying that but neither of you have bothered to make a damn point and present evidence for it.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I think you (and others here) have the wrong end of the stick my friend. I am neither defending nor denying KotA's claims. I am merely pointing out that he has a right to make them - and if he is incorrect then merely spouting vitriol, mockery, unfounded assertion and bullying abuse back at him (or me) will do nothing to change his (or my, or any other reader's) mind. In fact it may have precisely the opposite effect and drive people away from what JREF believes and alleges to in fact consider that if no-one can mount a considered rational arguement against him, KotA may have a point.

This is an unfounded assertion and we are right to dismiss it as such. This is simply you ignoring KotA's dishonesty and deceit while also ignoring what has been said to you. Go back and reread the posts that you skipped in arriving at your unfounded assertion.

Otherwise, it's just you sticking your fingers in your ears saying "LAA LAA LAA, you're all a bunch of meanines!" and no rational discussion can be had with you. At least try to address the arguments that have been raised.

 

[King of the Americas]

Suspect what you will, it still doesn't make any more sense in your version than it does in his. Whether gods or their emissaries, they didn't give their chosen people a technological edge over the Greeks or the Egyptians. So we are back to my original objection to KotA's original thesis: if his anecdotes about gods from the skies, etc. are to be considered true, then those anecdotes themselves can be considered as evidence that those gods are essentially useless, at least in terms of technology. It's all flash and filigree, temples and altars and idols, no use to us except to facilitate our devotion to their greedy need for adulation. To hell with them. We're better off without them.

They gave us the measure of time...calenders...quite useful.

What stopped Alexander's march East?

 

[King of the Americas]

Whoever wrote this is WRONG:

Absolutely not. The person making the claim that aliens exist is responsible for supporting it. The OP has described some ridiculous scenarios and made some outrageous claims about an alleged -- but not demonstrated -- reality. He has offered nothing but arguments from incredulity and ignorance to support those claims. It is not up to anyone else to show why a fantasy isn't real. It is up to the person describing something that appears to be a fantasy to show that it is real. This burden of proof thing is grade school stuff. People shouldn't get past about 12 years old without understanding it. Unfortunately too many do. And plenty of them believe in aliens.

---

First, "I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALIENS."

Second, 'I' am evidence that 'they' (non-human E.T. intelligent beings) exist. Rramjet has provided plenty of evidence from a variety of sources. There exists in EVERY form of media you can think of 'record' of non-human E.T. intelligence.

That said this thread is NOT about arguing upon whether or not it is intelligent to ignore so much information from such a wide range of sources throughout time. I've personally created a fallacy just for folks like you. It is called the "Willful Ignorance Fallacy".

This thread asks participants to 'accept' that all the anecdotes about a non-human E.T. existence are indeed true, and asks that retorts be focused on techniques or manners of inviting 'them' to descend (again, as it were).

I've provided another similar example about how an as of yet un-contacted tribe might flag down a plane passing over. How would or could the tribe let it be known to those in the L.W.B. to land?

If you are trying to argue that I haven't provided you enough evidence, then this thread isn't for you. Go away.

 

[dafydd]

I think you (and others here) have the wrong end of the stick my friend. I am neither defending nor denying KotA's claims. I am merely pointing out that he has a right to make them - and if he is incorrect then merely spouting vitriol, mockery, unfounded assertion and bullying abuse back at him (or me) will do nothing to change his (or my, or any other reader's) mind. In fact it may have precisely the opposite effect and drive people away from what JREF believes and alleges to in fact consider that if no-one can mount a considered rational arguement against him, KotA may have a point.

We can't go to Bedlam any more to see the inmates,this is the modern day equivalent.

 

[dafydd]

They gave us the measure of time...calenders...quite useful.

What stopped Alexander's march East?

A fever,which killed him.

 

[dafydd]

Whoever wrote this is WRONG:

Absolutely not. The person making the claim that aliens exist is responsible for supporting it. The OP has described some ridiculous scenarios and made some outrageous claims about an alleged -- but not demonstrated -- reality. He has offered nothing but arguments from incredulity and ignorance to support those claims. It is not up to anyone else to show why a fantasy isn't real. It is up to the person describing something that appears to be a fantasy to show that it is real. This burden of proof thing is grade school stuff. People shouldn't get past about 12 years old without understanding it. Unfortunately too many do. And plenty of them believe in aliens.

---

First, "I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALIENS."

Second, 'I' am evidence that 'they' (non-human E.T. intelligent beings) exist. Rramjet has provided plenty of evidence from a variety of sources. There exists in EVERY form of media you can think of 'record' of non-human E.T. intelligence.

That said this thread is NOT about arguing upon whether or not it is intelligent to ignore so much information from such a wide range of sources throughout time. I've personally created a fallacy just for folks like you. It is called the "Willful Ignorance Fallacy".

This thread acts participants to 'accept' that all the anecdotes about a non-human E.T. existence are indeed true, and asks that retorts be focused on techniques or manners of inviting 'them' to descend (again, as it were).

I've provided another similar example about how an as of yet un-contacted tribe might flag down a plane passing over. How would or could the tribe let it be known to those in the L.W.B. to land?

If you are trying to argue that I haven't provided you enough evidence, then this thread isn't for you. Go away.

You have provided no evidence.

 

[King of the Americas]

A fever,which killed him.

Ever read this:

329 BC:
Alexander the Great, via his historians: told of 2 strange
objects in the sky that dived repeatedly at his army as they
were attempting a river crossing. (Jaxartes River). The action
so panicked his elephants, horses, and men they had to abandon
the river crossing until the following day. They were described
as great silver shields, spitting fire around the rims.
Contributed by Thon"

---

If it is accurate, this is 'them' trying to deter or otherwise direct or misdirect an advancing army.