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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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So you simply accept, on authority, an explanation which merely remarks on a possible power source but does not explain in any way how that source could be exploited by the actual design. Oh, yeah, that must be it.
Keep in mind that humber has never posted his alleged exchange with the NASA engineer in full. And humber has a history of misquoting people or outright lying about what they said.

In his first response that was posted on TR the NASA engineer confirmed that DDWFTTW is possible with this design, for the same reason Bauer, Ruina, Drela, Gaunaa and Spork say it is possible. He also had no problem accepting the treadmill demonstration. So humber has to accept on authority these points too. :D
 
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And the "down chain crawler"... really...

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Look at your point A on the chain in picture 1 & 2. It moved from right to left. But the chain is supposed to move from left to right.
 
Look at your point A on the chain in picture 1 & 2. It moved from right to left. But the chain is supposed to move from left to right.

Indeed. The crawler moves in the same direction as the chain, faster than the chain: in the first two figures, compare the distance travelled by point A on the chain (right to left) to the distance travelled by the wheel (also right to left). The direction of rotation is contrary to what many people expect it to be.

Anybody who finds that surprising can try it out for themselves. All you need are some bits of Lego, or a yoyo, or even just an empty cotton reel and a strip of paper:

 
Keep in mind that humber has never posted his alleged exchange with the NASA engineer in full. And humber has a history of misquoting people or outright lying about what they said.

The email I am quoting here?
That one was to sent to Spork. He posted it at TR. Go Fetch
He dos not address all of the arguments I put to him. Power calculation has big hole in it.


In his first response that was posted on TR the NASA engineer confirmed that DDWFTTW is possible with this design, for the same reason Bauer, Ruina, Drela, Gaunaa and Spork say it is possible. He also had no problem accepting the treadmill demonstration. So humber has to accept on authority these points too. :D

Not quite. He thinks that it is possible. And describes a few means, some of which I have posted, but he thinks the "obvious" means is that the prop "slows down" the headwind and that drives the wheel. The "distance through the air" argument. That has been shown to not work mathematically. Prand over at Rational Skeptic has dome the math on that. He proposes that the current in the motor in the electrical model would show if it works, but that model fails too.

Ruina;
Paper rejected. Idea is from Scientifc American of 1975, describing a
water cart, not a wheeled cart. Uses Blackford's analysis ( Am journal of Physics) which calculated <WS for both up and downwind. Ruina takes that, and plays with prop parameters to achieve >WS upwind, but not downwind.
To this day those prop parameters remain the same. Current upwind carts achieve 65% <WS.

Drela;
Totally different idea. Does not use the "distance" argument. Power calculations 25% complete at best. Plays with disk actuator theory, so is momentum based. Power calculations 25% complete at best

Bauer: [/B] Different idea. Upwind turbine. Uses variable pitch prop to reverse thrust above WS. Achieved an anecdotal 40seconds above WS.
Gaunaa and Spork say it is possible. He also had no problem accepting the treadmill demonstration. So humber has to accept on authority these points too. :D[/QUOTE]

Gaunaa: Bits an pieces. Mostly like Drela/Blackford. Plays with losses and other parameters. Says upwind speed has not limit. Current limit 65%WS

Spork: Oh, yeah.
 
Look at your point A on the chain in picture 1 & 2. It moved from right to left. But the chain is supposed to move from left to right.

(1) Is correct. The chain will simply drag that wheel along at the same speed.

(2) That's the way the reel will roll. Other way it is dragged.
 
I mentioned that a closed venturi port would be like the same thing attached to the chassis, and so a source of drag.

It certainly would be a source of drag. Note, however, that the "would be like the same thing" part is just nonsense.
 
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Humber I beg you to get a kid's yo-yo and try this:

Put the yo-yo on the table with the partly-unwound string going off to your right. The yo-yo represents the cogwheel, the table is the rail and the string is the chain. OK?

Now gently pull the string to the right and watch which way the yo-yo moves and also how quickly it moves relative to your hand which is pulling the string.

Try it with the string wound under the yo-yo spindle and also flip it over and try with the string wound over the spindle.

With the string emerging from under the spindle (like the chain in (1) and (2) above) the yo-yo will move to the right, faster than your hand.

