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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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Nope. If it drives it one way, it drives it another with equal force.
But it's worse than that. Newton says that the wheels at the ground will produce an equal and opposite force to the pushing. If you say the net force is increased then that is obviously wrong, and would result in spontaneous motion. Not even Aristotle, let alone Newton.

So you are saying that Newton says if the wind blows on a propeller - any size shape or pitch of propeller - and the propeller is geared to a wheel by an indeterminate gear ratio, and the radius of the wheel is undefined also, then the torque due to the forwards push on the prop multiplied by the radius of the wheel must always be exactly equal and opposite to the torque produced by the wind acting to turn the prop multiplied by an indeterminate gear ratio?

OK, so we've established that you don't understand NASA, and now you don't understand Newton either. Whatever next?
 
No meteorological text or authority will support averaging of the wind direction.

It is mind boggling how wrong you are Humber. All meteorological wind directions are always averaged. Instantaneous wind direction is meaningless. As usual it is lucky for you the Humberverse exists only in your mind. It would be fun to see you on a jet where the pilot and flight control systems were being fed raw instantaneous wind speed data instead of an averaged figure like 260 degrees 45 knots.
 
How they want to measure and verify their records is up to them. You have a better way? Start your own club, spend decades organizing competitions, events, and publications to establish a reputation among participants sufficient to make them care about what records you endorse, and then put your way into effect.

NALSA insisted on 3 wind-vanes and anemometer that were calibrated and certified. MetOne instruments was good enough to donate these units to the cause - complete with calibration certificates.

In addition to the numerous hand-held GPS receivers, we also used a number of carrier-phase GPS units that we developed for use in race cars. They're accurate to 2 cm.

I'd say this "sailing club" knows their stuff. They spent an awful lot of time working out the rules for this category, and they were quite thorough with the inspection of the vehicle and observation of the trials (or "trails" to humber).
 
Something just occurred to me... humber says we don't have a downwind cart at all, but rather a failed upwind cart.

All this time I've thought he was perhaps the biggest idiot in the world. But I think I have it all wrong. He's a failed genius.
 
It sounds like you forgot the wind again. All that matters is whether the thrust from the prop exceeds the drag force and efficiency losses from whatever is being used to spin the prop.

You will not get away with that. Everything remains the same, but I am using the heat from the brakes to drive the prop, rather than a generator.

If that strikes you as being absurd or impossible, is it because brakes slow a vehicle, and that I am proposing speeding it up by the brakes?

That is what you already have. A generator, which slows the wheel, to drive the prop, to make the cart go faster. Forgotten the wind?
Perhaps it's not a good idea to get physics from unqualified salesmen.
 
Something just occurred to me... humber says we don't have a downwind cart at all, but rather a failed upwind cart.

All this time I've thought he was perhaps the biggest idiot in the world. But I think I have it all wrong. He's a failed genius.

But you have made that cart...and that is hilarious.
 
NALSA insisted on 3 wind-vanes and anemometer that were calibrated and certified. MetOne instruments was good enough to donate these units to the cause - complete with calibration certificates.
Afraid not. Certification is not calibration. The accuracy of vanes and anemometers depends on the installation and use. The proximity of obstacles etc.

From NASLA
"Accurate wind measurements are difficult to make, given fluctuations in wind speed and direction over time and position. To resolve any reasonable doubts, the TAD team developed an effective and sophisticated system for measuring the wind field. Wind speed measurements from the craft itself were not used, as the TAD team had previously identified a roughly 1 mph favorable bias in wind speed measured at the front of the craft. The two stationary weather stations were used as secondary instruments. "

Developed a sophisticated instrument package. A borrowed Met One vanes? I mean, did you at least unpack it yourself?

1) If the vane were on the cart, there would be no need to calculate the true wind. Only the deviation of the vane and cart, which would be visible.

That is; when ddw, the vane will be along the line of the cart, and that is all you need to know. Putting the vane on a CV means that the true wind must be calculated, and introduces tracking errors between the CV and the cart.
The vane would provide visual evidence of ddw for NALSA, and for the video recording.

