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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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:D
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It left stuff behind! ;)
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I don't expect to see a wind cart going up the 14 Freeway anytime soon.
The overpasses are too low! :rolleyes:
I did ride my motorcycle underneath the wing of Howard Hughes' A-20 when it was being towed from Santa Monica to Lancaster. It had to use the long way 'round, the vertical being so high.
 
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I amuse myself with the reel, pulling it up the incline with the thread spooling off the top, and off the bottom.. :)
It really isn't "intuitive" what happens, until you take the time to do it.

I'm sure you could amuse yourself equally with a ball of yarn.

Are you still here taking part in this pointless and boring discussion?
 
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I knew an engineer who responded "Yes" to the statement that "heating up a car's brakes would cause it to move".... as they got hot slowing it down, the reverse should work.
And another who opined that a rocket, like a Saturn V left its c.g. on the launch pad.

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But this downwind cart although it works, it has no use.
It does not work. Not as claimed. It is a sail cart, run under conditions and rules that allowed it to exploit changing winds and short term patterns.

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Folks long ago fingered out how to extract energy from wind, and the extractor need have no more mobility than the ability to point into the wind.
The mountains north of me have 1000s of these, taking advantage of the favorable westwinds at that location. It's so windy up there there are few branches on the west sides of the trees.. they get blown off before they can grown. The cart merely keeps artificers off the streets and out of the bars and the clutches of loose women, and consume material and efforts, and Internet band width.
There is more to it than that. Google funding, SJSU and NASA time and resources; all wasted. Readers of magazines such as Wired, misled.
Students building TM's and learning nonsense. We don't need any more engineers who think that heating the brake will drive the car.

And there are plans to use the ideas to generate energy. Probably generators that drive themselves into the wind. We don't need that to waste even more time and effort. There are already enough energy scams.

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And attracts the attention of those who tinker with collections of random parts and have in interest in assembling to do things with wind.
I have a house full of that crap. :)
And only occasional contact with loose women. (Sob! :blush:)

Tinkering is harmless enough, but this is more than that.
I have pointed to the absurdity of the brake, but the one that always gets the Carteers is my claim that it is a failed up wind cart. They can not accept that they have been so fooled in such an embarrassing way.

There is ample evidence that the rotor spins CCW (from the rear) when in a tailwind. The rotor is then a turbine to that wind, and the gears are set to drive the wheels (CCW), so into the tailwind. An upwind cart.

Yet, it goes forwards. That is simply the wind blowing directly on the cart's chassis and rotor as a sail. That force is larger, so the cart moves forwards. In other words, an upwind cart, with such appalling aerodynamic form, that it gets blown downwind.

The prop is all but useless. There is a video where the prop is spun by hand.

Every time a blade passes by the operator, he gives it a tug. The mass and size of the rotor are known, so it is possible to estimate its angular KE, at the indicated 15rpm.

By frame-stepping the video, the loss of that KE can be estimated from the fall in angular velocity between assisting effort from the operator. The loss of KE is a reflection of the work the prop does on the air. It is about 3W.
Of course that is a static case, but not unlike the cart when starting or at very slow speed ( 15 rpm represents about 5mph)

At the start. it's power is nugatory, so how can it possibly drive the cart?

You have a propeller anemometer. They are called that, but are in fact a turbine - they are driven by the wind.
The angular velocity is related to the wind speed, but falls if not directly facing the wind. Like this;

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Similarily, the force and power fall for a turbine when not directly facing the wind, and that applies to the cart. The power loss is the cube of that cosine.

That is why is is better off wind that not, and is slow to start. The rotor opposes all forces that drive the cart as a sail.

I drew this some time ago
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I'm sure you could amuse yourself equally with a ball of yarn.

Are you still here taking part in this pointless and boring discussion?

You have time for insults, but none to respond to your cart that accelerates when braked. When that is considered, why would it not be possible to build a failed upwind cart instead?


Or do you have a rebuttal?
 
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It does not work. Not as claimed. It is a sail cart, run under conditions and rules that allowed it to exploit changing winds and short term patterns.


There is more to it than that. Google funding, SJSU and NASA time and resources; all wasted. Readers of magazines such as Wired, misled.
Students building TM's and learning nonsense. We don't need any more engineers who think that heating the brake will drive the car.

And there are plans to use the ideas to generate energy. Probably generators that drive themselves into the wind. We don't need that to waste even more time and effort. There are already enough energy scams.



