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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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A team of Aero students from San Jose State University has built and demonstrated a Directly Downwind Faster Than The Wind cart in a “real“ wind.

I would rather say that it was mainly Spork and ThinAirDesign that built the cart and demonstrated the claim.
 
Ya, I'm amazed, going faster than the wind while going downhill.

The black line is horizontal, red shows the slope of the ground.
 

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Oh, so exact measurements are "estimates" now, I see.
 
i hate the thing. i just dont get it.

I'll try to take a stab at it. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

The prop and wheels are geared together. If you move the wheels so the cart moves forward, the prop spins in a manner that also pushes the cart forward (pushes air back).

In order for the cart to get started, the wind pushes the cart itself. There's no power from the prop - the whole thing is like a sail. That's easy enough to envision.

As the cart moves faster, the prop moves faster. This generates some thrust. However, this thrust is less than the wind speed. In other words if the wind is going at 10, the thrust from the prop is going to be less. The exact value is key, and beyond me because I've never learned about aerodynamics.

The point is that the thrust of the prop is adding some additional speed to the cart. It's not the sole driving force. So what you have is the wind pushing the cart plus the thrust of the prop. The two added together exceed the wind speed. This works because even as the cart outruns the wind, it's still in the wind (think of a stream rather than single thing "pushing").

The prop energy is derived from the difference between the wind and the ground. One is moving while the other is stationary. No matter where the cart goes in the wind, there is still that difference. Therefore, it can still tap into that energy and transfer it from the wheels to the prop.

It's a clever if impractical feat of engineering.
 
Impressive work, but nothing surprising. It's obviously possible, just a question of designing the cart well enough.

As the cart moves faster, the prop moves faster. This generates some thrust. However, this thrust is less than the wind speed.

How can thrust - a force - be less than a speed? They don't have the same units.

The point is that the thrust of the prop is adding some additional speed to the cart. It's not the sole driving force. So what you have is the wind pushing the cart plus the thrust of the prop. The two added together exceed the wind speed. This works because even as the cart outruns the wind, it's still in the wind (think of a stream rather than single thing "pushing").

When it's going faster than the wind, the force of the wind on the cart's body acts to slow it down.

The prop energy is derived from the difference between the wind and the ground. One is moving while the other is stationary. No matter where the cart goes in the wind, there is still that difference. Therefore, it can still tap into that energy and transfer it from the wheels to the prop.

That's right. The essential point is that the work done on the ground by the cart can be less than the work the air does on the cart, because the relative speeds are different.
 
How can thrust - a force - be less than a speed? They don't have the same units.
It's actually pretty easy to do so long as you're not bogged down with pesky definitions. Would you like me to explain what I meant or can you work it out on your own?
 
The recent Wired article has opened up this topic, and with even more bizarre claims that earlier. See "Planet Oil Barrel" of the Wired article.

The original and long-standing claim was that the cart would travel directly down wind, steady state. That claim included wind tunnel conditions, and that was the basis of the argument over the conservation of energy which such a cart would violate. Sleight of hand has allowed that claim to be dropped in favour of an ad-hoc trail, which does not support the original claim.

None of the former conditions have been met by the recent NALSA trail, and there is evidence of data tampering to disguise the changing wind, and so avoid the obvious rebuttal.

This thread concerns a cart in the wind, and I hope the moderators will keep that in mind. Currently, on other forums, Spork and his posse derail the topic with imaginary carts and cotton reels, to avoid answering to the test itself. One does wonder why if the record is so solid, that Spork feels the need to convince the last men standing.

The question has always been one of thermodynamics, and not simply of speed over land. It has been long established that sail boats can exceed wind speed, but ddw is a specific claim; that must be exclusively tested, and all other plausible explanations eliminated if the claim is to be valid.

The employed wind instruments are designed to meet NIST standards for stationary weather stations, and that poses some problems for the measurements from a moving vehicle, but the NALSA data is all the is available, so I will work with that.

This chart was produced by Spork and not NALSA. TAD had free access to all the data, and that certainly is not acceptable.

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The first thing to note is that the cart is about 8 degrees off the wind at the start, and is pushed to above the nominal wind speed of 10mph. As soon as the pushing ceases, acceleration rapidly falls until the wind changes at 588990, at which point the cart begins to accelerate. Note that the cart's acceleration is least when close to ddw. That is contrary to NALSA's conclusion that it is best when ddw.

The straight (black) line between 588990 and 588997, indicates a constant change in wind direction of 10/7 = 1.4 degrees/second. It is not just changing, but turning.For the remainder of the trial, the wind is constantly changing and turning, so opening up opportunities for tacking, crosswinds and momentum storage to be responsible for the performance.