With the string running over the spindle (Like (3) and (4)) the yo-yo will still move to the right, but will move slower than the hand that pulls it.

Please try it.
 
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That would involve Humber DOING something.

Humber doesn't DO, Humber just SAYS.

BTW Humber, when did you SAY your propless cart video would be ready?

2009 if I recall...
 
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Humber I beg you to get a kid's yo-yo and try this:
I will find a child and steal his or her yo-yo.

Put the yo-yo on the table with the unwound string going off to your right. The yo-yo represents the cogwheel, the table is the rail and the string is the chain. OK?
Now gently pull the string to the right and watch which way the yo-yo moves and also how quickly it moves relative to your hand which is pulling the string.
Yes, I know about that JBTH. I have really lived.

Try it with the string wound under the yo-yo spindle and also flip it over and try with the string wound over the spindle.
With the string emerging from under the spindle (like the chain in (1) and (2) above) the yo-yo will move to the right, faster than your hand.
With the string running over the spindle (Like (3) and (4)) the yo-yo will still move to the right, but will move slower than the hand that pulls it.

Please try it.

Yes, I am aware of what you are saying, but also that the entire process is not what you may think it is.

To convince yourself that nothing special is going on, take the yo-yo and remove the string, but wind one turn around the axle. Maintain a little tension on the thread and pull it left and right. Like this.

attachment.php



Don't let the thread or the reel slide or allow any lifting. It helps if the reel is weighted, by a bolt through the central hole, perhaps.

ETA (Edit)
Now watch what happens to the hand that pulls the threads. One moves away from, and one towards the reel. Now flip it over to get the "over the top" version

The paper and reel video is misleading. I will finish that video, but in the mean time...The thread represents the chain.

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A reel can be rolled towards the hand which is applying F, but may also turn counter-clockwise (CCW), and roll away from the hand.
Assuming that the force is applied parallel to the floor ( no lifting of the reel), which way will it go?

a = inner radius
b = outer radius
Fd = Friction
F = Applied force
m= reel mass
I = reel moment of inertia
v= linear velocity
w = angular velocity (radians/sec)

Linear component:
Net force to the right = F - Fd
Acceleration dv/dt = F - Fd/m

Angular Component:
Net clockwise (CW) moment = b*Fd - a*F
Angular Acceleration dw/dt = (b*Fd - a*F/)I

When a wheel rolls with out sliding (pure rolling) the axle of the reel moves a distance equal to the circumference. So the linear velocity (the speed the axle moves) and the angular velocity ( the speed it turns) are related by

v = b*w

Meaning it travels 2pi*r with each turn.

The linear and angular accelerations are related as:

dv/dt = b*dw/dt

From a = f/m

(F - Fd)/m = b(b*Fd - a*F)/I

Rearranging to relate Fd in terms of F

Fd( I + mb^2) = F( I + mab)

Fd = F(I + mab)/(I + mb^2)


If the reel moves to the right, then both the linear and angular forces will be positive (to the right). That depends on the friction to the surface and how the force is applied. If pulled slowly, the reel will tend to roll with the hand, but a jerk will send it away.
It's a balance of the inertia of rotation and the friction to the surface, where the angular component is either positive or negative.

There is a third case, where there reel does not roll, but slides, so the angular component is zero. The reel is then just a simple mass, and dragged along as if it were a block. That may happen when the friction is very low. Wheels cannot roll without adequate friction.

The geared version is going to be bad. The most likely outcome is that the gear will turn CCW, and move to the left. To move it to the right, would mean it would be dragged by the chain at the speed of the chain, and horribly, if at all possible.
 

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That would involve Humber DOING something.

Humber doesn't DO, Humber just SAYS.

BTW Humber, when did you SAY your propless cart video would be ready?

2009 if I recall...

Mmm. Late last year? Maybe I don't feel the need to worry about whether you think they exist.
The TM is secondary, and has already been trashed. But, hat can be forgotten about or talked around. The trial is the thing.
 
There is only one way the cart could gain from the preceding wind, such that it can later accelerate is if it releases mometum stored drom that period.

No one but you has said, or believes, that the cart gained from the preceding wind. NALSA is saying exactly the opposite of what you think they are.
 