Tinkering is harmless enough, but this is more than that.
I have pointed to the absurdity of the brake, but the one that always gets the Carteers is my claim that it is a failed up wind cart. They can not accept that they have been so fooled in such an embarrassing way.

There is ample evidence that the rotor spins CCW (from the rear) when in a tailwind. The rotor is then a turbine to that wind, and the gears are set to drive the wheels (CCW), so into the tailwind. An upwind cart.

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That is why is is better off wind that not, and is slow to start. The rotor opposes all forces that drive the cart as a sail.
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I seem to see a nomenclature problem here.
In this shot from the video, the propellor is moving CW when viewed from the rear of the cart.
The wheels move to drive the cart forward.
The dingus that connects the two transforms the rotary motion of one to the other.
Discussing any braking is outside the scope of the condition. Getting the *********** thing moving is step one. We're still stuck there, apparently.
 

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I seem to see a nomenclature problem here.
In this shot from the video, the propellor is moving CW when viewed from the rear of the cart.
The wheels move to drive the cart forward.
The dingus that connects the two transforms the rotary motion of one to the other.
Discussing any braking is outside the scope of the condition. Getting the *********** thing moving is step one. We're still stuck there, apparently.

I saw that, and realised what you must have thought. Indeed the prop turns CW from the rear, and the wheels turn
CCW, so forwards. But, the video "Prop or Turbine"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nudBjrOF3LE
shows that it is a turbine turning CCW. When the chain comes off in one of the trials, the rotor begins to turn CCW.
ETA
This one. Near the end
http://vimeo.com/10476216
 
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I seem to see a nomenclature problem here.
In this shot from the video, the propellor is moving CW when viewed from the rear of the cart.
The wheels move to drive the cart forward.
The dingus that connects the two transforms the rotary motion of one to the other.
Discussing any braking is outside the scope of the condition. Getting the *********** thing moving is step one. We're still stuck there, apparently.

The wind puts a forward force on the propeller and cart, in the process that force induces a torque force on both the propeller and the wheels, that oppose each other. The size of the wheels, the gearing to the prop, and the prop's pitch are set in such a way as to give the mechanical advantage to the induced torque on the wheels. Using the same principle as the cotton reel pushed from below, or the under the ruler cart, or the walkway cart.

So the wind pushes the cart forward, the ground drives the wheels, and wheels turn the prop.

That's how it starts.
 
Braking the cart, accelerates it?


Yes, when the braking power is efficiently applied to generating thrust against a differentially moving fluid stream.

The efficiency [of the hypothetical "steam cart"] can be at least as high as the existing cart.


Not demonstrated. The Carnot efficiency is an upper bound on efficiency. That does not mean that any given heat engine will reach or get anywhere close to that efficiency. No existing technology permits the efficient conversion of heat from braking into rotary power. But efficient conversion of rotary power to rotary power on a different shaft is commonplace and straightforward.

Nothing changes in any respect, other than the generator is replaced with a brake. A generator is a transducer, converting mechanical energy to electrical energy. The heat engine is another type of transducer.


That is correct. In principle, any method of efficiently converting braking power into rotary power in the appropriate angular velocity ratios could be used to make a propeller cart go directly downwind faster than the wind. An electrical generator/motor should work, in principle and in practice, but has not yet actually been demonstrated. A geared shaft works, in principle and in practice, and has been repeatedly demonstrated. A heat engine could work in principle but not in practice with known materials and technology.

The BB is, and always was, a claim for over-unity.


It is clearly not. It is a claim that the energy of the relative movement of a fluid stream can be extracted and exploited. Every aspect of that claim, in general and as specifically applied to the behavior of the Blackbird, is amply supported by physical theory, mathematics, and practical evidence.

It is Spork who has the "hand-waving" and no mathematical support.


I do not require explanation or mathematical support from Spork (though his efforts to provide it have been appreciated). I can do my own mathematics and my own explaining, and I am quite satisfied that it can work as claimed.

A trial where he changed and controlled all the rules, has been used to claim that the cart works, but in fact, it remains the over-unity machine it always was.


The results of the trial are up to NALSA to decide, not me and not you. It's their trial and their record book. They have decided. You can try to get them to change their decision. I'm certain that you will not succeed unless you can produce much better arguments than you have so far in your thousands of pages of postings.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
I do not require explanation or mathematical support from Spork (though his efforts to provide it have been appreciated). I can do my own mathematics and my own explaining, and I am quite satisfied that it can work as claimed.

And I suspect that everyone here knows that I'm more than capable and willing to provide the explanations and support to anyone that genuinely wants them.
 