NALSA:
The true wind speed and direction were calculated from the vector sum of the speed, heading and apparent wind of the chase vehicle and the
speed and heading of the craft. There is some increase in measurement uncertainty from 'subtracting large numbers' effects. It is the feeling of the observers and TAD team that this uncertainty increase is not excessive and is an appropriate tradeoff for the advantages of taking measurements in closer proximity to the craft while avoiding the confounding effects of the large propeller.

How did you justify all those disadvantages to NALSA, on the basis of a small 1mph bias which could be easily calibrate out? What was the basis for the intelligentsia at "TAD" to think it was an appropriate "tradeoff"?

There are many problems with putting vanes on moving cars, but on the constantly accelerating CV, that is very bad news indeed.
When and object is moved through a fluid, it takes on added mass because of the laminar flow and that
Like this: Added mass = ma in the right pane.

attachment.php


Believe it or not, wind vanes have a specific design-dependent L/D ratio, and the force added by the acceleration of the added mass, makes a mess of that, and calibration goes out of the window. Not all vanes are "the same"

The general result will be to suppress the true wind in favour of the accelerating apparent wind. The wind direction readings will certainly be lower than shown, and averaging is a real boner.

2) There is nothing on the cart to tell you if you were going ddw.
No tell tale.
GPS will not tell you of the wind direction. The chart shows you following a fixed heading, with no attempt at all to follow the shifting wind shown by the black line of your chart.

3) Given the access you have to sport measurement tools. Then why didn't you use telemetry from the CV to the cart? That would inform you immediately of the wind direction. It would be quite easy to replace the GPS display with a wind direction indicator.

4) The vanes from MetOne are designed for fixed use, and to meet NIST standards of 10 minute averages, and not 10 seconds. To meet the standards, the station must withstand heavy winds, and that limits the performance of the vane to the point where they are not suitable for instantaneous readings. What did MetOne say about putting a vane on the cart?

In addition to the numerous hand-held GPS receivers, we also used a number of carrier-phase GPS units that we developed for use in race cars. They're accurate to 2 cm.
They are not certified tools in any way, and the 2cm is sales brochure fodder.
They are not "accurate to 2cm", but use RTK. That is a Doppler method, which allows the static position relative to the position obtained by the coarse-acquisition code sent from the satellite for use in domestic receivers, so limited by that.

The hand-held GT31 uses a new receiver chip from SiRF. That employs several patented methods, as well as undisclosed proprietary techniques, particularly around the FFT analysis. They will be more accurate than those dated and Rube Goldberg race-car units. Electronics moves fast.

When in motion, the Doppler shift reading is hard to maintain. Tracking depends many things including signal level, carrier noise and the PLL transient response, and must undergo some processing for HDOP etc.

The final result is derived by FFT analysis of the data stream, and will be no more accurate than 0.1m/s.
That may be adequate for speed, but not to measure small changes in acceleration, because or the error margin, and the 1 second update rate.

RTK
"By progressively delaying the local copy more and more, the two ( Doppler) signals will eventually line up properly. That delay is the time needed for the signal to reach the receiver, and from this the distance from the satellite can be calculated. The accuracy of the resulting range measurement is generally a function of the ability of the receiver's electronics to accurately compare the two signals. In general receivers are able to align the signals to about 1% of one bit-width.[1] For instance, the coarse-acquisition (C/A) code sent on the GPS system sends a bit every 0.98 microsecond, so a receiver is accurate to 0.01 microsecond, or about 3 metres in terms of distance."

You also have the receivers spaced apart and in line. The mentioned 2cm comes from the GPS carrier wavelength, so the antennas should be within that distance, or they will not read the same. They will be influenced by turning of the cart, in the same way that your hand moves faster then your elbow when waved. Where you not aware of that?

The GT31 has an internal patch antenna ( below the display), and should be placed back-to back, so that the antennas are as close as possible. Given that you have 3 on the cart, how did you know which was the reference device? Were you consistent in the selection of that device?