None have been eliminated by NALSA. In fact, the rules allow for at least one plausible mechanism involving the rotor and chassis:

"Comment on Rule S2:... Stored energy in the form of momentum of the yacht, its wheels or other normally moving or flexing parts of the yacht is allowed."

That alone disallows the trial for the purposes of the original claim.

The cart is pushed to 40% of the record speed, and gains 3500J ( in the 295kg chassis) and that is energy external to the wind. That is another violation of the claim, unless the cart is shown later to be steady state, and it is not. Unless the cart reaches a constant speed, it does indeed matter "how it gets to windspeed". The cart is allowed to start when it pleases, be pushed, or wait until short-term wind patterns allow for "success". That is why steady-state is a critical parameter. NASLA concerned themselves with only the top speed, and ignored all else.

There is more to be extracted on that topic, but the record itself, as defined by NALSA, is suspect due to data tampering and instrument limitations.

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There are clear differences between NALSA's data and the orange chart.
( I have appended the windspeed data to this chart.)

The NALSA chart shows the wind turns South at 8.8 seconds into the measurement period, but about 4 seconds on Spork's chart. The measurement point at 589065.8, also shows different wind patterns at that time.

The NALSA chart shows the wind changes rapidly; 20 degrees in 0.2 seconds, if the data is correct. That is not ddw, nor like a wind tunnel no matter how "averaged". With that level of energy input, the question of the Conservation of Energy becomes moot.

For the 10 second test period, NALSA use a "10 second average" which is simply the arithmetic mean of all the samples within that period, resulting in -4.1 degrees. That is meaningless in any context.
NALSA's chart is the difference of cart and wind. Averaging, as NALSA have done, would allow a jibing cart to average to zero.

But, that is quite obviously not the method used to obtain the wind data in Spork's chart. A likely explanation for the delay, and the smoothed wind changes, is that the data has been low-pass filtered. That process has not been made explicit, and is a violation of NALSA's regulations.

It is claimed that the cart accelerates through the speed measurement period of 3 seconds. That will be hard to sustain. The GPS speed data, from which the acceleration is derived, is updated once a second (1Hz). NALSA took the extraordinary step of interpolating that to 5Hz.
The GT31's speed "accuracy" is given at 0.1m/s, but that is subject to many factors that are perhaps best explained later. But, it is too low to support the small change in speed, and so prove acceleration.

Spork may claim that he has "some sort of record" forged between he and NALSA, but has not met his original claim, yet he allows the names Prof Allain and Charles Platt to be sullied upon that basis. He can keep his "record" but should withdraw his remarks concerning proving anything,
 

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Humber's observations might carry some weight if only the cart barely exceeded these supposedly erroneous windspeed measurements. In fact the cart reached 2.8x windspeed.

It works, as indeed it should work. Though it's very counter-intuitive on even the fifth glance and eight explanation.

Humber has devoted years and countless posts of DDWFTTW denial in the endless discussion of this matter over at the talkrational forum and is frantically seeking an 'out', however flimsy.

The ThinAirDesigns guys did a treadmill test - starting about 30 seconds in -
that really rendered the life-size design redundant. But that would have destroyed all the fun and satisfaction for them ;)
 
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And what is "counter-intuitive" about a tacking cart? The claim was explicit and unequivocal - ddw, steady state. Where there crosswinds on the TM, or is that no longer the model of proof?
In this forum, I described a cart that could exploit short term wind patterns to exceed the wind. The number of multiples is not relevant, only the power limit that governs final speed. That applies to all tacking craft. Ice-carts do it best, because they have the lowest losses. Why would I be surprised by the BB? It's done what I said it would do, and before it was even conceived.
Like so many of the vainglorious articles on this cart, the Wired article maintains that those like Platt, Allain (and Kammen) are "too stubborn to admit they are wrong" when they are not. It's a sham.
BTW. I have a cart that travels up the belt, without a prop. But that is not the topic of this thread.

ETA: About the time. Of what importance is that to you? How many years has James Randi devoted to debunking woo? Patience and persistence are entry level requirements.
 
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One does wonder why if the record is so solid, that Spork feels the need to convince the last men standing.

Not true; he's been ignoring you for almost two years now and has no problem at all with leaving you standing in your self-imposed intellectual wasteland.

The real question is why you insist on being the last man? I don't think there's a prize for that.
 
Humber, did you ever figure out that a stationary wind tunnel and a treadmill in still air are precisely the same thanks to relativity? Or do you continue to insist that kinetic energy is somehow absolute?
 
And what is "counter-intuitive" about a tacking cart?

A prop-powered cart "tacking" with slightly variable and slightly off-true tail winds :eek: that manages a peak of 2.8x average windspeed?

Show your maths or show your wind-tunnel trials.
 
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