Yes, when the braking power is efficiently applied to generating thrust against a differentially moving fluid stream.
I have changed none of that. In the submission report, the cart is moving 20mph ( Vcart) in a 15mph (Vwind), downwind. That difference of 5mph is the headwind (Vp). The overall efficiency, n, is (0.85)^3 (85% at each of 3 steps)

Wheel and prop thrust are then related as;

F_Thrust = Drag_wheel* Vc/Vp*n

No matter what the speed of the cart or the wheel drag, thrust is always greater. Increase the drag, and the thrust rises even more.

Not demonstrated. The Carnot efficiency is an upper bound on efficiency. That does not mean that any given heat engine will reach or get anywhere close to that efficiency. No existing technology permits the efficient conversion of heat from braking into rotary power. But efficient conversion of rotary power to rotary power on a different shaft is commonplace and straightforward.
Red hot iron is 300 to 500 degrees C. A conventional high pressure steam power station has a typical efficiency of 60%. That is from heat to electrical power. A small unit can do better than that. But there is no need to convert to electricity; just drive the prop with a turbine connected to the shaft and fed with hot gas. Braking friction is the heat source.

That is correct. In principle, any method of efficiently converting braking power into rotary power in the appropriate angular velocity ratios could be used to make a propeller cart go directly downwind faster than the wind. An electrical generator/motor should work, in principle and in practice, but has not yet actually been demonstrated. A geared shaft works, in principle and in practice, and has been repeatedly demonstrated. A heat engine could work in principle but not in practice with known materials and technology.
What about a KERS, used in F1? They can store 400KJ. Attach one to the wheel and use that to drive the prop. It's a farce.
The rotor cannot gain energy from the wind, and the wheel must drive itself. The "gearing" that implies that it can, does not work in principle, and the brake and KERS examples break the mental illusion that it does.

It is clearly not. It is a claim that the energy of the relative movement of a fluid stream can be extracted and exploited. Every aspect of that claim, in general and as specifically applied to the behavior of the Blackbird, is amply supported by physical theory, mathematics, and practical evidence.
I doubt that. Please provide a reference that shows props "tack".


I do not require explanation or mathematical support from Spork (though his efforts to provide it have been appreciated). I can do my own mathematics and my own explaining, and I am quite satisfied that it can work as claimed.
Then how do you arrive at thrust?

The results of the trial are up to NALSA to decide, not me and not you. It's their trial and their record book. They have decided. You can try to get them to change their decision. I'm certain that you will not succeed unless you can produce much better arguments than you have so far in your thousands of pages of postings.
NALSA are a sailing club.
 
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And I suspect that everyone here knows that I'm more than capable and willing to provide the explanations and support to anyone that genuinely wants them.

But not the trial raw data. Do you still refuse to make that available?
 
I have changed none of that. In the submission report, the cart is moving 20mph ( Vcart) in a 15mph (Vwind), downwind. That difference of 5mph is the headwind (Vp). The overall efficiency, n, is (0.85)^3 (85% at each of 3 steps)

Wheel and prop thrust are then related as;

F_Thrust = Drag_wheel* Vc/Vp*n

No matter what the speed of the cart or the wheel drag, thrust is always greater. Increase the drag, and the thrust rises even more.


Red hot iron is 300 to 500 degrees C. A conventional high pressure steam power station has a typical efficiency of 60%. That is from heat to electrical power. A small unit can do better than that. But there is no need to convert to electricity; just drive the prop with a turbine connected to the shaft and fed with hot gas. Braking friction is the heat source.


What about a KERS, used in F1? They can store 400KJ. Attach one to the wheel and use that to drive the prop. It's a farce.
The rotor cannot gain energy from the wind, and the wheel must drive itself. The "gearing" that implies that it can, does not work in principle, and the brake and KERS examples break the mental illusion that it does.

They do no such thing. Did you even read Myriad's response? You are arguing against yourself again Humber.
 
How so? Details.

What do you mean details? He just clearly explained to you that your steam cart would work just fine if we had enough efficiency in the steam generator.

What I find hilarious is that this is about the hundredth time you have posted something which you think shows the cart is impossible when in fact it does the opposite.

Why don't you show some math on your steam cart to show why it won't work. You like math don't you? Don't worry about the efficiency, make it a variable. We can agree on that later.
 
What do you mean details? He just clearly explained to you that your steam cart would work just fine if we had enough efficiency in the steam generator.
You accept that a vehicle can be driven by the heat of its brakes?
That is not possible. That energy come from slowing the vehicle.
To say that can be used to accelerate the cart, is obviously nonsense.