I'd say this "sailing club" knows their stuff.
I would say that the glove fits the hand.

They spent an awful lot of time working out the rules for this category, and they were quite thorough with the inspection of the vehicle and observation of the trials (or "trails" to humber).

With little basis other than "we feel that" and "in the view of".
But, you kept them away from public gaze, so that humber could not see bias or technical errors.
The "awful lot of time" seems to also include ad-hoc changes right up to the trial. The regulations are dated. "Revision 3 July 2010"
That suggest that the relationship of judge and contestant may not be as disinterested or impartial as would be expected.

A trail of trial trash.
 

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So you are saying that Newton says if the wind blows on a propeller - any size shape or pitch of propeller - and the propeller is geared to a wheel by an indeterminate gear ratio,
Not indeterminate. If it's 2:1 one way it's 1:2 the other.

and the radius of the wheel is undefined also, then the torque due to the forwards push on the prop multiplied by the radius of the wheel must always be exactly equal and opposite to the torque produced by the wind acting to turn the prop multiplied by an indeterminate gear ratio?
Force = torque/radius. So, yes.
Gearing is due to the differences of those radii.


OK, so we've established that you don't understand NASA, and now you don't understand Newton either. Whatever next?

I'm getting sick of being told that I don't understand this or that.
That NASA reference comes with some math, but I can expand on that, and go further into the derivation. If you, Spork or anyone else wants to tell me that I don't understand, then we can shoot it out using the math.
 
Not indeterminate. If it's 2:1 one way it's 1:2 the other.
And if it's not 2:1? This makes no sense.
Force = torque/radius. So, yes.
Gearing is due to the differences of those radii.
Either you are failing to explain unambiguously what you mean, or you are monumentally wrong.

For clarity: did you really mean to say that the wind, blowing on the static prop, will produce torque at the axle by pushing the cart forward but will also produce an equal and opposite torque by trying to turn the prop in the opposing direction, so the cart should not move away on its own?

If that is not what you meant, then what forces were you referring to as equal and opposite?

If that is what you meant then consider this: Imagine the case where the torques did balance. Now change one variable - either change the pitch of the prop, or change the propshaft-to-axle gear ratio or change the wheel radius. Now the torques cannot be equal and opposite any more.

If the wind force pushing the cart is F1 and the radius of the wheel is R1 then the forwards torque T1 is: T1 = F1 x R1.

If the torque on the prop is Tp and the gear ratio is -N:1 then the opposing torque T2 is: T2 = Tp x -N.

So your claim that T1 = -T2
requires F1 x R1 = Tp x N

Even if you believed there was a magical property of propellers which guaranteed a certain relationship between F1 and Tp, you cannot claim that T1 = -T2 for every R1 or N.
I'm getting sick of being told that I don't understand this or that.
If you explained what you meant more clearly, that situation might resolve itself one way or the other.
 
Either you are failing to explain unambiguously what you mean, or you are monumentally wrong.
For clarity: did you really mean to say that the wind, blowing on the static prop, will produce torque at the axle by pushing the cart forward but will also produce an equal and opposite torque by trying to turn the prop in the opposing direction, so the cart should not move away on its own?

When the prop is static or turning very slowly, the blade can be seen as a airfoil in a steady flow. There will be a drag force driving it forwards as a sail, and a lift force turning the rotor CCW.
CCW turns the wheels into the wind, but the drag pushes the cart downwind, so causing the wheels to turn CW. The two oppose, but overall the drag is greater, so it goes downwind.

If that is not what you meant, then what forces were you referring to as equal and opposite?
Push any object under any circumstance, and there will be an equal and opposite reaction. Newton.

If that is what you meant then consider this: Imagine the case where the torques did balance. Now change one variable - either change the pitch of the prop, or change the propshaft-to-axle gear ratio or change the wheel radius. Now the torques cannot be equal and opposite any more.
But that is how an upwind cart does what it does. It gears the turbine force until it exceeds the opposing drag. If there is not enough net upwind force, it gets blown down wind, just like the BB does.