To convince yourself that nothing special is going on...
Nobody thinks there's anything special going on. It's entirely mundane. The only weird thing is that anyone disagrees about what will happen.
Don't let the thread or the reel slide or allow any lifting. It helps if the reel is weighted, by a bolt through the central hole, perhaps.
<snip>

If the reel moves to the right, then both the linear and angular forces will be positive (to the right). That depends on the friction to the surface and how the force is applied. If pulled slowly, the reel will tend to roll with the hand, but a jerk will send it away.
Yes, if it doesn't slip, the reel moves to the right, and it either moves faster or slower than the hand, depending on whether the thread is wound under or over the reel respectively.
It's a balance of the inertia of rotation and the friction to the surface, where the angular component is either positive or negative.
If you move gently enough, there will be enough friction to prevent any slippage, which is the case of interest.
There is a third case, where there reel does not roll, but slides, so the angular component is zero. The reel is then just a simple mass, and dragged along as if it were a block. That may happen when the friction is very low. Wheels cannot roll without adequate friction.
Yeah, but that's not very interesting, is it?
The geared version is going to be bad.
Bad? What sort of bad? The only thing which the gears change is that it becomes reasonable to assume that friction is very, very high and the amount of slip is zero. Otherwise it's exactly the same problem.
The most likely outcome is that the gear will turn CCW, and move to the left.
Incorrect. That is exactly the opposite of what will happen. That cannot happen.
To move it to the right, would mean it would be dragged by the chain at the speed of the chain, and horribly, if at all possible.
You are mistaken. The gearwheel version is just the same as the bobbin version but with very high friction. Think about it. Try it. Ask a friend. The gear teeth are effectively just a coarse non-slip surface on the bobbin.
 
No one but you has said, or believes, that the cart gained from the preceding wind. NALSA is saying exactly the opposite of what you think they are.

"In effect the higher wind speed before the measurement period got the craft close to its equilibrium speed more quickly but it would have gotten there if the wind had stayed at exactly 10 mph for the entire run."

Voodoo.
 
Nobody thinks there's anything special going on. It's entirely mundane. The only weird thing is that anyone disagrees about what will happen.
Yes. There is no advantage to be had. You may as well hope for a new use for bones or rocks.

Yes, if it doesn't slip, the reel moves to the right, and it either moves faster or slower than the hand, depending on whether the thread is wound under or over the reel respectively.
Flip the reel over and hey presto, the other version of the thing with no advantage at all.

If you move gently enough, there will be enough friction to prevent any slippage, which is the case of interest.
Yeah, but that's not very interesting, is it?Bad? What sort of bad?
The only thing which the gears change is that it becomes reasonable to assume that friction is very, very high and the amount of slip is zero.
Then the opposing force will be high. So the idea is to add more opposing force to make the reel go faster?

Otherwise it's exactly the same problem. Incorrect. That is exactly the opposite of what will happen. That cannot happen. You are mistaken. The gearwheel version is just the same as the bobbin version but with very high friction. Think about it. Try it. Ask a friend. The gear teeth are effectively just a coarse non-slip surface on the bobbin.

Then you can put the numbers in the math, but you will have trouble with the gears. The video of the reel and paper, is an example of sleight of hand.
The paper is lifted and the reel rolls along it.
 
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Good try. The point being that in 2009, I did not say I had the carts. I made the TM late last year, 2010. The year of our Lord Spork.

You said you were making a video long before that. Don't you remember "Negative drag" and "Cavitation in air"??
 
You said you were making a video long before that. Don't you remember "Negative drag" and "Cavitation in air"??

Somewhere in Cartville, there is a musky catacomb. Behind a pile of skulls, their sits an earthenware pot containing "things humber has said."
 
The geared version is going to be bad. The most likely outcome is that the gear will turn CCW, and move to the left. To move it to the right, would mean it would be dragged by the chain at the speed of the chain, and horribly, if at all possible.

I have a geared version: it works perfectly smoothly. It's made with Fischertechnik parts and it's not so pretty as the simple cotton reel and paper. Maybe I'll make a video of it someday, but not for humber's benefit: it wouldn't convince him anyway. He'd say it was an illusion, that something else was happening, that it isn't what's represented in the diagram, whatever.
 
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