What I find hilarious is that this is about the hundredth time you have posted something which you think shows the cart is impossible when in fact it does the opposite.
You will need to do better than just say it. Show where it "does the opposite"
If you willingly accept PM, then of course, there is no changing that, but it won't be very convincing to those who don't
If it's a hundred times, then it is a hundred times that you have refused to accept that by sheer denial.
In this case, you are now willing to accept the existence of a PM machine that you say the cart isn't. That well has no bottom.

Why don't you show some math on your steam cart to show why it won't work. You like math don't you? Don't worry about the efficiency, make it a variable. We can agree on that later.
There are many posts where it is claimed that efficiency is not important, so why do you make a demand of me?
I have shown that the proposed system matches the cart's efficiency, so that point is moot.

The point being that such a machine is absurd, but then so is the cart for exactly the same reason.
 
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I have changed none of that.


Which is why the "steam cart" could work in principle, though not in practice due to efficiency issues.

Red hot iron is 300 to 500 degrees C. A conventional high pressure steam power station has a typical efficiency of 60%. That is from heat to electrical power. A small unit can do better than that. But there is no need to convert to electricity; just drive the prop with a turbine connected to the shaft and fed with hot gas. Braking friction is the heat source.


In general, small heat engines are less efficient, due to greater heat losses (inevitably larger surface area to volume ratios throughout the system). No technology exists for efficiently containing and converting braking heat. Feel free to invent it, but until you do, your steam cart concept, though it works in principle, will not be implementable in practice.

What about a KERS, used in F1? They can store 400KJ. Attach one to the wheel and use that to drive the prop. It's a farce.


Storing the energy is not applicable here, where the goal is to transfer the power from one shaft to another, so KERS designs are irrelevant.

The rotor cannot gain energy from the wind, and the wheel must drive itself. The "gearing" that implies that it can, does not work in principle, and the brake and KERS examples break the mental illusion that it does.


The rotor cannot and does not gain rotational kinetic energy from the wind. It does, however, gain increased thrust from the wind. This thrust, applied to the frame of the vehicle including the wheel axles, provides the torque that turns the wheels. It works in principle and, with efficient means of power transfer from the wheels back to the prop, such as a geared shaft, it works also in practice.

The electrical and heat-engine brake examples are other ways that it could work, but with more complexity, expense, and lower efficiency (and not working at all if efficiency is too low). KERS are designed to store energy so they do not apply.

I doubt that. Please provide a reference that shows props "tack".


Your doubt does not matter.

Then how do you arrive at thrust?


Huh? When I want to thrust I usually push against something. I suspect that's not the question you meant to ask, but if you want a better answer you will need a more coherent question.

NALSA are a sailing club.


Yes. That's why their opinions about what land sailing records they decide to recognize matter, to people interested in land sailing, more than yours.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Which is why the "steam cart" could work in principle, though not in practice due to efficiency issues.
No efficiency issues. Practical examples of >60% can be readily found.


In general, small heat engines are less efficient, due to greater heat losses (inevitably larger surface area to volume ratios throughout the system). No technology exists for efficiently containing and converting braking heat. Feel free to invent it, but until you do, your steam cart concept, though it works in principle, will not be implementable in practice.
Power stations manage.
Don't like that? Then thermocouple or Peltier devices can be used to generate current directly from the heat.

Storing the energy is not applicable here, where the goal is to transfer the power from one shaft to another, so KERS designs are irrelevant.
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No more so than the prop. The energy is not stored for re-use, just part of the transfer.

The rotor cannot and does not gain rotational kinetic energy from the wind. It does, however, gain increased thrust from the wind. This thrust, applied to the frame of the vehicle including the wheel axles, provides the torque that turns the wheels. It works in principle and, with efficient means of power transfer from the wheels back to the prop, such as a geared shaft, it works also in practical

The cart is traveling 20mph, and the wind is 15mph.
F will be in the opposite direction, so opposing the cart.

attachment.php


The electrical and heat-engine brake examples are other ways that it could work, but with more complexity, expense, and lower efficiency (and not working at all if efficiency is too low). KERS are designed to store energy so they do not apply.
A more or less efficient PM machine?

Your doubt does not matter.
Meaning that you can't or won't supply a reference that supports tacking props?


Yes. That's why their opinions about what land sailing records they decide to recognize matter, to people interested in land sailing, more than yours.
No meteorological text or authority will support averaging of the wind direction. NALSA are not omnipotent, but a sailing club, who assigned one member using borrowed and uncalibrated instruments.
 

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