If the wind force pushing the cart is F1 and the radius of the wheel is R1 then the forwards torque T1 is: T1 = F1 x R1
F1 generates an equal and opposite force at the ground. Torque in the shaft is that force divided by R1.

If the torque on the prop is Tp and the gear ratio is -N:1 then the opposing torque T2 is: T2 = Tp x -N.

Force on the prop becomes torque Tp in the shaft, which is then geared to -Tp*N =T2

So your claim that T1 = -T2
requires F1 x R1 = Tp x N
Not really.

Gears can work, but not as you seem think in this case.

1) Force downwind = wind force = Chassis drag force + Rotor Drag force
2) Force upwind = Rotor torque

The chassis drag is independent of any rotor force.
The rotor drag is related to the L/D ratio. The drag force does not appear as torque in the rotor shaft.

A gear ratio will not change those relationships, or ensure that the level of rotor torque is large enough. Gearing cannot oppose a larger force.

Even if you believed there was a magical property of propellers which guaranteed a certain relationship between F1 and Tp, you cannot claim that T1 = -T2 for every R1 or N.
If you explained what you meant more clearly, that situation might resolve itself one way or the other.

But, you are assuming that there in some ideal gear ratio, and that has been applied. Calculated, proven by test of the rotor in wind. A scale model would do. (NASA have made plans available for simple tunnels for use in schools.)
Not done.

What if instead, the rotor force is NOT geared down to be so low as to drive the cart backward, then what happens?

If the gears increase the turbine force, so there are two turns of the prop to one of the wheel, then one of the wheel turns two of the prop. But distance per turn is halved.
What do you think was the visible outcome of all that trial and error chain adjustment? The ratio was selected for prop speed and not reverse torque. Did they measure the torque?

Well before the cart got its coat of paint and fairings, I posted this. Note the increased bluff area and the note by the prop.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4108/bookmarked.png
 
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You will not get away with that. Everything remains the same, but I am using the heat from the brakes to drive the prop, rather than a generator.

If that strikes you as being absurd or impossible, is it because brakes slow a vehicle, and that I am proposing speeding it up by the brakes?


It is only you who it strikes as absurd, because you cannot/don't wish to understand it. The prop can generate thrust; that is obvious. The only question is whether the net thrust is positive. If prop thrust > negative thrust from drag after efficiency losses present in whatever is being used to turn the prop the cart speeds up. Steam, electricity, geared wheels, its all the same.

That is what you already have. A generator, which slows the wheel, to drive the prop, to make the cart go faster. Forgotten the wind?

Yes, you have forgotten the wind. It does not stop blowing just because you wish it did.
 
It is only you who it strikes as absurd, because you cannot/don't wish to understand it. The prop can generate thrust; that is obvious.
Video says 3W at 15 rpm. Obvious from the video, if you observe and then calculate. There has never been a rebuttal of that claim.

The only question is whether the net thrust is positive. If prop thrust > negative thrust from drag after efficiency losses present in whatever is being used to turn the prop the cart speeds up. Steam, electricity, geared wheels, its all the same.
The model, and the equation I derived from it, says that there will be a net force that is dependent on the cart speed, which is dependent on the net force. The circularity of the practical is in the math.

Yes, you have forgotten the wind. It does not stop blowing just because you wish it did.
There is no tailwind above WS and I have not "forgotten" your "wind".

I have changed the means of deriving energy from the wheel, from a generator to a heat engine. The torque on the shaft will be the same.
Braking is braking.
Some cars use regenerative braking, where the normal friction brake is replaced by a generator. They slow the car, not accelerate it.

Once again, all is the same - nothing about the wind changes - but only the way energy is obtained from the wheel.
The idea has no merit and the trials are junk.
 
Video says 3W at 15 rpm. Obvious from the video, if you observe and then calculate. There has never been a rebuttal of that claim.

The model, and the equation I derived from it, says that there will be a net force that is dependent on the cart speed, which is dependent on the net force. The circularity of the practical is in the math.

You have never shown any coherent math. In fact you cannot; because if you did it would become obvious even to you that your position is untenable.

How much thrust. How much drag. How efficient is the energy transfer. No rocket science involved.

There is no tailwind above WS and I have not "forgotten" your "wind".

Of course there is a tailwind. What do you think happens to it? Don't embarrass yourself again and talk about wind relative to the cart again. You have been told the wheels are turning the prop.

As usual you are lucky that pilots don't live in the Humberverse. In your world you would run out of fuel and fall out of the sky because wind disappears as soon as you are traveling faster than it.

Once again, all is the same - nothing about the wind changes - but only the way energy is obtained from the wheel.

Hey, you got something right!
 
When the prop is static...
... but overall the drag is greater, so it goes downwind.
A simple "No" would have sufficed
Push any object under any circumstance, and there will be an equal and opposite reaction. Newton.
Thank you for that insight. What I actually asked was which forces you were referring to. In other words, why did you reference Newton at all?
F1 generates an equal and opposite force at the ground. Torque in the shaft is that force divided by R1.

Force on the prop becomes torque Tp in the shaft, which is then geared to -Tp*N =T2
You do appreciate that you just used "the shaft" to refer to two different things, don't you? (The prop driveshaft and the axle.) This is the sort of confusion I was referring to.
Gears can work, but not as you seem think in this case.
I do not think as you seem to think I think in this case.
Gearing cannot oppose a larger force.
That is exactly what gearing can do. A gearbox trades speed for torque just as a transformer trades current for voltage.

But, you are assuming that there in some ideal gear ratio...
There may be a bit too much assuming going on. I don't recall remarking on ideal gear ratios, merely pointing out that there was a gear ratio, which would change the balance of torque at the axle. But of course then you told us gears can't do that...
 
yes.



Nope. If it drives it one way, it drives it another with equal force.
But it's worse than that. Newton says that the wheels at the ground will produce an equal and opposite force to the pushing. If you say the net force is increased then that is obviously wrong, and would result in spontaneous motion. Not even Aristotle, let alone Newton.

Congratulations Humber, you have misinterpreted Newton's third law such that nothing can accelerate, ever. The humberverse is indeed a strange place.
 
You have never shown any coherent math. In fact you cannot; because if you did it would become obvious even to you that your position is untenable.

How much thrust. How much drag. How efficient is the energy transfer. No rocket science involved.
That's bluster. I can expand on it no problem, but first you have to show where the simplified version is factually wrong.

Of course there is a tailwind. What do you think happens to it? Don't embarrass yourself again and talk about wind relative to the cart again. You have been told the wheels are turning the prop.
There is no tailwind. That is why the claim is "faster than the wind".
The cart goes "faster than the wind" so has not tailwind. That condition exists when the wind goes faster than the cart.

As usual you are lucky that pilots don't live in the Humberverse. In your world you would run out of fuel and fall out of the sky because wind disappears as soon as you are traveling faster than it.
They would, and thankfully, the pilots don't design the planes. Engineers do, and they have the foresight to include an engine.


Hey, you got something right!

And nothing on your side.
 
That's bluster. I can expand on it no problem, but first you have to show where the simplified version is factually wrong.

You have not presented any version.

There is no tailwind. That is why the claim is "faster than the wind".
The cart goes "faster than the wind" so has not tailwind. That condition exists when the wind goes faster than the cart.

The carts speed does not effect the wind. At least you are showing everyone how confused you are more clearly then usual. The cart is not a balloon. It is the wind ground speed differential which is being exploited.

They would, and thankfully, the pilots don't design the planes. Engineers do, and they have the foresight to include an engine.

The engine is not relevant; we were talking about the fuel. If point A to point B requires 3000 gallons with a 50 knot tailwind and Humber takes off with 3000 gallons in a 50 knot headwind, Humber falls from the sky. Presumably exclaiming the whole way down; but the tailwind should have disappeared! I was traveling at 300 knots. [Smash]
 
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